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Why Is It Hypocrisy To Have Different Rules For Adults Than Children?? - Page 6

post #101 of 125
uptownzoo -- wow i wish i wrote that. My thought excately --

Quote:
I believe it is my job to set a good example for my children; I do not believe that I need to make my kids feel like everything is fair.
I would add fair does NOT = the same.

AImee
post #102 of 125
Quote:
Now, I will say that I do eat french fries and I do not eat them in front of my children. I will also say that it is completely hypocritical of me to do so.
Exactly. Just because it is hypocritical doesn't mean it's wrong.
post #103 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveBeads View Post
I'm quoting because I'm trying to remember the original question.

IMO it is absolutely hypocritical to tell a child that they can't have french fries when you eat them if the reasoning is that they are unhealthy (which presumably it is). I wouldn't call it hypocritical to eat french fries and deny them to your child if he/she was deathly allergic to potatoes.

Just because you are able to make the distinction between healthy and unhealthy and your child is not doesn't change the fact that you are deciding that a universally unhealthy thing is okay for you to eat and not your child. To me, that is hypocrisy. If something is unhealthy and shouldn't be eaten then it shouldn't be eaten by anybody.

Now, I will say that I do eat french fries and I do not eat them in front of my children. I will also say that it is completely hypocritical of me to do so.
Ummmm, did you see that I didn't eat them in front of my child, so he has no idea he's being "denied" them.

And I said this before, and I'll say it again right now....this isn't about just french fries (or watered down wine). I was trying to get across the issue that all things might not be appropriate for children as they are for adults, and having boundaries (rules, limitations....whatever you want to call them) may not be a bad thing.

And as I also said, whatever you want to call them (limitations, boundaries, rules, etc...), it seems that most people agree that b/c of a child's small and developing body, and cognitive understandings, we all seem to somewhat agree on this......

*sigh* I feel like this post has really been taken out of context, and people are focusing on weird things like watered down wine and/or french fries.
post #104 of 125
Thread Starter 
Uptownzoo, I love your post!!!

I also agree w/ the person who said that some people might not be liking the idea of saying "No" to a child.

Hmmmmmmm. That's interesting. Wondering if Yooper and some of the others that have not been a fan of the word "rules" feel that way (that they don't tell their child, No, ever).
post #105 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aimee21972 View Post
uptownzoo -- wow i wish i wrote that. My thought excately --



I would add fair does NOT = the same.

AImee
I agree with this as well!!!! (This is also a case of LIFE, as it applies everywhere).
post #106 of 125
I guess for me

differnt rule -- we do call them rules i think it makes it easier ont he child in teh rest of the world when they encounter RULES at teh skate park, the discovery center or school -- but you can call them limits or bounds or whatever....... for kids vs adults, and for diffent kids based on age / matuity / ablity to me is not hypocicy

there is an inherent pawer / ablity differnce int eh adult vs chile or 10 yo vs 4 yo....

to me hypcicy implies an equality -- then having differnt standards. that is the rules SHOULD be the samel; but they are not.... the husband who can go out with buddies and have a beer but the wife can, the ministry how preached anti-gay messages and then has a gay lover......

it is not IMO reasonable for things to be the same between me and a 3 or 4 or 14 yo -- so if we have differnt bounds, or perks, or responiblities that is to be expected....... not for DH and I = I expect things to be equal.

I have made a real effort in my life with my forster kids, with the kids at teh shelter wher ei worked and with all my neices and newphews never to say "do as i say not as i do" and i do know that my example speaks lower than my words. BUT that doesn't mean there are not difference -- and thus differnt things we can or can't do and so on.

AImee
post #107 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by karina5 View Post
Uptownzoo, I love your post!!!

I also agree w/ the person who said that some people might not be liking the idea of saying "No" to a child.

Hmmmmmmm. That's interesting. Wondering if Yooper and some of the others that have not been a fan of the word "rules" feel that way (that they don't tell their child, No, ever).
I have no porblem with the word no. I use it often. Mostly when it is in regards to whether or not I will do things or allow things to be done to me. People say no to me too. I do not aim to avoid the word no. I do aim to take my dd's requests and needs as seriously as I do my own, dh's, and any other person that I care about. I do not believe in setting "rules" that have no purpose other than to make my life easier or to impose my ideals on another. I *do* stop dd and try to help her dd find another way if she is about to do something that will come up against a non-parent-imposed limitation like jumping off the roof (I did not make the rules of gravity) or getting run over by a car (rules of physics). We do not have rules about food, bedtime, friends, TV, teeth, bathing, toys, sharing, etc...... I am especially wary of rules that focus on bodily functions like sleeping and eating. Dd is just as, if not more, capable of knowing her own bodily limitations and needs than any adult I know. Does that mean I do not remind her? No, of course not. If she is about to reach for another brownie, I might remind her about the yucky feeling she got last time she ate one too many. It is still up to her. She cannot tell time. At around 8pm each night I ask her if she is ready for bed. 90% of the time the answer is yes. When it is not, she stays up. I might ask her again in an hour if she does not take the initiative herself. If she appears tired or we have a big day the next day, I will bring that up. But it is still up to her. Dd made it clear at birth that no one can "make" her fall asleep anyway. She even understands that mommy and daddy like time alone, usually to watch movies that scare her, and she has no problem "reading" or listening to books on tape in her room if she is not tired as the night hour creeps later. Because we have not made rules about these things, she is not only very good at listening to her own body, but she is also more than happy to help *us* get what we want just as we do for her.

