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Anti-Video Game resources - Page 6

post #101 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meg Murry. View Post
Besides Jane Healy's EndangereEndangered Minds? Actually this is one of the best anti-video game resources I can think of.
Thank you so much!!! I placed Endangered Minds on hold at the library and am REALLY looking forward to reading it! Whatver "this" was linked to isn't working for me.

Amy in NH-I'm still checking out all the links. I really appreciate you spending so much time gathering them all! I'm eager for my DH to return from his trip so we can read them together. Thanks again!
post #102 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar View Post
Jimibell,
I have been reading your posts with interest. I'd love to hear how you'd respond to the situation we found ourselves in with our child...

Briefly, we didn't own a TV until our child was nine and he wasn't cared for by anyone else so it isn't that he saw TV or movies at the babysitters. He was not on the computer before school age and then only to write down fantasy stories. We had zero interest in early academics and didn't have early academic type resources in our house (leappad, magnet letters, workbooks, phonics games or whatever).

By the age of three or four our son was regularly reading not just any children's book he could get his hands on but encyclopedias and yes, he was in love with an adult level book about chess that he found on a shelf in the living room. This was 100% child driven. We weren't aware he could read until he could read pretty much at a middle school level. He was a very asynchronous developer with his intellectual development far beyond his development in other areas. I get from your other posts that you think this is bad for kids when they aren't more even in their development or when they don't progress according to the formula of developing imaginative, physical, social and sensory areas first.

So, as a parent what would you have done about this? Would you have removed books from the house? Would you have redirected your child if they started to talk about something you viewed as being intellectual? At point if this was your child would you view it as overly rigid and just weird if someone else insisted they weren't developing in the right way? If you saw a child was incredibly happy with things you viewed as intellectual (like chess or reading) how would you reconcile that with your belief that this shouldn't bring them such happiness or they should be exploring the world in a different way?
I can't say exactly how I would react as I do not have this experience and I have never met anyone with this type of experience. You have to see that even assuming there are individual cases such as your dc that it is not the norm. I have throughout talked about the normal growth and development of a child's brain. I have never once said that there are no exceptions.

It seems that I just happened to attract the attention of the all of the parents with highly intellectually gifted children here in this thread.

I am not an expert but I have been around A LOT of children and I see the affects of TV on them. I also see MANY MANY parents who are hurrying their child along to learn the ABC (at 1 or 2) and then read at 3. Just about every day I bear witness to this. This is the type of behaviour that I find unhealthy.
post #103 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
I am not an expert but I have been around A LOT of children and I see the affects of TV on them. I also see MANY MANY parents who are hurrying their child along to learn the ABC (at 1 or 2) and then read at 3. Just about every day I bear witness to this. This is the type of behaviour that I find unhealthy.
That does seem to happen a lot and it bugs me also to see parents quizzing kids and encouraging kids to memorize things as if childhood is a race. But the moms on this thread seem to be the follow the child's lead types. I've even chosen to homeschool because I don't want my child pushed academically or artistically.

Some kids just are interested in different things than others. And even though I knew intellectually that kids are very different, nothing hammered it home more than having my own child who is so very different than anyone else I've ever experienced.
post #104 of 125
Thanks for answering.

Personally I feel pretty uncomfortable with the idea that there is one NORMAL way for children to develop and that all children should develop according to a particular linear sequence in a particular way or they are somehow unhealthy. I feel equally uncomfortable if this argument is being made by someone advocating teaching babies to read as I do if it comes from someone saying that people who read early are somehow unhealthy and will have social problems. It is the rigidity of pushing ONE way for children to be and labeling those that don't fit as abnormal or unhealthy that I find disturbing. I wonder when there is this kind of extreme rigidity that there is one right way to develop, why there is so little faith in the process of development.

For my part, I'll say I'm also around a lot of children. I've seen kids who learn academics "early" to ones who learn it "late" and many in between. I've seen kids who are more dreamy and imaginative and ones who are more literal and analytical. What I have learned in this process is that there are MANY right ways of being and we are lucky for this diversity. Someone needs to grow up to be an engineer or a nuclear physicist and someone to be a poet or an artist.

I urge you Jimibell to listen less to the shoulds of how you believe kids should be and to stop looking so hard for someone to blame when they deviate from your beliefs about development and to spend more time really listening to who these individuals are.
post #105 of 125
Roar,

I was just trying to think of some ideas....one is I would get that child outdoors as much as possible!!!
and get him/her? moving a lot to balance the large amount of intellectual activity....
post #106 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evermom View Post

Some kids just are interested in different things than others.
Yes, and I'm bothered by the underlying anti-intellectualism of labeling certain interests (like chess) as being less appropriate because they don't look like what someone thinks childhood should be like. To me that seems no more appropriate if the person likes fairies and wool than if they like Disney and batteries. Either way is about saying there is a right set of things for normal children to care about. Times like this I think about some adults I know who really discovered their life's passion very very young.
post #107 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roar View Post
Thanks for answering.

