Did I make Dd social ills worse? - update

[jlpumkin]

Long story short (I hope): Dd started making friends w/ a girl in presch. I invited them for playdates. Mom is super judgemental and gossiped about everyone so I stopped inviting back. Plus she b**** the whole time about her troubles - got plenty of my own yk?

So I did 2 bads today in her eyes that I'm afraid will end up making dd even more of a target...
1. 'A' took a toy from Dd and yelled at her for playing - right in her face. Dd started to cry. 'A' said fine go ahead and play - don't cry... then saw me and tried to make nice. So I leaned down and said you've already been mean, sometimes sorry just doesn't always work. So 'A' ran off crying to her dad.
2. At the same time sort of - not in time to see exchange, but too soon to have heard 'A's tale of the mean lady (me) - 'A's mom approaches me and starts this rant about more of how busy she is and her hard life etc etc and I touch her on the hand and say "Sorry, I'm carrying a lot of my own right now, I don't have the energy for anyone else's" She looked at me like I slapped her.

So yeah - I'm sure she's not saving me a seat at the next PTA meeting. But I'm trying to gauge just how out of line I am. I know you mommas are honest but be gentle eh? My real world stressors haven't lifted quite yet either.

I guess I didn't explain Dd super introverted.. doesn't make friends easily and often seems like a target, but doesn't yet (almost 5) seem to care too much. In other words: still loves school dispite the other kids.

Sorry if this is in the wrong place - not really school or childhood.. wasn't sure where. Thanks.

[Demeter9]

You might need to be very careful in checking the protective mom at the door of your mind before talking to children. I can't judge your tone, it may be that you were a little harsh with the child. There is probably a better way of dealing with that, even if the child's manner is grating.

As to the other mother. Way to go. I think you dealt with that just fine. Some people really don't understand the difference between friendly and friends. You may have shocked her - but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Having someone actually throw down a boundary with someone can be a good learning experience for them sometimes.

I know that I have had occassion to be shocked by someone being honest, trying to be nice but blunt. I didn't ENJOY it, but I don't hold it against them.

[ThreeBeans]

Based on what you said, and only based on what you've said, you may need to rethink about how you relate to people.

[MomInCalifornia]

Originally Posted by ThreeBeans

Based on what you said, and only based on what you've said, you may need to rethink about how you relate to people.

I agree. There is a middle ground between doormat and bitch. I do think you were out of line.

[lilyka]

well based on the above post I think both instances were kinda mean.

situation 1: we are talking about 5 years olds or less right? girl made a mistake. tried to make right. saw you coming and rally checked her behavior. and you tell her "screw you, not good enough" and make her run off crying. She tried to correct herself! This is what preschool is about. figuring out all of this. not every child is perfect. Its perfectly age appropriate at this stage to make mistakes. The fact that she responded to your ds tears in a positive, penitent way should have been applauded. not shot down. man i am thrilled when my dds act snotty and figure out on their own that she needs to adjust her attitude and make amends.

situation 2: Maybe she is a burden but she was reaching out. Some people are looking for a shoulder t lea on. and you totally shut her down. She gets it now. you aren't interested in being there for her. I think you could have been kinder some how. Maybe just changed the topic. Shown a little compassion maybe. I would have been crushed if someone said something like that to me.

[talk de jour]

Originally Posted by AbigailsMomSarah

I agree. There is a middle ground between doormat and bitch. I do think you were out of line.

Yeah, no kidding.

[duckling]

I feel like I could go two ways on this--in both instances tone totally makes or breaks the line between "acceptable" and "whoa, there!". Since I didn't hear these conversations, I don't know where the tone was.

With regards to the first scenario, a pp mentioned that the girl was making mistakes and trying to correct them. I could see the behavior you described in two ways--either A) she was being mean-spirited and knew it was inappropriate, but checked her behavior because she saw you and feared being perceived as "bad" or B) realized that she was being mean and reevaluated her behavior for reasons other than your approach. In case A, I think your response was ok--too many times it seems like kids are told that "sorry" makes everything better but no real attention is paid to preventing situations that necessitate a later apology. By pointing out that "sorry" is not a magic wand, she may learn that actions have consequences that can't be immediately undone with one word. (I do realize that this is overgeneralized. I don't mean to offend anyone.) However, if it was case B, I would feel reluctant to respond in the same way you did, as it seems that "A" realized the natural consequence of being rude to a friend--the friend becomes upset--and tried to rectify the situation on her own.

In conclusion, I have no conclusion, only contemplation since I wasn't privy to the entirety of the interactions. Just things to think about.

Also, I feel some of the previous posters seemed to be pretty quick to make snap judgments in a rather unkind way. I think that if you're going to chastise someone for being abrasive, it would likely be better to point that out in a non-abrasive way. :

[Tigerchild]

I think you were way, way out of line with 1.

2...eh, I wouldn't have handled it that way on purpose, but that's not as big of a deal since you're not particularly interested in making friends with her and are happy with that and seem aware that she may not want to hang around you in the future.