We do have some family rules that we all agree on. We can eat in the living room, but we must lay a towel on the couch. This applies to all of us. There are some foods none of us are allowed to eat in the living room, like blueberry cobbler. Dd came up with the cobbler rule after she witnessed dh almost stain the couch. We discuss "rules" that make our house run smoothly and they are for everyone. We all agree on them. If someone does not or comes to a point where they do not, we discuss and change as necessary. None of them are set is stone, no one has trumping power, and they are living documents.

I am out in the real world. Most friends and family have rules for their kids. Some operate more like we do. Some of our friends have rules in their house that we do not have in ours. Dd (and the rest of us) have no problem adhereing to the rules of other's when visiting thier house. I would not say anyone is "right". I am also not going to say hypocricy is "wrong". But for my family, parent-imposed rules do not work for us. Our house is far from chaos. Dd feels loved and secure (as far as I can tell). She is very "well-behaved" as is dh and I. Despite not having any rules she brushes her teeth most nights, is well rested, eats far healthier than most kids I come in contact with, says please and thank you most of the time, and everything else people keep telling me she will never do unless I "make" her.
post #108 of 125
Thread Starter 
Thanks for clarifying Yooper. Sounds like your DD has a really good head on her shoulders.

It's interesting....my DH was raised the same way as your DD, and as he says now, "My parents were not doing me any favors" (by not having any rules).

Glad that works for your family, and that you have a daughter that it works for, too.
post #109 of 125
Quote:
Glad that works for your family, and that you have a daughter that it works for, too.
i think thast might be key -- that it works for her DD personlity.

My son, for example, would never "put him self to bed" or even lay him self down.. he goes and goes -- pushing himself harder and getting crankier -- we used to think he was too young for an imposed bedtime and tried to "let him take the lead" we ended up at 2 and 3 am tooooo many nights with a over-tired, melting down child who could took forever to be settled and gotten to sleep. whereas if i take himt o bed at 7, by 8 he is out and all is well, even if at 7 he doesn't "Seem" ready and i am sure when he has words he will say he is not. I am the momma and I know. However one of my dearest freinds has a boy 3 months older than mine -- who goes up stairs and gos to bed, nightor nap, when he feels like it. he loves his toddler bed as he no longer has to wait for someone.

Quote:
It's interesting....my DH was raised the same way as your DD, and as he says now, "My parents were not doing me any favors" (by not having any rules).
I tend to agree there -- my dear freind since gradschool had a great mom, very loveing, but much more in to "consencual liveing, we are all equal people, we are freinds, we can all agree, i will not impose my will jsut cuz i am bigger..." and while we all thought that was awsome in junior high and high school -- Sis admits it didn't help her...Sis had a real problem when faced with authority (school, police, work) and had a lot of trouble learning self-disciplen (for school work and so on) and credits my authoritain oparents with giving her that gift . I love Grandma M and she has "grown up" a lot herself and is not like she was in the 8-'s any more, which is think wills erve all the grand kids (mine and Sis') well. I know that Sis with her two and one on the way, intentially makes different decisions thatn her mom did becuse of the hard time she had from 15 to 25 because of the way M rasied her. Her little sister H is still struggling at 29......

I think it has to do with personality -- maybe?

AImee
post #110 of 125
I will not pretend to have a clue as to what is best for others. I am just answering the question "is it hypocrisy to have different rules for adults than children". I do think so and I aim to avoid it. It is pretty clear that most parents, here and elsewhere might agree that it is hypocritical but feel it has value anyway. Or that it is even necessary. That is cool with me. I just happen to disagree and have stated why.

I was raised in a mostly consensual family and "turned out" just fine....I think However, that is not why we do things the way we do. My sister was raised in the same home and also turned out "just fine" but vastly different than me in many many ways. My dh was raised in a very authoritatarian and is like me in many ways and also "just fine". I have talked to people that I respect very much who were raised in AWFUL homes and I have talked to people that I do not care to ever be around that seem to have been raised in very "respectful" homes. It is all antedotal IMO. I do not believe you can parent empathy or resposibility into a child. You can "make" them be/do those things with rules. But only until a certain age. Perhaps 18 when they move out. Maybe 12 when they get too big to feel like they have to listen to you. Depends on the kid and adults. We are choosing to make that age now so that dd has the opportunity to learn how to make these decisions when she still has a vast network of support.