Personally I feel pretty uncomfortable with the idea that there is one NORMAL way for children to develop and that all children should develop according to a particular linear sequence in a particular way or they are somehow unhealthy. I feel equally uncomfortable if this argument is being made by someone advocating teaching babies to read as I do if it comes from someone saying that people who read early are somehow unhealthy and will have social problems. It is the rigidity of pushing ONE way for children to be and labeling those that don't fit as abnormal or unhealthy that I find disturbing. I wonder when there is this kind of extreme rigidity that there is one right way to develop, why there is so little faith in the process of development.

For my part, I'll say I'm also around a lot of children. I've seen kids who learn academics "early" to ones who learn it "late" and many in between. I've seen kids who are more dreamy and imaginative and ones who are more literal and analytical. What I have learned in this process is that there are MANY right ways of being and we are lucky for this diversity. Someone needs to grow up to be an engineer or a nuclear physicist and someone to be a poet or an artist.

I urge you Jimibell to listen less to the shoulds of how you believe kids should be and to stop looking so hard for someone to blame when they deviate from your beliefs about development and to spend more time really listening to who these individuals are.
points taken.

do you not think that there is a "normal" physiological process that occurs in growth?

When you go to the doctor and get a well-baby (if you do that, I know some don't) they have those little cards that ask questions like, "does your baby crawl yet?" "does your baby recognize his name", etc....from your post I am supposing that you find these also rigid?

if so, then yes, I believe my beliefs would fit into the same category of rigid.....

of course everyone is an individual....but MOST OF US develop in a similar fashion.....I never denied there are exceptions and I never implied they are unhealthy......

if anything, in the US right now, children are being forced to end their childhood early by attending preschool from the age of 2 where they are most certainly encouraged to start their "education", meaning intellectual develoment. many, many programs encourage early literacy, which has not been shown to give any edge to children as they get older. play time is reduced more and more as parents scramble to get their kids in the extra classes like ballet and music (and this is often after preschool, especially as they get older)
there have been quite a few articles written about this lately in the NY Times and the Journal (I of course cannot find them right now)

yes, your child is obviously brilliant and outpacing the average child but how would any research be done on how "normal" children develop if we talked only about the exceptions?

btw, I don't blame anyone.....if you're referring to my saying that precocious behaviour is usually initiated by the adult I am only stating what I have witnessed MANY times.....
post #108 of 125
I just wanted to respond to this one bit, as you have used this roundabout Elkind quote a couple times:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
Originally Posted by Jimibell
Rahima Baldwin in “You are Your Child’s First Teacher” says:
“In Miseducation, Elkind points out that we must constantly remember that young children’s verbal skills far outpace their conceptual knowledge. Because children’s questions sound so mature and sophisticated, we are tempted to answer them at a level of abstraction far beyond their level of comprehension.”

at any age a young child's verbal skills will outpace their conceptual knowledge....4, 5, 6, 7
I agree that children learn at different paces but their age does matter!! Do you think that it does not? You continually illustrate that you do. I find that perplexing. how can you say that an 8 yr old and 4 yr old can be learning the same thing??!!
David Elkind:

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/elkind.htm

Excerpt (after addressing the fact that, in most cases, training will not affect development):

Quote:
Among the many arguments for early intellectual stimulation are those that come from research on intellectually gifted youngsters. On the surface, the research with these children seems to contradict the above conclusions about the effects of training on development. This is true because a number of studies have demonstrated that the acceleration of intellectually gifted is beneficial. Young people who have been academically accelerated are intellectually challenged, complete high school and college early, and in many cases go on to successful careers. Doesn't this contradict the developmental position that growth can't be accelerated? And, from my own standpoint, doesn't this fly in the face of all that I have written about the stressful effects of hurrying?

