Pregnant and flu vaccine - Page 2

[wallacesmum]

Originally Posted by momto l&a

Wouldn't getting enough selenium pretty much assure a person from not getting the flu?

Sure a heck of a lot safer than the shot IMO

Where can I learn more about this?

[Moya]

Originally Posted by dymanic

reading the cited literature, one gets the distinct impression that the IgG hypothesis was considered, and largely rejected in favor of the cytokine hypothesis.

Reading your posts one gets the distinct impression that you're unfamiliar with the research. You also seem to be unfamiliar with the breadth of immune reactions, which you keep mistakenly pigeon-holing as inflammatory responses. Do you have any evidence that absolutely no cytokines, interferons, etc. are stimulated by the flu vaccine? Of course you don't. How many cytokine molecules does it take to damage a fetal brain? Of course you don't know. No one knows.

No one knows for sure why or what it is about the maternal immune response that damages the fetus. It only came to light very recently that it was indeed the immune response and not the virus itself that was causing the damage. But somehow you think you've proven the vaccine is safe? :

Your argument for the safety of flu vaccination in pregnant women is not only based on the supposition that the vaccine stimulates absolutely nothing but antibodies -- it's also based on the contingent supposition that those antibodies play no part whatsoever in damaging the fetus . Holy crud, fella -- it is currently unknown what aspects of the maternal immune response damage the fetus! You can't claim the vaccine is safe unless you know for certain that antibodies aren't involved! And nobody knows that right now. That's what those papers say. Did you read them? SOMETHING about the maternal immune response to flu virus damages fetal brains. No one knows for sure what that SOMETHING is. There were no footnotes in any of those papers that referred to Dymanic at MDC because 'he's figured it all out'. Please forgive those pregnant women who choose to forego the flu shot until the safety of the vaccine regarding fetal damage is established. Your claims of having logically worked it all out to the contrary, the potential for the flu vaccine to damage fetal brains has not been determined.

[insider]

Originally Posted by Moya

How many cytokine molecules does it take to damage a fetal brain? Of course you don't know. No one knows.

This question is the logic for which my original post was aiming - and it's why I used referenced quotes with little of my own commentary.

Here's the point: since it was not known what specifically about influenza infection damages fetal brains, it was always possible that the flu vaccine replicated those conditions. At the time the vaccine came out no one knew if the vaccine could cause the same fetal damage as the infection. And now it looks very possible, and maybe even probable. These are the sorts of things that some of us would argue should be worked out and researched beforehand, before such a vaccine is ever recommended to pregnant women.

Unfortunately my original post was mischaracterized and cherry-picked so that Dymanic could build his strawman. :

[jenmk]

Umm, Dymanic? Did you read the link I provided in the OP? To the article about a mother's immune system response increasing the risk of schizophrenia and autism? Researchers have studied the effects of flu exposure on pregnant mice, and found an increased risk of autistic-like behaviors in their offspring. They also artificially activated the mothers' immune system without exposing them to the flu (like a vaccine) . . . and found an increased risk of autism in the offspring. That's the science.

[majormajor]

Originally Posted by insider

Here's the point: since it was not known what specifically about influenza infection damages fetal brains, it was always possible that the flu vaccine replicated those conditions. At the time the vaccine came out no one knew if the vaccine could cause the same fetal damage as the infection. And now it looks very possible, and maybe even probable.

are you saying it looks maybe even probable because of the mouse article in the OP? or the rise in autism? or both?

[insider]

I meant there's a decent probability that the cause of fetal damage by influenza infection is a condition replicated by the vaccine - based on the research concerning the specific biological mechanisms (i.e. it's the maternal immune response and not the virus itself that causes brain damage). I think the research was linked to early in this thread.

[majormajor]

is there more research than just the mouse study in the OP? sorry, i know so little about the vaccine in pregnant women. my OB didn't want me getting it so i never looked into it.

[majormajor]

oops, hit post too soon. i remember reading about this in regards to schizophrenia a few years back, was it ever in the news?

[insider]

I think the concern is the paucity of research. Thanks to more recent research we now know that the mother's immune response to flu causes fetal brain damage. The vaccine obviously also stimulates an immune response against flu (it's supposed to do that). So do vaccine immune responses alter fetal brain in any way? No one knows because no one has looked. So we need specific research to determine the nature of maternal immune factors and how they harm the fetus. It's nuts to just assume the vaccine doesn't stimulate the same sort of damage as the infection. The vaccine is credited with stimulating a similar immune response to flu infection when it comes to preventing illness but somehow we're supposed to just assume that the immune response is different when it comes to considering harmful consequences. There is currently no evidence on which to base such an assumption (previously it was based on the erroneous assumption that active viral replication was necessary to cause brain damage). It's something that needs to be ruled out, not just assumed. Some longterm clinical trials would be nice, too, but that won't happen.

[momto l&a]

Originally Posted by wallacesmum

Where can I learn more about this?

Do a google for selenium flu It will bring up loads of info.

I have bookmarked somewhere some info but cant find it at the moment.

[wallacesmum]

Thanks, I'll search. If you have something particularly awesome I would love to see it, but no need to dig!

ETA: found tons of stuff already, but this one is particularly amusing: http://www.skynews.com.au/health/article.asp?id=161854

[majormajor]

Originally Posted by insider

Thanks to more recent research we now know that the mother's immune response to flu causes fetal brain damage.

what's different about the immune response to flu than any other viral infection? or bacterial for that matter?

[Annikate]

My dd's troubles began with the flu shot I had while pg. I'm almost certain of it. See link in my siggy.