When your kid finally does something not so nice to another kid (and it will happen), would you prefer her to perhaps get a look of disapproval, but then a nod of respect and a 'Thank you for trying to make things better' or space for the two of them to work it out? Or would you like an adult to lean in and twist the knife a little and tell her 'Once you make a mistake, nothing you do afterwards is good enough?'

Though it's not like when I'm under stress I don't say things that probably shouldn't have been said either.

If you're really worried about your daughter not getting enough time with other kids, though, you need to have more of a editor about what you say to other children. If that mama had had her mama-bear instinct trigger that could have escalated quite badly. and the woman's already a gossip.

So, I guess it comes out to a draw. The gossipy lady should be pleased she has fodder for the next few days, and the shock probably took away anything her DD might have said about you, since she'll be thinking more about what you said to HER, probably.

Maybe you can just shelf the playdate idea (unless DD specifically asks) so that you're not adding to your stress and setting yourself up? Or pick a kid YOU like to have a playdate with. Esp. if your DD doesn't seek out and need that much social interaction, maybe give both of you a break and just do fun things together, and ask once in awhile if she wants to invite a favorite friend.

[jlpumkin]

Thanks all for honest responses. With #1 yeah I had had it w/ little girl. I drove to the field trip we had just returned from and she had picked on dd the whole day... that and taking her out into the street and refusing to hold hand etc. Having said that, I was gentle in my tone not snotty.. But I probably didn't really have to say anything to her at all. Dd made it clear sorry wasn't working for her either. But the tears, I think - is a little girl who is a bully behind closed doors and super sensitive when caught. Another reason we ended playdates.

#2 - I have listened to her problems like having to work the book fair, and poor money management skills to no end. I am not a doormat or bitch either... Wow... this event particularly was a bit out of my normal character, which I think is why it bugged me enough to even post. However, we all have stress... mine involves things like 911 calls for childhood emergencies, dh out of town amongst othters... not really in the mood to hear her boo-hoo over a book fair. yk?

[jlpumkin]

Stone me now.. I really do think it's fine for kids to learn that saying the word sorry doesn't fix it. Let's be real.. someone is nit picking the crap out of you... not just today but other days too... do you care if they say sorry because they got caught? I do teach dd to say sorry, but I try to also help her learn that it's important to fix it and make right.. because the word is meaningly without action.

Neither my daughter or I are angels... we deal in reality here. I did forget to note that I did call the mother to *gasp* apologize! I guess to follow my previous sentence... I'm off to find an action... hmm.

[marybethorama]

I don't know-your response to the little girl may have come off as a bit harsh but I don't see it as out of line

Granted he was younger but when he was pre-school aged my oldest ds used to cry if any adult corrected him even in the mildest way. So maybe the little girl is sensitive like that.

I think also you may have been a little blunt with the other mother but you were not wrong to set boundaries.

[GranoLLLy-girl]

In the case of the mother (I won't comment on the child issue, as I think it has been thoroughly touched on)---I wonder a couple of things:
has the relationship progressed to a point where she (the mother) thinks that this kind of exchange (her complaining, you listening) is OK?
And if so, you (the OP) have to admit some personal responsibility for allowing the relationship to get to that point (letting her complain so often and being an ear for that sort of thing, she has learned to expect that)--
which leads me to what you wrote about her looking like she had been slapped--because in a way, your quick turn around behavior was kind of like being slapped (even though a part of me says "yeah--about time"; when I think of others that I have encountered that are just like that--but still, I'm not sure I would have done that...).
If you can gently nudge a person like her in a more healthy direction, that's the better option (and of course, I realize hindsight is 20/20). Maybe each time she complains, change the subject or go "check on your dd's play" or something, then she can get the hint. Or say something like, "wow, I am so sorry that you are going through so much and I can relate to stress and anxiety because here's what happened to me just the other day..."
If that doesn't work, as you mentioned, cancel playdates or stop making them.
Or you could try a gentle discussion with her and tell her that it would be nice if your conversations could be more uplifting or that you need time to express yourself as well (or something along those lines, depending on what you want out of the relationship--if anything at all).
The only problem I see with what you will reap from this whole exchange is: the hasty reaction and then the apology--which while you think may be justified--will only allow this mom to now add you to her circle of stories/gossip to spread. If she is really as you describe her, she won't take the situation as a learning experience but instead will feel justified in talking about *you* behind your back because, after all, as she will see it, you were a real *itch to her and then you did call and apologize (which really justifies her feelings).
And isn't it kind of ironic that you said to the child that sometimes apologies are just not good enough--even more ironic, that you said it only moments before this exchange? Ain't that some karma for ya?
I feel your pain though, I have friends that will call and never even ask how I am and just go on and on about their lives. I slip away from those people as quickly as I can because nothing that I say will change how they've been operating for the last 30-40 years (depending on their age), or teach them anything; usually I try many other approaches before assigning them the label of "energy vampire" and getting away as quickly as possible with my blood intact.
Hope this helps at all. I sometimes find dealing with other parents more stressful than anything I've ever had to deal with before kids came along!