Not really. In fact, acceleration is really the wrong word here. If it were correct we would have to say that a child who was retained was "decelerated." When an intellectually gifted child is promoted one or several grades, what has been accelerated? Surely not the child's level of intellectual development - that, after all, is the reason for his or her promotion! What has been accelerated is the child's progress through the school curriculum. But this can be looked at a different way, not so much as acceleration as tailoring. What promotion does for intellectually gifted children is to make a better fit between the child's level of intellectual development and the curriculum.
Now, I'm not advocating early academics for children who are not interested, but Elkind certainly seems to have no problem with children learning several material several grades past their ages. I doubt he'd have problems with chess playing 4yo's. Some 4yo's really can learn the same thing as an 8yo.
post #109 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
It is a commonly known fact that chess engages the intellect.
Bold Mine
I agree it can engage intellect if the child is serious about playing and learning strategy. It can also be a fun game to goof off with. You stated "I would like to see studies showing the long-term benefits of a 3 or 4 or even 5 yr old playing chess. And when I say benefits I’m not just talking intelligence here." That was why I responded about my 'attempt' to benefit my sons' intelligence with chess. My husband taught them b/c they were interested. Period. No other motives were involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
it is not the child I am talking about, it is the ADULT who was robbed of his childhood by having his intellect (not his intelligence) engaged repeatedly at a very young age at the expense of other activities which are more age-appropriate in that they focus on his physical development or his emotional development. The brain grows a certain way. That is just a known fact. It progresses from the most basic part (the reptilian) and goes on until many many years later, around the age of 6 or 7, when the neocortex is becoming more developed.
Again, you keep going back to all or nothing. My crew do much more than sit around plugged-in or doing 'academic' activities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
If one area that is not fully developed, (such as the reptilian part), and another area is overly used at this time, (such as the neocortex) then this will be at the expense of the part that is supposed to be growing at that time. I have met too many 4 year olds who can read but cannot do monkey bars or swim or even run with a proper gait.
Interesting to know there is a 'proper' way to run....I've never heard that before. Off to learn more about that when I am done here.

Again, it's not all or nothing. Kids are quite capable of doing more than one thing. They can engage in 'academic' activities, play on the monkey bars, watch moderated tv, swim, and be engaged in fantasy play all in the course of a day. Maybe their 1/2 hour program while mom showers/gets dressed, followed by a morning at the playground where the fantasy play can happen right along side the running and monkey bars. After a nice lunch, they can go for a swim at the local pool for a couple of hours and be home in time for quiet reading before dinner. After dinner, they can relax with a game of chess.

There are so many ways to structure a day. No one way is the 'correct' way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
again, please do not confuse intelligence with intellectual. very different!
This is the quote by you that inspired my response...."Do you want your child to be highly intelligent but unable to have compassion or self-confidence or be capable of having a light-hearted conversation?"

If this isn't saying a highly intelligent child cannot be self-confident, have compassion, or be capable of having a light-hearted conversation, then maybe clarification could help me along. I really see no other way to understand the statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
I have heard many teachers speak of how they witness children who are precocious and highly intellectual in the elementary school years that also lack compassion, are difficult to keep engaged in simple activities, and are lacking in social skills. (I have also read about this in several books)
I would say it is for any child to lack compassion, engage in simple activities, or lack in social skills. Interestingly enough, I hear more remarks from people that homeschooled children lack social skills than I do about children who watch tv/play video games. BTW and FTR....I completely disagree with the statement about homeschoolers...just put it there b/c it is repeated a lot in my area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
my dd and many of her friends are not exposed to media. she also has many friends and acquantances who are....most of them in a limited fashion. I see how they want to reeanct themes they have seen on movies or shows, they often are unable to play with her simple toys and wander restlessly from one toy to the other not being able to focus on one activity for long, and they have a very hard time sitting and focusing on a story when it is told (but seem to do better with picture books).......
Each child is different. In our home, we have no issues with the above. I really haven't noticed a lack of ability to come up with their own ideas from many of their friends either.

I have a friend who homeschools her kids, they have never been to public school. They don't own a tv and never have. They do know about themes from movies/shows via their friends at church and such. They don't have any direct exposure, but they still here the themes and see the themes while in stores. It is entirely possible to have a tv-free child be aware of these things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
Not necessarily discouraging them. You can follow through on an interest without focusing on the intellect. If your child is interested in learning about how our food becomes poop let's say, tell a story about the digestive system using images that they can relate to such as, "the food enters the door of your mouth and swims all the way down to the belly, when it get's there, oh boy, it goes through a lot of swishing and wiggling...etc"
the numbers can be done in the same sort of way......sing songs, bake, do laundry, all of these activities can involve numbers in a nonobtrusive way and in a way that children can really relate to without overly engaging the intellect.....(of course as the child gets older the stories can become more detailed)
What makes you think kids who are exposed to media don't learn things in just this way?

My crew have workbooks they have requested to 'do school,' but the bulk of their learning is in everyday life just as you described. My middle son developed his love of numbers initially by going through the grocery store. They had these huge signs with large, colorful numbers on them that he always asked about. Everyday life taught him his love of numbers.

