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I might just do them on the fence - Page 2

post #21 of 40
It sucks that it's pertussis you're freaking out about. It's the most common VPD of the ones that really suck, but there's not a lot of good science out there to provide you with the facts you need.

You sound like you're sort of needing someone to give you "permission" to vax.
Only you can give yourself that. But I will say that most fully vaxed kids seem to be fine, and if there was a vax I'd consider giving a baby, it would probably be the DTaP. But I'm not sure, either. If you were freaking out over any other VPD I'd probably be able to help you out, but all I can say is most un-pertussis-vaxed kids are fine, and most pertussis-vaxed kids are fine. The vax can be bad, but it's usually ok, it seems.

Honestly, I'm really starting to think you should get the vax for your own mental health. It's not likely that your baby is going to catch pertussis, but it's possible. And I don't think you could handle it if he did.

Most non-vaxers just hope their babies don't catch pertussis while they're under 6 months, but expect it to happen eventually, and are ok with that. The vax has a huge failure rate, so any difference there isn't that big.

But it sounds like if you don't vax, and your baby ends up with WC, you are just going to hate yourself. And that's no place to be.
post #22 of 40
I am also having the same worries about vax or not and I completely understand where you are coming from. I find that if I think about it as selecive/delayed for now, until I know more, then I haven't ruled it out or not. Maybe that's the easy way out, but its working for now. The thing is that vaxs are really for such a tiny bit of possible sicknesses that my/our kids could possibly get, I don't know if its really worth it, kwim.

As for WC, I wanted to tell you a quick story about that:
When I was in college, I went to babysit for two kids once and the mom said they had WC and she would pay me either way, if I didn't feel comfortable staying. I truly didn't really know what it was so I stayed. They did have terrible sounding coughs but otherwise it seemed like (since they were otherwise healthy kids) they were dealing with it okay. I wish I had known to ask if they were vaxed or where they got it from but I didn't know any better. But they were fine.

In any case, as long as you are tuned into your kid, know about the different illnesses, and can feel 'right' about your decision(s), then you will have done the right thing.
post #23 of 40
Do you think you will continue to feel this way about every potential vaccine mitigated disease? Do you have a general feeling about the human body? I can't remember your sig - did you have a natural birth? A home birth? What I am getting at is, how well do you think the body works? To me, this is the fundamental question at the heart of this debate.

It may not be the question for everyone, but the more research I slog through, the more I am convinced that the answer is not out there in the science alone. There is science all over the place, and it can be used to tell a lot of different stories. The answer lies partially in the root assumption about whether vaccination makes intuitive sense. If it seems logical that medical science can possess sufficient knowledge of the immune system to make this type of preemptive strike, and anticipate all the consequences or at least deal with them, then that logic will probably lead to an acceptance of the benefits of the vaxes. If, on the other hand, you see the body as a unique and balanced organism that works better when encouraged more gently (regular, low-level exposure to pathogens, rather than intensive, IV exposure), then you might conclude otherwise. I actually appreciate it when my ds is around sick kids some of the time, because I think his immune system benefits from that.

Some folks may see this as an unscientific approach, but I think we always have to assess our root assumptions. If you know where you stand, you are more likely to make a decision that will not cause cognitive dissonance down the road. HTH?
post #24 of 40
Thread Starter 
mamakay,Thank You you had it right on
Quote:
You sound like you're sort of needing someone to give you "permission" to vax
Sad but true ...

wallacesmum,Thank You as well...
Quote:
Do you think you will continue to feel this way about every potential vaccine mitigated disease? Do you have a general feeling about the human body? I can't remember your sig - did you have a natural birth? A home birth? What I am getting at is, how well do you think the body works? To me, this is the fundamental question at the heart of this debate
I will answer your questions Do you think you will continue to feel this way about every potential vaccine mitigated disease? No Polio,is off the list,Prevnar off,Depthiria and tetuns would be off but there part of the dtap and its the pertussis one I want,and MMR are off the list,so it comes down to hib and dtap that I am wanting to get.....

Do you have a general feeling about the human body? Well I know its a wonderful thing,that can heal itself and take on alot,but when it comes to my lo's I want to do whats best for them...But I know by my post it sounds like I have no faith in what the body can do...

And the others its nice to know that I am not the only one who worries,its just I never thought I would ever questin vaxes,and I got on my sassy horse and read up on it and it really makes you sick by what you read its scary,and its stressful to be at a place where you want to get a few beacuse why get a vpd when you can prevent it by a vax,but its not that simple,I know better and I know whats in the vaxes and what they can do and I know what not doing them can do and I am at a place where I cant make a decisian and its gettying to me damed if you do damed if you dont is how I feel
post #25 of 40
Well, there's no cut and dry right or wrong answer here. There are just too many unknown for it to be that simple.
If you choose to get the DTaP, it's ok. No one is going to judge you for making an informed decision. Er, or as an informed decision as one can make here.

Quote:
its gettying to me damed if you do damed if you dont is how I feel
I understand that feeling. But really, it's "probably fine if you do, fine if you don't".

