Take Back Our Kids

[AllieFaye]

http://www.strike-the-root.com/71/le...sczynski1.html

[Tigerchild]

Interesting. I didn't know there was a Libertarian children's agenda.

Though I guess everyone else has one too, so why not.

I like some of the books on the list, but I'm hoping my kids will not be capitalist-centric Libertarians (and while I like regulated capitalism as an economic policy, applying that to political issues squicks me, so I actually dislike Libertarianism), so the author's book won't be on my list. I figure they'll probably go through their Ayn Rand stage in college on their own.

[minkajane]

The thing that stuck out to me was the author's insistance that both eye ointment and vaccinations were absolutely 100% mandated by law, which most MDCers know is NOT true. It is so incredibly sad that even a self-professed anarchist libertarian doesn't know that he has the legal right to refuse any and all medical treatments and interventions on behalf of his children.

[Tigerchild]

Originally Posted by minkajane

It is so incredibly sad that even a self-professed anarchist libertarian doesn't know that he has the legal right to refuse any and all medical treatments and interventions on behalf of his children.

Hmmm, you know, I didn't think of it that way, but yeah...I agree 100 percent. That is pretty sad, when even people who are careful about knowing their rights don't stop to consider it in that arena.

[srain]

Originally Posted by minkajane

The thing that stuck out to me was the author's insistance that both eye ointment and vaccinations were absolutely 100% mandated by law, which most MDCers know is NOT true. It is so incredibly sad that even a self-professed anarchist libertarian doesn't know that he has the legal right to refuse any and all medical treatments and interventions on behalf of his children.

In NY, eye ointment IS mandated by law, unless you're willing to lie and claim a religious objection, and even that can be extremely difficult.

[minkajane]

Originally Posted by srain

In NY, eye ointment IS mandated by law, unless you're willing to lie and claim a religious objection, and even that can be extremely difficult.

It's mandated for the medical professionals to offer it. It's not mandated that the parents accept it on behalf of their child. It would be unconstitutional for a law to be passed mandating a person to accept medical treatment for themselves or for their child.

[vloky]

My bf is allergic to the drug that's in the eye drop and he did not want them putting it in my sons eyes but they HAD too. He cried (bf not ds)


http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...orn/Evan03.jpg

picture he took after drops, poor baby.

[phathui5]

Originally Posted by minkajane

It's mandated for the medical professionals to offer it. It's not mandated that the parents accept it on behalf of their child. It would be unconstitutional for a law to be passed mandating a person to accept medical treatment for themselves or for their child.

From articles I've read, if you deliver in a NY hospital and try to decline the eye goop for your baby, they'll call in social services. Obviously, if you deliver at home, it isn't an issue.

[Lady Lilya]

Originally Posted by minkajane

The thing that stuck out to me was the author's insistance that both eye ointment and vaccinations were absolutely 100% mandated by law, which most MDCers know is NOT true. It is so incredibly sad that even a self-professed anarchist libertarian doesn't know that he has the legal right to refuse any and all medical treatments and interventions on behalf of his children.

I'm in the same state as him. I have found that I can't refuse the eye ointment without filing paperwork with the state in advance. I have a phone number to call to do so, but haven't done it yet. I understand how he feels about it. I don't think I should have to apply to the government to stop my child from getting an antibiotic he doesn't need (after I already proved via blood tests that I have no veneral diseases). If the child ends up born in the hospital for some reason, if I do not have that done in advance, I can't legally decline at that time. If I refuse, they hospital will either do it anyway, or report me to CPS.

In NY, the PKU is mandatory. No way out of it.

Originally Posted by Tigerchild

I like some of the books on the list, but I'm hoping my kids will not be capitalist-centric Libertarians (and while I like regulated capitalism as an economic policy, applying that to political issues squicks me, so I actually dislike Libertarianism), so the author's book won't be on my list. I figure they'll probably go through their Ayn Rand stage in college on their own.

I don't mind my children learning the idea of taking the initiative to produce something and earn an income. I won't be getting his book because it sounds to me like it creates a view of children vs. adults. There is a limit to my anti-authoritarian views. Yes, I resist too much government involvement. But, I don't think we have to destroy the connection between parents and children to teach children to be free. (btw, I am not a fan of Ayn Rand at all, and it never occurred to me to think of her as being connected to libertarianism)

Originally Posted by minkajane

It's mandated for the medical professionals to offer it. It's not mandated that the parents accept it on behalf of their child. It would be unconstitutional for a law to be passed mandating a person to accept medical treatment for themselves or for their child.

It is still constitutional because there is still a way out. Unfortunately, you have to know in advance that there is a procedure. When they are ready to do it at the time of birth, it is too late to object. As with many things in our society, there are options but the information about those options isn't very public. If it wasn't for a mother here on MDC who learned the hard way, I would not have known about this.

[guest9921]

I would consider myself a libertarian, (I need to educate myself much more to actually call myself one.)

Yet, his essay was full of loaded words to a point where I feel he would be ineffective in sharing his point other than to seem a bit off his rocker.