By nature, I am a very controlling person. I figured out pretty early in dd's life that if I were to have the attitude that I am the boss and I know best, we would all be miserable. I had to change the way I look at people, including small people. Luckily I had a pretty good reference point from my own childhood to draw from. I knew first hand that taking the control out of the relationship would not guarentee a "spoiled" person that cannot function "properly" as an adult.
post #111 of 125
My 5 month old doesn't want to be held when she's going to sleep (well, more now than before).

At one point, I was distraught. I feel so bad putting her down and letting her fuss. But if I continue to hold her, she escalates to all-out screaming.

It breaks my heart either way. But in one case, she fusses for a while then she's out. In the other case, it ends up being traumatic for both of us.

So, as an attached parent, what was I to do?

It was some lovely mammas here who reminded me that attachment parenting is about figuring out what works for THE INDIVIDUAL child. If your child can and will put themselves to bed on time, I think you can let them. Why give them directions when they don't need it?

But if your child will not do so... someone has to, for their own good.

So I think that for the most part, whether you raise your child this way, or that way, or the other way should be first determined by working with your individual's personality and personal needs.

If your child will willingly eat chocolate til they puke, maybe buying them all the chocolate they ask for, every time they ask for it, is not the best idea for them and you?

If your child will have one piece of chocolate and then put the rest away until another time, then it's not really a big deal to buy them a bag/box of chocolates and let them keep it somewhere.

As adults, I think that we must show good examples. I think that we must also remember that every child is an individual, and what works for one, doesn't for another.

It's important to remember, too, that if you have siblings, each of them has to understand, "Well, your sister gets to keep the box because she self-regulates. I have to keep yours, because you choose not to do that. Which is okay, and i'm not punishing you, I am simply trying to help you learn self-regulation."

People can change. Once understanding that the price of pigging out is that you don't get to keep your chocolates in your room, the child may well stop doing so. Or they may not. If they don't, do you simply allow them to make themselves sick repeatedly in order to "keep the peace"?

I personally, would not.
post #112 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by karina5 View Post
Ummmm, did you see that I didn't eat them in front of my child, so he has no idea he's being "denied" them.

And I said this before, and I'll say it again right now....this isn't about just french fries (or watered down wine). I was trying to get across the issue that all things might not be appropriate for children as they are for adults, and having boundaries (rules, limitations....whatever you want to call them) may not be a bad thing.

And as I also said, whatever you want to call them (limitations, boundaries, rules, etc...), it seems that most people agree that b/c of a child's small and developing body, and cognitive understandings, we all seem to somewhat agree on this......

*sigh* I feel like this post has really been taken out of context, and people are focusing on weird things like watered down wine and/or french fries.

Ummmmmm....yeah I did see that you didn't eat them in front of him. And did you see that I didn't make a distinction between whether you eat them in front of him or not? Frankly, I don't think it makes a difference just as it doesn't matter if I tell my child not to smoke and I don't smoke in front of her yet I smoke in the closet. Unhealthy for one is unhealthy for another and I don't practice "do as I say, not as I do" and I don't distinguish whether it is done in their presence or not.

But I also pointed out that even though I find it hypocritical, I do it myself!

I don't know why you are frustrated - you asked a question and you got differing opinions. I don't think I took it off topic at all and I'm certainly not condemning what you do since I do it myself. But I do consider it hypocritical nonetheless.
post #113 of 125
Thread Starter 
Gotcha Lovebeads. Yes, I was being sensitive as a few people seemed to have thought that here I am munching down french fries in front of my child just to tease him or something.....

And, I do welcome other opinions, so that's not the issue. But yes, it was a little frustrating to have so many people talking about wine, lol. As I stated, this is a message board so it will happen, I just was trying to understand where others were coming from.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.
post #114 of 125
No problem Karina.
post #115 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
I am out in the real world. Most friends and family have rules for their kids. Some operate more like we do. Some of our friends have rules in their house that we do not have in ours. Dd (and the rest of us) have no problem adhereing to the rules of other's when visiting thier house. I would not say anyone is "right". I am also not going to say hypocricy is "wrong". But for my family, parent-imposed rules do not work for us.
See, now this I can totally get down with. What is it about child-rearing, and mothering in particular, that makes so many people think that it's OK to preach and judge and label this behavior "hypocrisy" and that behavior "abusive" (and I've seen some wild stuff called abuse, like putting a 4 year old in preschool 2 mornings a week! and this mom asks that mom, "How could you? Don't you even love your child?"

