circumcision and infants/children - Page 2

[Full Heart]

I would also point out that with an older child they will need stiches just like any other surgery. Dh was circed when he was older and he remembers the pain quite well. He said the cath was the worst followed by the stiches. Dh doesn't wish he had it done when he was too young to remember, he just wishes he never had it done to begin with. He is mad at his parents for it. Needless to say our 5 sons are intact.

[christyc]

Originally Posted by Twinklefae

A little OT but are there truly women out there who care one way or the other? As long as the man had a penis I was never too fussy about whether he was circ'd or not. My DF is not but I can't imagine preferring one or the other? I've been with men who were and who were not. The only difference I ever noticed was in their own enjoyment.

:

[crysmomofthree]

I also wanted to mention I know of some little boys that were circumsized at an older age for various reasons and it was very traumatic for all of them, they didn't want parts of their penis's cut off and were very traumatized by it

[fishface]

Before visiting these forums, I never gave circ a second thought. Though it makes sense that leaving the baby intact is an option, I never considered it as one. My eyes have been opened a LOT! I will certainly not be cutting any baby boys in my future. If my son wants to be circumcised he can get it done himself when he is an adult. It can be done at any age. I wouldn't do it in your proposd age range (was it 6mos to 3 years?). I would wait until the child is an adult and if he decides on his own (no help from me), that he wants circumcised, then he can go right ahead and sign himself up. (but not without lots of information on the benefits of being intact from me!)

[tamagotchi]

Surgery of any kind can be traumatic for a small child, even if pain is well managed. I had eye surgery as a toddler and even though my mother prepared me for weeks by showing me pictures, role playing going to the doctor, talking about what was going to happen, etc., the actual experience was very traumatic for me. I remember being terrified of what was going to happen and struggling with the doctor until I went under the anesthesia.

Your son can have the procedure done when he is an adult, if he decides for himself that he wants it done. It's much less traumatic to have surgery as a consenting adult.

[gcgirl]

DH & I have already decided we're not circumcisizing. However, a recent study came out that suggests uncircumcised men are 60% more likely to contract HIV than circumcised men. I was shocked! Bear in mind this study focused on regions in Africa where HIV is rampant - but it does give us food for thought. Is there maybe some substance to the argument FOR circumcision being healthier? Maybe.

Even so, I'd rather let my son make up his own mind. An adult male can deal with the after-soreness better than an unwitting infant, IMO.

[Romana]

Originally Posted by gcgirl

DH & I have already decided we're not circumcisizing. However, a recent study came out that suggests uncircumcised men are 60% more likely to contract HIV than circumcised men. I was shocked! Bear in mind this study focused on regions in Africa where HIV is rampant - but it does give us food for thought. Is there maybe some substance to the argument FOR circumcision being healthier? Maybe.

I disagree.

I have read the full studies in the PLoS and the Lancet. I'm still not buying what they're selling.

1) They didn't account for the confounding factors, such as co-infection with herpes, malaria, and chancre. Any of these increase your risk for HIV infection.

2) They didn't account for the practice prevalent in the study areas of dry sex -- women, especially sex workers, applying astringents to the vagina to dry up all natural moisture. This makes the tissues of the genitals more like to abrade, allowing for easier HIV infection.

3) They didn't account for the new research demonstrating that the Langerhans cells of the foreskin actually trap HIV. Their proposed protective mechanism, that the Langerhans cells provide a port of entry for the virus, isn't supported by the available science.

4) The studies were all ended early. So the best that the researchers can say is that circumcision may prevent HIV infection in circumcised men more than intact men for 18 months to 2 years. They have no freakin' clue what the long-term numbers are going to look like. It is patently untrue that circumcision will protect against HIV infection in the long run, as the US experience demonstrates.

To use an analogy, if you have a revolver with ten chambers, and you have bullets in 2, and you take 1 out, that's reducing your chance of getting killed in a game of Russian roulette by 50%. However, play Russian roulette repeatedly, and eventually your number's going to come up.

5) The WHO recommendations don't account for the fact that education + condom + fidelity programs have been shown to work, in places such as Thailand and eastern Uganda.

6) Why isn't the WHO talking about female circumcision to prevent HIV? A study presented at the World AIDS conference in 2005 demonstrated that, independently of all other factors such as social and cultural mores, female circumcision was associated with a 25% lower risk of HIV infection. What's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander. Either you promote both, or you promote neither, because both sexes are harmed by circumcision and both have an inherent human right to intact genitals.

From: http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=646274

Julia
dd 1 year old

[Brisen]

Originally Posted by Twinklefae

A little OT but are there truly women out there who care one way or the other? As long as the man had a penis I was never too fussy about whether he was circ'd or not.

I don't know if I can really give an opinion, since I've only had intact partners, but the lubrication problems I had during breastfeeding were greatly helped helped, I think, by having an intact partner. If I were in a position to be looking for a new partner, I would have a hard time not thinking about how a circ'd vs. intact penis would affect my sex life.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

If you go over to the case against circ forum there are links there that refute the hiv/circ aurgument.

Here is more food for thought. If circ helped prevent AIDS then the USA would have one of the lowest HIV infection rates not one of the highest. Because the ones that have the highest incedents of HIV are the ones born during the years when circ was up in the 70-80% range.

Common sense tells me it is a bunch of bull splat. The reason it is working on those men in africa is because after the circ they cant have sex for up to 6 weeks and then they are tought to use a condom. If they just did the basic schooling about condom usage they would no doubt get the same results.

