literal interpretation of bible + no evolution + noah's ark = ? - Page 7

[StacyL]

Originally Posted by the_lissa

OKay. So you do know better than the Pope. That's good to know.

Is there a yawning smiley here? It would apply in this instance.

ETA: I guess this one will have to do:



or this one

[l_olive]

Originally Posted by StacyL

Please, you have yet, nor has any scientist shown an example of one creature "evolving" into another creature.

And you can't use the "that would take millions of years" line because according to your theory there should be plenty of evidence of it just laying around the earth.

Again, why do you require proof of evolution when you require no proof of creationism? You accept the Bible as proof enough and have formulated your belief based on that. I accept accepted scientific research and have formulated my belief based on that.

But I didn't call your belief ridiculous and illogical.

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by StacyL

Ok, since I spent 4 years of college studying your side of the argument, I think you should perform due diligence and at least read the two books above regarding the other side's position. It wouldn't even take you a semester!

I haven't read those particular books, but I have read ad nauseum from the ID and YEC side. Just not those books. If you insist those particular books are that important, I guess I can give it a go. But I have read alot from more recent authors and so-called scientists. But, if those old books are better than the IDers of today, I'll have to take your word on it.

I spent 8 years studying your side of the argument (blind watchmaker and pascals wager and all)

[StacyL]

Originally Posted by orangebird

I haven't read those particular books, but I have read ad nauseum from the ID and YEC side. Just not those books. If you insist those particular books are that important, I guess I can give it a go. But I have read alot from more recent authors and so-called scientists. But, if those old books are better than the IDers of today, I'll have to take your word on it.

Well, I haven't read any new ID books lately, but yes, I think those are quite good. Particularly, the 1941 book - very in depth, I thought.

[orangebird]

OK then. I'll get that one. I'm not sure what it is going to show me

[StacyL]

Originally Posted by l_olive

Again, why do you require proof of evolution when you require no proof of creationism? You accept the Bible as proof enough and have formulated your belief based on that. I accept accepted scientific research and have formulated my belief based on that.

But I didn't call your belief ridiculous and illogical.

Ok, I am allowed to think that the idea of some random elemental molecules assembling themselves into a cell, and then some cells somehow self-organizing into a creature is ridiculous. And I can even state that as my official belief.

You don't need to be offended by my personal belief, nor try to inhibit me making my argument in a debate.

Second, I siad that the theory of evolution is itself plagued with problems that pertain to expected logical outcomes, etc. which make it at it's core, illogical. That again is not personally directed at you.

[StacyL]

Originally Posted by l_olive

Again, why do you require proof of evolution when you require no proof of creationism? You accept the Bible as proof enough and have formulated your belief based on that.

I have given my intellectual assent to the Truth not only as it is revealed by God in the Bible, but also based on the common sense fact of the self-evident nature that surrounds us.

Let me ask you a simple question...put aside the argument of evolution for a moment.

Just at its most basic level, where do you suppose all the molecules of elements that make up all forms of life came from? WHO made them? Where did C and H and O, etc. come from? Surely, you do not suggest they made themselves.

[orangebird]

For the record, I really have no vested interest in evolution being true. Right now it fits with all the evidence. I don't get any brownie points or angel wings for accepting it. To me it is like any other area of science. Really, no skin off my back. I would be just as argumentative if someone wanted to argue a math proof with me and instead of pointing out a flaw or a proof they told me about some mystical creature who wrote a book otherwise, "so it just is!!" Or they used some magical creature to "disprove" a medication's effectiveness. It's crazy!!

It is fine with me if people want to question evolution, or conduct research that might come up with different answers, but it is just silly to me, the major opponent right now, writes evolution off as being so crazy and impossible sounding, but their solution is a magical creature? being the so-called "more logical" explanation? when not making me laugh my butt off, it does get my panties in a wad. It is just so far out there.

[StacyL]

Originally Posted by orangebird

a magical creature being the so-called "more logical" explanation, when not making me laugh my butt off, does get my panties in a wad. It is just so far out there.

You lost me ... are you referring to God?

As in, belief in God, (a "magical creature") is "so far out there?"

Just making sure I understand you.

[l_olive]

Originally Posted by StacyL

Ok, I am allowed to think that the idea of some random elemental molecules assembling themselves into a cell, and then some cells somehow self-organizing into a creature is ridiculous. And I can even state that as my official belief.

Well, of course you are allowed. I have been careful to state that in each of my posts. What I've asked is that you stop asserting that your belief is incontrovertible fact to all.

Originally Posted by StacyL

You don't need to be offended by my personal belief, nor try to inhibit me making my argument in a debate.