Whatever choice you make, understand that you informed yourself as well as possible (and you have!) and know that the decision you came to was what seemed to be the best option for you and your family.
post #26 of 40

A Couple More Thoughts

Hey!
I know it's hard to know what to do with all of the information out there. There are studies from everyone with findings that can be tweaked to fit the cause. It's really hard to find middle-of-the-road, unbiased information.
You asked for some sources that we used, and I have a couple that are really down to earth that I find truly useful:
- A User-Friendly Vaccination Schedule, http://www.lewrockwell.com/miller/miller15.html
Best article ever! (IMHO)
- National Vaccine Information Center, http://www.909shot.com/Default.htm

So many sites, whether for or against, are alarmist. The thing is, with very few exceptions, kids aren't dying of the diseases for which there are vaccines. Part of that is due to the vaxes themselves, but part of it is also because of what we know now. We know to wash our hands, we have access to clean water, we can watch for signs of illness, and if a child does get an illness, there are treatments and medicines readily available.

I agree with angel, who said to look at the diseases, rather than at the vaccines. I know that Hib (which is a type of meningitis) struck me as a real threat, so we did vax our son for that. He's now 14 months, and the Hib is all he's gotten so far. We're delaying all other vaxes until he's 2, because most of the research I did indicated that 2 was a safer age. Also, we (DH & I) didn't get vaxes before age 18 months, so I felt OK with the decision.

We took Jack (then 7 months) to see his grandparents in PA, and they had an open house for him. A college friend of ours came and she said, "Well, I have this thing called whooping cough, but I'm not contagious anymore, and I figured that Jack was probably vaccinated anyway." I told her that he wasn't, but I was glad that she came anyway. We knew to watch for signs of WC, but Jack was quite healthy for months and months, until he got a cold at Halloween. (No trick or treating, poor little bear.)

The pertussis (WC) vaccine does wear off. A book that I read indicated that the germs that cause WC might be mutating and are becoming resistant to the vaccine. Most cases of WC seem to be found in vaccinated school-children. I recently researched this because someone on another set of forums was spreading gloom and doom about WC. I personally am not worried about it, as deaths are rare and tend to occur in babies under the age of 6 months.

But that's just me. You do need to make the most informed choice you can, and if fear plays a role, that's not a bad thing. I second mamakay who said:
Quote:
Whatever choice you make, understand that you informed yourself as well as possible (and you have!) and know that the decision you came to was what seemed to be the best option for you and your family.
Take a deep breath and know that you are OK!
post #27 of 40
Aquafina:

I feel exactly the same way! I won't even let my anyone touch my baby without running and getting a wipe to disinfect him! I'm not really like this with anything else.

Funny, too, it's Hib and pertussis that I've come down to. Scary, I just read that Hib is more of a threat between 6 and 12 months. I didn't know this until this week and my baby will be turning 6 months soon. I wonder if I have unknowingly put him in harm's way. Still, I am comforted by the Hib/SIDS issue and the diabetes issue. I like to think that God has carried me this far in my confusion to keep me from making a decision and in that way protecting my baby from the vaxes. I am still terrified of pertussis, but also the vax. And, I don't want my baby getting diptheria, and not tetanus (at least not tetanus just yet). :/

One of my friends has a an 14 month old and two year old and they are totally not vaxed and she lugs them everywhere and let's them play with other kids and they are fine. She even brought the baby to the hospital when I had my son and let him crawl on the floor and everything! :

Brings me comfort only for a second...
post #28 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoratheExplora View Post
One of my friends has a an 14 month old and two year old and they are totally not vaxed and she lugs them everywhere and let's them play with other kids and they are fine. She even brought the baby to the hospital when I had my son and let him crawl on the floor and everything! :
Sounds like me. We just do not worry about germs around here. I mean, we wash our hands after we use the bathroom or clean the guinea pig cage, but other than that, germs aren't on our radar. It did take a while to get to that point, though. Some of us are natural worriers. Eventually you stop worrying so much about germs and start worrying about whether or not they're going to knock themselves unconscious if they keep falling while running circles around the coffee table or how you're going to keep your extended family from feeding them "healthy" treats loaded with artificial sweeteners when you go visit.
post #29 of 40
I think I can relate. I'm still not really confident either way in this decision. For now I am not getting dd any more shots and not getting ds any shots. But like you, the more I read the more confused I become. How does one know which "expert" to believe? Both the vaccinations and the diseases frighten me. With my dd I wasn't worried at all about the vaxes because I didn't realize there were so many risks involved. The pamplet they give you at the doctors office makes it seem like there's one in a million chance your child will have a reaction. But now that I've become more informed, it's making the choice more difficult. It seems like either way there's a chance my child could either have a reaction to the vax or get a disease if I don't vax. What if I don't vax and then he gets sick? I will blame myself. What if I do vax and he has a reaction? Then I will blame myself. It seems like a no win situation and I wish I could be as committed to one side of this issue as I am on most things, I really envy the people who have made up their mind because I'm having a hard time.
post #30 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeThinkinMama View Post
But like you, the more I read the more confused I become. How does one know which "expert" to believe? Both the vaccinations and the diseases frighten me.