Really, I love love love to debate this stuff. I find it fascinating and informative. I love to get that window into other people's lives, because let's face it, the people I associate with in real life live very much like we do. But I'm baffled by the mean-spiritedness that comes into so much of it. We chose to vax our kids, but I don't go around telling everyone who doesn't that they're neglecting their children! I presume that, if you declined to vax, that you read all the stuff and did your own risk/benefit analysis and came to a different conclusion than we did. Is there room for discussion and debate, even heated? Of course. Do I get to call you names? Absolutely not. Not even on the web, where people can't see my face and don't know who I am.

OK, I know this is kind of OT, but I don't think it really is, because "hypocritical" is itself such a loaded word. I'm increasingly frustrated by communication online because of these issues (and I recently spent hours catching up on Kathy Sierra's frightening situation, far worse than anything I've ever experienced), but IME it's the very worst among mothers. Why in the world would that be?

I'd could go on and on, but maybe this rant is more appropriate to my blog.

Peace
post #116 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivka5 View Post
If I had the same rules for my child as I do for adults, then if she ever hit me I would cut off our relationship and not allow her near me again. If she were whiny and demanding and refused to let me have five minutes to myself all day long, I'd have some sharp words with her and then physically separate us. If she woke me up in the middle of the night, night after night, without being in any particular kind of crisis, I'd explain to her that I really needed my sleep and that she'd have to find some other way of keeping herself entertained and happy at night.

But she doesn't have the same capacities, judgment, or ability to accept responsibility that adults have, so I *don't* have the same rules for her as I do for adults. I cut her a heck of a lot more slack.
Thank you so much for bringing sense to this thread.
post #117 of 125
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LolaK View Post
Thank you so much for bringing sense to this thread.
Huh? Are you saying that other posts had no sense?? I'm confused by this.
post #118 of 125
Quote:
Thank you so much for bringing sense to this thread.
I agree what a great post that illustarted adults and children are so differnt we have to have different rules (quote) for them in our lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivka5
If I had the same rules for my child as I do for adults, then if she ever hit me I would cut off our relationship and not allow her near me again. If she were whiny and demanding and refused to let me have five minutes to myself all day long, I'd have some sharp words with her and then physically separate us. If she woke me up in the middle of the night, night after night, without being in any particular kind of crisis, I'd explain to her that I really needed my sleep and that she'd have to find some other way of keeping herself entertained and happy at night.

But she doesn't have the same capacities, judgment, or ability to accept responsibility that adults have, so I *don't* have the same rules for her as I do for adults. I cut her a heck of a lot more slack.
There are times -- like this very second -- when i would love to tell my 16 mnth old son to go away and let me sleep, and if it was DH pulling on me I would.

It would be nice to let him loose int eh kitchen to fend for himself -- again -- if it was DH I would.

Kids and adults do not have the same ablities, thus they can not handle the same rules -- i thinkk it is gradn that SOME kids can -- thus they need assitance on when and what to eat, when to go to bed, no soda at 6 months no matter how sweet it is and good it taests, knifes are not to be touched and so on.......
post #119 of 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by uptownzoo View Post
See, now this I can totally get down with. What is it about child-rearing, and mothering in particular, that makes so many people think that it's OK to preach and judge and label this behavior "hypocrisy" and that behavior "abusive" (and I've seen some wild stuff called abuse, like putting a 4 year old in preschool 2 mornings a week! and this mom asks that mom, "How could you? Don't you even love your child?"

Really, I love love love to debate this stuff. I find it fascinating and informative. I love to get that window into other people's lives, because let's face it, the people I associate with in real life live very much like we do. But I'm baffled by the mean-spiritedness that comes into so much of it. We chose to vax our kids, but I don't go around telling everyone who doesn't that they're neglecting their children! I presume that, if you declined to vax, that you read all the stuff and did your own risk/benefit analysis and came to a different conclusion than we did. Is there room for discussion and debate, even heated? Of course. Do I get to call you names? Absolutely not. Not even on the web, where people can't see my face and don't know who I am.

OK, I know this is kind of OT, but I don't think it really is, because "hypocritical" is itself such a loaded word. I'm increasingly frustrated by communication online because of these issues (and I recently spent hours catching up on Kathy Sierra's frightening situation, far worse than anything I've ever experienced), but IME it's the very worst among mothers. Why in the world would that be?

I'd could go on and on, but maybe this rant is more appropriate to my blog.

Peace
hhhhhoooooo....... I really like this post.


I really liked your first post!


I have a 13 year old son and an 11 year old daughter (and a smaller son who is 9 - but yours is only 4 so I should stop)..

Anyway. I'm going to totally start stalking you on MDC now! Coolness!
post #120 of 125
My DD is 3, and I feel like boundaries or rules or whatever you call them make her feel safer. If I left everything up to her to decide, I'm sure it would overwhelm her. Plus, what's the fun of growing up if you already get to do whatever you want when you're three?
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