I definitely agreed with him on most points - but I think he ought to look at a little more gentle approach to get his message across.

[karina5]

I think it's interesting that he used the Little House books as something positive to read. I just read an article slamming those books for their racist context and also saying that Pa was sort of a loser.



Whatever...this is not my personal opinion. Frankly, I loved those books as a kid.

[carolynrosa]

I'm a libertarian... This guy seemed misinformed on a few counts, and doesn't strike me as a real anarcho-capitalist. I mean, he DID fill out the form for a SSN after all. Even *we* didn't do that! And he didn't even question the 'mandatory' vaccines???!!!

[erin_brycesmom]

I like some of the books on the list, but I'm hoping my kids will not be capitalist-centric Libertarians (and while I like regulated capitalism as an economic policy, applying that to political issues squicks me, so I actually dislike Libertarianism), so the author's book won't be on my list

Lol, why?

btw, Libertarians don't want capitalism to be "regulated". that would defeat the whole point. as an ap parent, I see no other way to raise my children than to let them do with their money what they choose free from regulation and socialism.

[hergrace]

Originally Posted by erin_brycesmom

as an ap parent, I see no other way to raise my children than to let them do with their money what they choose free from regulation and socialism.

I am interested to know why you think that ap parenting and socialism are incompatible.

Personally, I am both because I see unregulated economic environments as degrading to personhood since they reward competition, exploitation and oneupsmanship and place no value on compassion or interdependence.

It seems to me that ap parenting is about relationships between individuals and economic politics are about relating individuals to society and the two do not necessarily overlap.

[Ceili]

Originally Posted by hergrace

I am interested to know why you think that ap parenting and socialism are incompatible.

I wonder that too.

Also, since the author of this essay also wrote a book, I wonder about his position on copywrite law and whether his book is public domain or if it's somehow okay to let government be involved in that. :

[erin_brycesmom]

Personally, I am both because I see unregulated economic environments as degrading to personhood since they reward competition, exploitation and oneupsmanship and place no value on compassion or interdependence.

Letting a person play out the natural course of their labors is degrading? Wow. That is rich. I guess if someone prepares for a natural birth and gets it and surpasses the risks associated with interventions resulting in a better outcome to the newborn we should go ahead and harm that baby a little to even the score, eh? Or do you pick and choose which topics you want to do this to?

If you are AP, I'm assuming you let your child experience, try, think, etc. Whatever happens as a result of all of those things for him/her do you try to alter those reactions to make sure he doesn't experience any rewards? If not, then why do you want the government to do the same to him/her?

If your child comes up with a good idea and thus makes money from it, you would want that taken from him? You'd rather the money be stolen from him and redsitributed to those who didn't come up with ideas that were as good? So that you won't deman him? I'm really really trying hard to follow your logic, but I'm not seeing it. In this world you wish to create, what exactly would motivate your child and others to come up with good ideas?

A free market does not in any way reward exploitation. Can you explain why you think so? What about the Libertarian view places no value on compassion or interdependence? What it does is lets each person decide for themselves what value to place on compassion and interdependence. As an AP parent I let my child decide that for himself. I don't tell him, nor do I want the government telling him how to place his values. Despite what you may think, people do value compassion even when the government doesn't force them to.

[Lady Lilya]

What rewards exploitation is when the government officials are friends with big businesses and put in place expensive and tedious regulations for compliance that make it impossible for smaller businesses to compete.

[erin_brycesmom]

What rewards exploitation is when the government officials are friends with big businesses and put in place expensive and tedious regulations for compliance that make it impossible for smaller businesses to compete.

That is what happens now in our socialist government. I'm talking about Libertarian government. A Libertarian government only exists for things like nation defense, preventing one from harming another and the legal system. Libertarians are against regulations like which you speak. If any such regulations are in place then such a government would not be a Libertarian government. I think a lot of people here don't understand the Libertarian party.

eta - You might want to do a little research on free markets. And I mean truly free which means free from regulations. That is what Libertarians want.

[Lady Lilya]

Erin,
My background is economics. I know exactly what you are saying.

Unfortunately, the economic education at this time lacks certain essential concepts that are too complex to pick up casually. Books and articles perpetuate these incomplete models, reinforcing the mistaken ideas. It is hard to find GOOD economic books and articles.

When I observe people discussing this kind of matter, it feels to me like they are missing important puzzle pieces that could create a more accurate sense of the big picture.

But, nobody ever wants to hear it, so i just try to be minimally involved in conversations like this. I can't show everybody what they haven't yet seen. And I wouldn't even know where to start.

[erin_brycesmom]

Leigh - I just want to apologize because I thought you were "hergrace" responding to my post where I questioned her statement. That is what I get for trying to get a bunch of posts in while nursing my babe and coloring with my 4 year old at the same time. Anywho, I would not have posted my message to you if I had realized you were not her and taken your words for what they were, seperately. I will try to pay more attention to who is posting next time!