I am well aware there are parents who drill their kids from early on in an academic type setting. What you seem to not realize is the middle area....the 'gray area so to speak. There are so many ways on the contiuum that one doesn't cancel the other out. It can be an amazing combination of many forms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
the age is not arbitrary....it is a general guideline......
You said it yourself.....a general guideline. Not the end all and be all eliminating all other ages from the equation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
do you think it is appropriate for a 4 yr old to drink wine? or coffee?
Not sure what this has to do with the conversation, but I'll answer. For my family.....no wine at 4, but I would wage a huge guess that other cultures would allow it for certain situations. Not sure about all religious ceremonies, but communion comes to mind first. I am not sure if all churches use grape juice in place of wine.

The coffee answer....a couple of my kids tried a bit of coffee at four. They liked it for about a month and then moved on to something else. Their dad would give it to them in a cup with about 3 tablespoons in it. My other two kids have never had an interest in coffee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
I do feel that I have witnessed it more times than I can count. I have yet to find one class out there in mainstream (such as a simple nature walk even) that doesn't try to overly engage the intellect, on the contrary, the children are continually bombarded with talking, asking questions, giving directions....why can't we just have a nature walk where we can just "be" and maybe the teacher just points out her observations?? every single activity I've encountered out there, from Music Together to the simple activities at the local museum, have some sort of educational agenda that needs to be talked abouta and analyzed, the intellectual gain is most definately touted whereas the sensory experience of it is completely ignored.....and this is odd because young children like 3 and 4 yr olds still learn primarily through their senses.....
I have certainly experienced the same on occassion, but I tend to stay clear of those activities. We don't usually go on nature walks with guides, but have in the past. They talked about the different types of animals that live in the area and the trees/vegetation. It was not anything they wouldn't have learned by reading a book about the same.

We have a Science Center about an hour away that is full of hands on activities for the kids to engage in. It has several different stations that engage everything from the sense to the intellect. For our family, it's all about balance. We have conversations about things as the kids ask and we answer until we don't know the facts or until they are satisfied with what was presented to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
that's great that your children are well-rounded. the only thing I say limit exposure to are things that are harmful, such as over-stimulation and media. of course almost every child is exposed to harmful things that the parents do not want, stuff happens, but my point is to create an enviroment that does not normally include these things....
Just curious. You seem very concerned about the exposure to things that have the potential to be harmful. You encounter these things everywhere in life. You have the potential to be harmed by doing just about any activity from eating (you could choke) to driving a car (accidents) to walking down the trail in the woods (stung by a bee). The key is to put safety rules/mechanisms in place and then go enjoy life. You can't create an environment that eliminates/lessons the exposure to harmful things b/c they can happen anywhere, anytime, and with almost any item.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
again, I do not feel the ages are arbitrary. there is a huge difference between a nine year old and a 4 yr old!!
I agree. That is why you choose to explain/engage in activities appropriate for your child whether it is based on age or knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
so how do you dress your baby before she can talk?? even when they're 5, that is putting a lot of undue pressure on a child to have to choose what she'll wear for the day outside......
I dress an infant according to their cues. If they are sweating or overly-fussy, then it is possible they are too warm/cold. It isn't really that difficult.

My oldest son (11.5 yrs) is alway hot while sleeping and sleeps in underwear only and a light blanket, yet he still sweats. My daughter (10 yrs) is always, always cold and wear a t-shirt/underwear or pj set and sleeps under two blankets. My middle son (9 yrs) sleeps in his underwear under a comforter and is comfortable. My youngest (5.5 yrs) sleeps in footed pj's for the most part b/c that is how he is comfortable. Each child is different. I can't possibly know their internal temp or even assume to know what they should sleep in. Why would I even try?

The pressure thing isn't there. They feel no pressure from anyone. They are choosing that the same way the choose a snack. No pressure. Their choice. They need to learn to listen to their body cues. How can they learn their own body cues when I am dictating what they 'should' be feeling according to my own body cues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
I'm pretty sure it was you that said you would explain a TV show to a 12 yr old as you would a 3 yr old. Of course I did not assume you meant with the same words. But thinking that you can explain away a strong mental image such as one encountered in a TV show or game with a 3 yr old is not very realistic. That image will not disappear. Of course I do think that if you are showing TV to a young child that you should be sitting with her and discussing it with her as much as you can. But their brains and bodies will register their responses way before you can get in any explanation.
I guess I am not sure what type of strong mental image you are referring to. Perhaps a clarification of what you mean would be beneficial.

My 11.5 yr old doesn't watch many things I would consider strong mental images, but that doesn't mean you would agree with me. It is entirely possible to explain things to three year olds when you give the credit of being able to understand you. My crew at three were very capable of understanding things that you believe isn't possible, so there really isn't much for me say.