[theatermom]

I guess for me, in these cases, the tone was less important than the actual words.

1. I object to the "you've already been mean". "Sorry sometimes doesn't work, let's give her some space" would have been better and even then, the offending child may have cried simply because she was being corrected by someone outside of her nucleus (my ds1 would have). No matter how awful she may have been all day, she's still a child (correcting her was fine, just need to take care in how it's done).

2. Again, your wording was off. No amount of gentleness in tone can compensate for words essentially saying "I have no desire to hear about your petty problems".

That said, I think that you're ultra-stressed, and when I'm ultra-stressed, my polite, be-nice filter shuts down. I agree w/whoever suggested hanging out just with your dd for awhile and recuperating. Sometimes I get enough of socializing with people I don't know well, and putting up with their quirks and sometimes downright rude behaviour. And, your dd will benefit more from quiet, happy time with you than she will from socializing with a child who is mean to her and who gets on your nerves, not to mention how her mother's personality affects you). Hugs!

[maliceinwonderland]

I'll risk a stoning and say I think you were totally fine, on both accounts. : Maybe because I've dealt with a mother/daughter combo like this before..do they always come in a package like that?

[ThreeBeans]

If you were that mom, and you were opening your heart to someone you *thought* you could trust, how would that have made you feel? Really?

I would have been devastated. I probably would have gone home and cried for an hour.

[jlpumkin]

Update!

Turns out I touched a much bigger nerve here at MDC than in real life.

Said momma & 'A' visited our home this morning after drop off to connect a bit. I mentioned the slapped look and she said that it was just due to me not being myself and concern. I absolutely take ownership of the relationship in that it's easy to give an ear when you are cruising through life... not so easy when you are not. Said momma declared we all have crappy days - yesterday was yours, lets move on.

As far as with little 'A' - I think pp really hit the nail on the head. I really felt (feel) horrible in the use of a label with a child something I would never want to do!

And absolutely I find that the moment a statement passes my lips, I am blessed enough to be tested on it... this time I failed - and I believe chastized well by some mommas... but as always I will be tested again. I can only hope to be better

Thanks for your honesty mommas!

[GranoLLLy-girl]

So glad it all worked out!
You've got guts--I only wish sometimes I could say what I really feel around other mothers...not that I am a doormat, but there are some moms that just make me nuts--and I try!

[PrennaMama]

Originally Posted by Demeter9

You might need to be very careful in checking the protective mom at the door of your mind before talking to children. I can't judge your tone, it may be that you were a little harsh with the child. There is probably a better way of dealing with that, even if the child's manner is grating.

As to the other mother. Way to go. I think you dealt with that just fine. Some people really don't understand the difference between friendly and friends. You may have shocked her - but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Having someone actually throw down a boundary with someone can be a good learning experience for them sometimes.

I know that I have had occassion to be shocked by someone being honest, trying to be nice but blunt. I didn't ENJOY it, but I don't hold it against them.

I've been in that situation... the one with the slapped look on her face... I have had some frineds have to draw a boundary- it didn't mean they didn't care about me or my life, it just meant they weren't in the right space to be supportive at the time, to me. I don't hold that kinda thing against people, and it sounds like 'A's mom doesn't either (I have observed that a great many open-hearted-gushers like myself are quite understanding and forgiving; we get used to being told "Whoa, lady... simmer down!"). BUT, due to the same opennesss that causes us to put ourselves out there (somewhat prematurely on occassion) we are also usually really supportive, understanding, and possibly helpful... what do you think would happen if you were to tell her a little about what you're going thru? Maybe with dh outta town and your stress mounting, she could offer some helpful suggestions, or take your dd for a play-time and give you a break? Once she sees that you're in need of support, it might allow her to reciprocate some of what she has asked from you in making you her confidante. Who knows...?

Originally Posted by duckling

Also, I feel some of the previous posters seemed to be pretty quick to make snap judgments in a rather unkind way. I think that if you're going to chastise someone for being abrasive, it would likely be better to point that out in a non-abrasive way. :

I agree... OP did ask for gentle-handling, and it seems a little off to tell someone, harshly, "You're too harsh!" But whatev... the internet does a horrible job in relating tone of voice, right?

[jlpumkin]

PrennaMama & Granollly thanks for your thoughtful responses. I did share with her some later... just totally did not want to enter into my immediate crisis in the school's crowded foyer yk? At the time she did ask and I just said I didn't want to enter into it.

I also just want to say that I think everything ended up well because I'm not this abrasive loud mouth tearing into everyone all the time... And for the record I'm not so sure that a light touch on the hand with a statement of being overwhelmed is so abrasive upon further review.. though combined with the children's incident I felt horrible enough to post and gauge whether I was going to be able to recover from this and be social with this family in the future. It's a small private school... we will be interacting with this family heavily over the next 8 years.. or should assume so at least.