I didn't listen to any of the experts- I researched the numbers.

I am frightened by neither the vaccines or the diseases.

I would have a hard time forgiving myself if my child was damaged by something I chose to inject into her.

If she got sick- that's just part of life- everyone gets sick.

-Angela
post #31 of 40
Thread Starter 
I still have not done them
post #32 of 40
are you breastfeeding? have a cool article on hib and breastfeeding. not too common in breastfed babies.
post #33 of 40
I just want you to know that you are not alone, and your anxiety does not mean you have any kind of anxiety disorder or problem. The decision not to vaccinate is a huge one to wrap one's head around; there are so many unknowns and so much to learn that's different from the normal way you've probably been accustomed to thinking about disease and health all your life. The shift in paradigm it requires is not going to just happen naturally overnight. I'm dealing with some of this myself, so I just want to encourage you to hang in there and keep examining your fears and anxieties and see if it's something you can live with or if you'd rather not. Either way, I for one would never roll my eyes at you.

Like Plummeting said:

Quote:
It did take a while to get to that point, though. Some of us are natural worriers.
post #34 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeThinkinMama View Post
It seems like either way there's a chance my child could either have a reaction to the vax or get a disease if I don't vax. What if I don't vax and then he gets sick? I will blame myself. What if I do vax and he has a reaction? Then I will blame myself. It seems like a no win situation and I wish I could be as committed to one side of this issue as I am on most things, I really envy the people who have made up their mind because I'm having a hard time.
I feel the exact same way.
post #35 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by alegna View Post
I didn't listen to any of the experts- I researched the numbers.

I would have a hard time forgiving myself if my child was damaged by something I chose to inject into her.

If she got sick- that's just part of life- everyone gets sick.

-Angela
That's true about the injection part, and yes getting sick is a part of life, but what if someone like my 5 month old DS got pertussis? (which is a disease I'm afraid of) From what I've read, that is extremely serious for a child that young. I really don't think I could handle that (I was a wreck when DS had an upper resporatory infection and he was miserable), and wouldn't that be one of those situations where you would say, "if only we would've vaccinated....." I'm not disagreeing with you, just asking your opinion? My DS is vaccinated for nothing, we are doing selective and delaying, but I am always worried about germs as well......it must be nice to be so confident about this. I'm sure I'll get there eventually, when DS is a little older.

Aquafina---I know how you feel. :
post #36 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Mommy*J View Post
That's true about the injection part, and yes getting sick is a part of life, but what if someone like my 5 month old DS got pertussis? (which is a disease I'm afraid of) From what I've read, that is extremely serious for a child that young.

My 5-month-old did get pertussis. It was really not a big deal. I promise. She didn't need medication. She didn't need to be hospitalized. She just wasn't sick. She had bad coughing spells about 10 times a day, but she never turned blue and she was always fine literally the second they were over with. I know two other infants who got it who also weren't very sick. One was only 6 weeks old at the time. Neither of them required treatment, either. Pertussis can be serious in an infant, but complications are still not really common - not extremely rare, but not exactly common, either.
post #37 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plummeting View Post
She had bad coughing spells about 10 times a day, but she never turned blue and she was always fine literally the second they were over with. I know two other infants who got it who also weren't very sick.
According to the CDC:

Among infants aged <6 months . . . a cough with whoop or with paroxysms may be absent.
post #38 of 40
This is a great discussion on this thread. : I am going to follow up on some of the links.
I have always felt "damned if you do, damned if you don't" about the vaccination issue, like some pp's stated.
I happen to have a career where I work with children with autism, so I am very close to folks who are very regretful that they had vaccinated their babies. Even still, I am fearful to totally not vaccinate.:
post #39 of 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural Mommy*J View Post
That's true about the injection part, and yes getting sick is a part of life, but what if someone like my 5 month old DS got pertussis? (which is a disease I'm afraid of)
5 month olds are at risk for pertussis vaccinated or not. The efficacy of the vaccine is so low that the two doses they'd have by 5 months are not really worth much at all...

-Angela
post #40 of 40
Thanks for the info Angela, and actually I was talking with our family doc today (who himself is anti-vax but respects his client's decisions) and he answered many of my questions about the diseases and vaccines. I feel much more informed now(even though I still have research to do), and I'm feeling much less worried about the diseases, even pertussis, because he told me what you just did---the vaccine isn't very effective at all.

If I decide to vax DS for anything, it won't be for another couple of years.

Now, even though I'm feeling more confident with my decision, I might still have questions that I'll think of in the future, because I constantly have my mom and dad telling me DS will die if he gets the some of the diseases he's "supposed" to be vaxed for. : The funny thing is, they don't even know for sure if he's vaxed or not, because I tell them (nicely) my son's vaccination schedule isn't up for discussion.
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