We preview shows in our home before we let the kids see them. We know what needs explained before the show is even on and can clarify where we feel it is needed before they even see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
Forcing adult thought is exactly what you are doing. We are all doing, unless we are very conscious of our words all the time.....this is something I am always working on for myself....to try to see things as a child does...
Force is used when someone is doing something they do not want to do. I assure you, my crew are not forced to do anything. They have way too many of my genes for that to occur even if I wanted to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
read the rest of the quote:
Surely we can trick the growing system into walking before crawling, but that young system will reel about drunkenly and crash headlong-to the amazement and heartbreak of those parents so delighted that they had produced a child wonder”

as he says, of course it's POSSIBLE for a child to learn things too early, does it benefit him? that's the question!
This is where we disagree. I feel that if my children are asking questions about doing something, then odds are they are ready. If they don't engage in the activity after explanation, then they weren't ready/interested. I think holding them back according to my standards or the standards of 'experts' who have never met my child is doing them a huge disservice and is highly disrespectful to their individuality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
What he is saying is that TV shouldn't be used as an educational tool as it changes HOW children learn.....don't you think this is important?
I feel they learn all kinds of things from television and watching the images on several subjects much better than I could teach them from a book. Animal Planet is very much like going to a zoo everyday. They learn all about the animals by watching them in the animal's natural environment. I can't afford to take them to other countries to see these same things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
if a child is used to fast-paced images and entertainment being an INTEGRAL and CRUCIAL feature of learning how can this serve him? whatever happened to a child sitting down reading a book (of course this is elementary age I am referring to) and then discussing it? if the TV mode of education is becoming the norm we will lose this!
Your caps are the key. It doesn't have to be the integral/crucial part of learning. It is done in moderation. My children read books every night at bedtime. My oldest does so for about 2-3 hours depending on how tired he is. My daughter reads for about 1/2 hour unless she found a really good book, then that extends to 1 hour or more. My middle son reads for about 45 minutes each night. My little one get read to from several books by myself, my husband, or one of his siblings. He also loves to read by himself now.

We talk all the time about the books my elementary kids read. I try to read as many of the same books so we can actually talk about it.

Again, it's not all or nothing. Moderation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
at any age a young child's verbal skills will outpace their conceptual knowledge....4, 5, 6, 7
I agree that children learn at different paces but their age does matter!! Do you think that it does not? You continually illustrate that you do. I find that perplexing. how can you say that an 8 yr old and 4 yr old can be learning the same thing??!!
I totally disagree. If that was the case, then my five year would be unable to add or even read (according to your 6/7 age). I am illustrating that your 6/7 age is irrelevant as shown by just my four children. I truly don't understand why you are insisting that age is a factor. It only holds them back if you decided they can only learn certain things at certain ages. It is entirely possible for an eight year old and four year old to learn the same thing. It is entirely possible to have a four year old who is learning to read while another may not indicate readiness until eight. I am baffled as to why you feel this is never a possibility. It is when you follow a child's cues of readiness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
how do these activities serve them? this should be answered with a thought to their overall growth and what you feel is important for them.
These activities serve them b/c they are of interest to them. How am I looking out for their overall growth if I am constantly telling them their internal cues are incorrect? Why would I choose to teach them to not listen to their own cues? Why would I want them to only follow the cues according to someone who isn't even aware of their internal cues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
they use the term baby, they are referring to toddlers. many people, including me, use the term baby to refer to todllers and not just infants.
I really can't comment on this one as my crew didn't really watch tv as babies or toddlers, though I suppose that may differ according to what someone feels is a toddler as opposed to a pre-school age child.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
every thing we encounter in our lives affects how we think. and if you are surrounded by something non-stop, especially as your brain and body and emotions are developing, how can you possibly think that it doesn't affect you?
Again with the non-stop factor.....I am fairly certain everyone here is talking about moderation, not non-stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
point taken, now show me an article that hasn't been written with a bias.
Even highly-respected and internationally recognized publications and newspapers are written with certain political and philosophical biases.
They don't exist. I would not be able to show you an article that doesn't have bias; however, articles that are most definately one side of the issue are not good for discussions such as these IMO. I am sure there are articles around that at least fall in the middle of the issue and show both sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
again, I never said to turn them away....I think their interests can be addressed in a fun, imaginative way that does not involve any TV/games/computers and without overally engaging the intellect.
I agree they can learn in a fun, imaginative way as well as utilize the electronic media as a supplement to learning. My children have got to see places that they may never be able to visit through the television. They can see these animals in books, but they can't see their movements and reactions to their environments through the book. They can experience being part of the environment through documentaries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
Every stage of life is what it is. Have you ever heard the expression you can't get back your childhood? I think that the early years are such a precious and beautiful time and I want to maintain my children's sense of wonder at the world without imposing some intellectual agenda on them. I observe her and her friends and I see them responding wonderfully to many activities that involve no media and do not bring awareness to their intellect.
Bold mine.