There is actually a study listed in CAC about the foreskin protecting the man.

[ericswifey27]

Originally Posted by gcgirl

DH & I have already decided we're not circumcisizing. However, a recent study came out that suggests uncircumcised men are 60% more likely to contract HIV than circumcised men. I was shocked! Bear in mind this study focused on regions in Africa where HIV is rampant - but it does give us food for thought. Is there maybe some substance to the argument FOR circumcision being healthier? Maybe.

Even so, I'd rather let my son make up his own mind. An adult male can deal with the after-soreness better than an unwitting infant, IMO.

That study was retracted I believe.

[Robinna]

Originally Posted by Individuation

"hey, I'm culturally conditioned to prefer yours, but the girls 20 years from now won't be, and it doesn't really matter if I find my son's penis sexually appealing."

You rock!

I haven't read all the responses, and don't have anything to add... we didn't circ ds because we didn't see any reason to. I don't believe it's appropriate to do cosmetic surgery on babies or small children.

I'm in Canada and my DH is a 1st-generation Canadian with European parents, so he's not circ'd either.

Having had both circ'd and uncirc'd partners quite frankly there's not much of a visual difference, especially when he's aroused, the foreskin pulls way back anyway. (Seriously... it made NO difference to me whatsoever except to be kinda scientifically interested the 1st time! My first partner was circ'd so I was very curious about how/where the foreskin attached on an uncirc'd partner when I got a chance to look LOL!) Anyway feel free to tell your DH I said that if you think it'll help. And I'm OUR generation of course, and both my dad and my brother are circ'd so that was my original "expectation" of the look of a penis. So theoretically if anybody was going to be put off, it would be me.

I can't imagine removing the foreskin for cosmetic reasons.

xo Robin

[lyttlewon]

To the OP it isn't as rare as you think. My father and step father are intact. My cousin's 6 year old is intact and I have several friends with intact sons.

I just wanted to mention that general anesthetic within itself can be deadly. There is no reason to subject your child to it for a totally unnecessary cosmetic surgury.

[SublimeBirthGirl]

Originally Posted by crysmomofthree

I also wanted to mention I know of some little boys that were circumsized at an older age for various reasons and it was very traumatic for all of them, they didn't want parts of their penis's cut off and were very traumatized by it

It's traumatic for a newborn too, but they have no language to talk about it, and no understanding of what's happening to them.

[crysmomofthree]

Originally Posted by SublimeBirthGirl

It's traumatic for a newborn too, but they have no language to talk about it, and no understanding of what's happening to them.

I just wanted to be clear that I do not support routine infant circumscision, I was just pointing out to the op that doing it later on isn't easier. I don't think its a good think to do anytime

and I have 3 boys ranging from 11 to 3 years all left intact all perfectly happy with their penis's and my dh is circ'd and none of the kids have ever cared (maybe not even noticed) that they look different than him when my eldest son heard me talking to a friend about circumcision he was horrifed that anyone would do that to a baby or child

[wannabe]

Since it's a permanent surgery performed purely for cosmetic reasons I would leave it until he's 18 and then let him make the deciison for himself. Then he'll be able to make a fully informed choice for his own body and have his pain adequately controlled by all available drugs.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Twinklefae

A little OT but are there truly women out there who care one way or the other?

Yes. But, it works both ways. I've seen posts here by women who say that being circumcised is a deal-breaker for them, and they won't get involved with a man who isn't intact. My intact brother has certainly never lacked for willing partners.

I've only ever been with circumcised men, so I have no basis for comparison, but there are definitely women who emphatically prefer intact.

[lyttlewon]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Yes. But, it works both ways. I've seen posts here by women who say that being circumcised is a deal-breaker for them, and they won't get involved with a man who isn't intact. My intact brother has certainly never lacked for willing partners.

I've only ever been with circumcised men, so I have no basis for comparison, but there are definitely women who emphatically prefer intact.

Well as a mother I would rather my son not be with a woman that didn't love him for who he is and would reject him over something like that. I say good riddance.

[Jilian]

Originally Posted by lyttlewon

Well as a mother I would rather my son not be with a woman that didn't love him for who he is and would reject him over something like that. I say good riddance.

Exactly, if someone is so superficial that they would make fun of my son for having a penis with a foreskin then that person is not worth my son's time. There are TONS of reasons why young boys could be picked on, but you can't go getting your son cosmetic surgery every time someone makes fun of his appearance. If you felt your son's nose was on the large side would you get him a nose job as a baby?? Would you get him liposuction if you felt he were overweight?

The "someone might make fun of him" argument is really a silly one. My own DP mentions that from time to time and it's just silly. The other big argument that DH/DPs like to give is "I want my son to look like me" - to which I say "Will you dye his hair if it is not the same color as your husbands?" See where I'm going with this?

None of these reasons warrant an unnecessary elective cosmetic surgery and all of the risks that come along with it. I commend you for doing the research on circ!!

[georgia]

Hi, everyone

Mothering.com is the website of natural family living and advocates natural solutions to parenting challenges. We host discussion of nighttime parenting, loving discipline, natural birth, homebirth, successful breastfeeding, alternative and complementary home remedies, informed consent, and many other topics from a natural point of view. We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions on the merits of crying it out, physical punishment, formula feeding, elective cesarean section, routine infant medical circumcision, or mandatory vaccinations.

For more information about circumcision, I suggest the Case Against Circumcision forum for more information, either for searches, research or to start a new thread. Thanks!

This thread is now closed to new posts.

[georgia]

The Case Against Circumcision forum