I am not offended by your belief, I am offended by the adjectives you use to describe mine.

Originally Posted by StacyL

Second, I siad that the theory of evolution is itself plagued with problems that pertain to expected logical outcomes, etc. which make it at it's core, illogical. That again is not personally directed at you.

You also stated that evolutionists describe their theory as illogical, and I've asked for references to support this statement.

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by StacyL

I have given my intellectual assent to the Truth not only as it is revealed by God in the Bible, but also based on the common sense fact of the self-evident nature that surrounds us.

Let me ask you a simple question...put aside the argument of evolution for a moment.

Just at its most basic level, where do you suppose all the molecules of elements that make up all forms of life came from? WHO made them? Where did C and H and O, etc. come from? Surely, you do not suggest they made themselves.

That is a good question stacy. It really is. But to be clear, lets distinguish origins of life and matter from evolution. They are two different things. Two TOTALLY different things. You understand that, right? I have come to learn that it is really common for creationists to throw questions of origins into the discussions of evolution. I don't know why, don't know if they all read the same book, but they always seem to do it.

OK, it is a fair and good question though, if we were talking about origins.

Let me ask you this, it doesn't seem as hard o believe that a magical being, who is so complex, sprang from nothing?

[StacyL]

Originally Posted by l_olive

Well, of course you are allowed. I have been careful to state that in each of my posts. What I've asked is that you stop asserting that your belief is incontrovertible fact to all.

I am not offended by your belief, I am offended by the adjectives you use to describe mine.

You also stated that evolutionists describe their theory as illogical, and I've asked for references to support this statement.

And yet, you have no problem describing those who believe in creation as crazy or what have you.

I am not even talking about the people who adhere to the theory of evolution. I am stating clearly that the idea of evolution is nuts. I don't mind if you adhere to it, and I won't call you names if you do.

But it doesn't change the fact that, as a theory, evolution makes no sense!

[l_olive]

Originally Posted by StacyL

I have given my intellectual assent to the Truth not only as it is revealed by God in the Bible, but also based on the common sense fact of the self-evident nature that surrounds us.

Let me ask you a simple question...put aside the argument of evolution for a moment.

Just at its most basic level, where do you suppose all the molecules of elements that make up all forms of life came from? WHO made them? Where did C and H and O, etc. come from? Surely, you do not suggest they made themselves.

Personally, I believe they came from God at the moment of the creation of the universe. But I completely respect that there are several different belief systems which have formulated different theories as to how those basic elements came to be.

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by StacyL

You lost me ... are you referring to God?

As in, belief in God, (a "magical creature") is "so far out there?"

Just making sure I understand you.

It is "out there" to me when that is deemed the "more logical" explanation. That's what I mean.

[StacyL]

Originally Posted by orangebird

But to be clear, lets distinguish origins of life and matter from evolution. They are two different things. Two TOTALLY different things. You understand that, right?

Yes, I agree and have no problem with distinguishing with the question of origin itself and evolution as a process. However, they are entwined together because they are both proposed as some kind of unexplained, accidental event process that has no causation, or Author, as it were. In other words, you can't have one without the other.

[StacyL]

Originally Posted by orangebird

It is "out there" to me when that is deemed the "more logical" explanation. That's what I mean.

Oh. So you see the idea of a Creator, or God, as illogical?

[l_olive]

Originally Posted by StacyL

And yet, you have no problem describing those who believe in creation as crazy or what have you.

I am not even talking about the people who adhere to the theory of evolution. I am stating clearly that the idea of evolution is nuts. I don't mind if you adhere to it, and I won't call you names if you do.

But it doesn't change the fact that, as a theory, evolution makes no sense!

OK, now I'm officially angry. Please show me one place where I have described someone who believes in creation as "crazy or what have you".

And once again, it's your OPINION -- not a FACT -- that evolution makes no sense.

Is that statement somehow threatening to you?

[orangebird]

Originally Posted by StacyL

Oh. So you see the idea of a Creator, or God, as illogical?

For the most part, yes.

[l_olive]

Originally Posted by StacyL

Oh. So you see the idea of a Creator, or God, as illogical?

Why do you ask? Do you find the idea that someone could call your belief "illogical" upsetting?

[StacyL]

Originally Posted by l_olive

Personally, I believe they came from God at the moment of the creation of the universe. But I completely respect that there are several different belief systems which have formulated different theories as to how those basic elements came to be.

So, you believe there is a God and He made some things, but He just stopped at the atoms, and the rest just sort of happened accidentally?

So, then the atoms organized themselves into planets and suns and water and clouds and rivers, and toads, and cows, and birds, and people?