This seems to be what you keep returning to. You seem to feel that if a child learns earlier than your arbitrary age, then they are being forced/imposed upon. I am sure that happens with some children. You fail to see the middle of the contiuum. You fail to see the balance that many families have to allow their child to lead and learn at their own pace.

Again, you seem to insinuate that a child exposed to media is unable to respond to activities that involve no media. My children can spend hours building with lincoln logs or their wooden blocks. My middle son loves dominoes, so we invested in a huge wooden set for him. He has amazing patience while setting up these elaborate domino creations. The fact that they are exposed to media does nothing to discourage their creative sides or their abilities to imagine their own scenarios. This goes back to the idea of balance and moderation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
I take her interest in things at face value. She is still in the stage where she learns by doing and feeling (and using all of her physical senses). If she wants to learn about animals I take her to a farm. If she wants to read I read a book to her and then let her look at it. If she wants to write I hand her a pencil and paper.
If she asks me why it rains, I tell her, "so the earth and the flowers and grass can quench their thirst". She has never shown any dissatisfaction with such an answer.
You and I seem to do the same things with our children. What about when your child asks about seeing animals in action that you have no access to? My daughter loves all animals and wants to be a vet when she grows up. We can go to the zoo and to farms, but there are animals that aren't at the zoo or farm. This is where documentaries or programs about these animals come into the equation. She went through a stage where she loved lemurs. They aren't at our zoo, so we found a video that was exclusively lemurs. It gave her the ability to view them in action. It wasn't possible for a book to give the up-close view of them in their habitat.

If your child isn't questioning your answers, then they are satisfied. When your child asks for more, then I would guess you elaborate more. The same as most parents would I imagine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
If your child goes on to want more, I suggest telling a story, not turning on the TV or going out and buying a big "educational" book on it.
I can tell my children all the stories under the sun. When they ask for specific knowledge about how an animals is in their environment and they want to see the animal in that habitat, why wouldn't I utilize the source that can provide that for them.

My children ask about all sorts of things that a story won't give them the answer for enough to satisfy their knowledge. I am really baffled as to why you feel it is wrong to answer a child with the direct knowledge rather than in story form. They would be learning the same information, just not through a song.

My children ask for the knowledge, I provide it. I refuse to tie my children to an arbitrary age of when they should be interested in a topic.
post #110 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by ashtree View Post
Thank you so much!!! I placed Endangered Minds on hold at the library and am REALLY looking forward to reading it! Whatver "this" was linked to isn't working for me.

Amy in NH-I'm still checking out all the links. I really appreciate you spending so much time gathering them all! I'm eager for my DH to return from his trip so we can read them together. Thanks again!
Sorry -- just a picture of a hedge clipper.
post #111 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
I can't say exactly how I would react as I do not have this experience and I have never met anyone with this type of experience. You have to see that even assuming there are individual cases such as your dc that it is not the norm. I have throughout talked about the normal growth and development of a child's brain. I have never once said that there are no exceptions.

It seems that I just happened to attract the attention of the all of the parents with highly intellectually gifted children here in this thread.

I am not an expert but I have been around A LOT of children and I see the affects of TV on them. I also see MANY MANY parents who are hurrying their child along to learn the ABC (at 1 or 2) and then read at 3. Just about every day I bear witness to this. This is the type of behaviour that I find unhealthy.
Bold mine.
Just wanted to clarify. My children are anything, but 'highly intellectually gifted.' I find it interesting that if a child shows interest in 'academic' activities you feel they are gifted. My children are on cue with their peers on most things academically with the exception of reading and math (for a couple of them). The reason they are higher on these subjects is b/c they absolutely love them. My children (esp the oldest three) could read for hours if you let them. My two youngest boys could talk math forever it seems b/c they love math. The reason they are excelling in these areas is b/c they were allowed to question and learn when they were interested. I didn't shut them down or re-direct them until the right age came along. I followed their lead and helped to cultivate their love of these topics.

Funny note. My five year can read Dick and Jane, but can't even say the alphabet from start to finish. Why? He doesn't like to recite things he has no interest in. He wanted to learn to read and we went with it. He picked up fairly quickly and he loves it. He will learn his alphabet song in due time I am sure, but we aren't in any hurry to push it on him.
post #112 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
points taken.

do you not think that there is a "normal" physiological process that occurs in growth?

When you go to the doctor and get a well-baby (if you do that, I know some don't) they have those little cards that ask questions like, "does your baby crawl yet?" "does your baby recognize his name", etc....from your post I am supposing that you find these also rigid?

if so, then yes, I believe my beliefs would fit into the same category of rigid.....

of course everyone is an individual....but MOST OF US develop in a similar fashion.....I never denied there are exceptions and I never implied they are unhealthy......

if anything, in the US right now, children are being forced to end their childhood early by attending preschool from the age of 2 where they are most certainly encouraged to start their "education", meaning intellectual develoment. many, many programs encourage early literacy, which has not been shown to give any edge to children as they get older. play time is reduced more and more as parents scramble to get their kids in the extra classes like ballet and music (and this is often after preschool, especially as they get older)
there have been quite a few articles written about this lately in the NY Times and the Journal (I of course cannot find them right now)

yes, your child is obviously brilliant and outpacing the average child but how would any research be done on how "normal" children develop if we talked only about the exceptions?

btw, I don't blame anyone.....if you're referring to my saying that precocious behaviour is usually initiated by the adult I am only stating what I have witnessed MANY times.....
I think that children all develop at their own pace. I don't think any charts can tell me when my child should be doing anything (yes I do well checks). The questions asked at the doctor's are arbitrary ages that are set by the medical community as to what the average child may/may not do. It isn't set in stone and I know my kids have all done things when they are ready.

Some 'milestones' from my children (oldest to youngest)
Crawling (8 mths, 13 mths, 7 mths, 8 mths)
Walking (13 mths, 15 mths, 18 mths, 14 mths)
Talking - actual sentences, not just random words (18 mths, 17 mths, 23 mths, 34 mths)

Four children in the same environment with the same parents.....they all learned at their own pace. Why would I worry about a set age for these things? My youngest talked 'late,' but talked in sentences right off the bat when he started talking. He was taking it all in and talked when he was ready.
post #113 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
of course everyone is an individual....but MOST OF US develop in a similar fashion.....I never denied there are exceptions and I never implied they are unhealthy......
You actually did imply it is unhealty for the exceptions. You seem to indicate that highly intelligent children are not the norm, which makes them the exceptions and you stated...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
Do you want your child to be highly intelligent but unable to have compassion or self-confidence or be capable of having a light-hearted conversation?
This implies that the children who are highly intelligent are unhealthy b/c they are unable to have compassion/self-confidence/engage in light-hearted conversation. I suppose that could be true of a highly intelligent child as well as any other child around regardless of their intelligence level.
post #114 of 125
I would like to chalk this up to irreconciable differences because although I do have resposes to all the comments I just don't have the time or inclination to go on with this futile conversation.

Our fundamental beliefs are different enough that I feel that no matter what I say, unless of course I concede to your points of view, there is not point in continuing on.
post #115 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
I would like to chalk this up to irreconciable differences because although I do have resposes to all the comments I just don't have the time or inclination to go on with this futile conversation.

Our fundamental beliefs are different enough that I feel that no matter what I say, unless of course I concede to your points of view, there is not point in continuing on.
I agree our fundamental beliefs are different, but I disagree that the discussion is an attempt to get you to concede to my points of view. A discussion requires two sides and that is what was happening.

I truly hope you allow yourself to open your eyes to things that were stated in this thread. Noone is asking you to change your views or follow what other families do, but you should be more open to different ways of doing things. We all will do what we feel is best for our children. I am sorry you don't feel able to continue with this discussion as it has been very enlightening. I would have loved to give the other side of equation, so others could get both views.
post #116 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
I agree our fundamental beliefs are different, but I disagree that the discussion is an attempt to get you to concede to my points of view. A discussion requires two sides and that is what was happening.

I truly hope you allow yourself to open your eyes to things that were stated in this thread. Noone is asking you to change your views or follow what other families do, but you should be more open to different ways of doing things. We all will do what we feel is best for our children. I am sorry you don't feel able to continue with this discussion as it has been very enlightening. I would have loved to give the other side of equation, so others could get both views.
you know what, it has been interesting for me too. however, I do not have time to sit here and respond to each part of every person's post. It is, frankly, taking too much of my time!

I do feel that I am open to different views and ways of doing things. In a nutshell, I feel that parents are the ones responsible for making the decisions for their children. Of course we each look at our children as individuals but we operate from a framework that we believe in. For me to say that I think my way is right and so is yours would be a lie and I'm just not willing to say that. I do think that at approximately a given age there is a typical type of behaviour, learning patterns, etc, again I recognize that there are exceptions but they just aren't the norm. If you think that implies I think it's unhealthy, you are misinterpreting what I'm saying. It is the parents reaction to the behaviour that I am questioning.

For those of you who have their children in school it must be very difficult for you. The entire system is based on the assumption of age-appropriate learning and behaviour. (although you probably are homeschooling to avoid these constraints)
post #117 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
points taken.

do you not think that there is a "normal" physiological process that occurs in growth?
There is a HUGE range of normal and what is normal for you may not be normal for me. We don't all start in the same place and we don't all finish in the same place nor should we.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
When you go to the doctor and get a well-baby (if you do that, I know some don't) they have those little cards that ask questions like, "does your baby crawl yet?" "does your baby recognize his name", etc....from your post I am supposing that you find these also rigid?
I think there is pretty extensive evidence that this approach doesn't work particularly well. If you are interested in reading more I'd suggest the current best seller "How Doctors Think?" or the old classic "How to Raise a Healthy Child in Spite of your Doctor". There is evidence that asking so many questions about normal, healthy children actually lulls doctors into complacency so when they see problems they are less likely to spot them. Also, trying to fit children into these questions may be far less revealing than more open ended questions.

Further, it is important to note the reason for asking these questions is to establish a MINIMUM. In other words, we ask if two year olds can talk because if they don't it may clue us in to a hearing problem. Doctors generally aren't particularly interested in the places where children exceed the lowest level. That is very different from what you are saying. You are making pathological children who develop intellectually in ways that are advanced.

Do you acknowledge there is a HUGE range of what is normal? I hear you expressing concerns about children who develop intellectually in ways you consider atypical for the age. I'm wondering though where the concern is for other kinds of development. We know a very physically gifted kid who was drawn to anything with wheels - bikes, skateboards, etc. from the time he was two. Are we to assume this child will end up with social or emotional problems due to this early development or do you allow children to be especially physical, imaginative etc. just not intellectual?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
of course everyone is an individual....but MOST OF US develop in a similar fashion.....I never denied there are exceptions and I never implied they are unhealthy......
Let's see you said that the intellectual kids end up with social problems, can't interact normally, etc. Your posts were quite clear it is unhealthy. As I recall you even used that word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post

yes, your child is obviously brilliant and outpacing the average child but how would any research be done on how "normal" children develop if we talked only about the exceptions?
I can't really relate to the terms you are using. I don't really see a lot of average children. I see individuals who develop in their own ways. Some are more physical, some more intellectual, some more emotional, some equal in all areas. What is important to me isn't that we classify children as normal or average or brilliant, but rather that we allow individuals to develop according to their own time tables in ways that work for them. As a homeschooler I know kids who first read at 2 and kids who first read at 9, and I don't consider the kids abnormal or exceptional. Rather, they are kids who were allowed to develop at their own pace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
btw, I don't blame anyone.....if you're referring to my saying that precocious behaviour is usually initiated by the adult I am only stating what I have witnessed MANY times.....
Sure, that's out there. I've also witnessed parents who stifle kids because their development doesn't fit into what they consider "normal". These parents do things like discourage a child from being interested in chess or reading because it doesn't fit into the parent's view that child's life should be about fairies. This rigidity is equally bad and damaging to the child.
post #118 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
For me to say that I think my way is right and so is yours would be a lie and I'm just not willing to say that.
I don't have a problem with you thinking video games and tv are bad for your children. I don't have a problem with people finding other resources for satisfying their children's interests. It is simply the judgement you hold with your views that is bothersome. Parents run into so much judgement when raising their kids. I carefully think out everything I do and have good reasons for my choices. I accept other people have good reasons for their choices, as well. I base my choices on the child I have and the environment I'm in. No one has told you you are putting your children at a disadvantage by your approach and it would be nice if you could manage to have an open mind that we might not be screwing up our children (or at least not insult us by outright saying so ).
post #119 of 125
: nicely put 4evermom.
post #120 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
my dd and many of her friends are not exposed to media. she also has many friends and acquantances who are....most of them in a limited fashion. I see how they want to reeanct themes they have seen on movies or shows, they often are unable to play with her simple toys and wander restlessly from one toy to the other not being able to focus on one activity for long, and they have a very hard time sitting and focusing on a story when it is told (but seem to do better with picture books).......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell
Books have words in them, they inspire imagination. The work of the imagination is to create images or scenarios drawing upon a storehouse of information and experiences, not to REENACT scenes from images in a dire attempt to integrate them into the mind and to understand them in a meaningful way, as is necessary when exposed to TV/computers/video games.
Bold Mine.

These things have been on my mind. I agree that books foster imagination. I agree they are crucial parts of a child's life. I have to wonder though, how is a child truly using their own imagination when they are creating a world described in a book. It is the same thing as far as I can tell. You have descriptions of the characters and the setting. They give the backdrop and then tell the story from there. The only difference is the way it is presented. I know my own children have re-created scenes from books they have read when they find interest in them.
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