Animal Cruelty

[SmoothieChoco]

Unsure if it's okay to write about this here. I just spent some time on you-tube watching animal cruelty video clips to see how bad it really is I guess. I've seen a lot of it before, however I saw about animal fur for the first time, and I'm crying because of it I could not finish watching the clip, worried I'm going to have a panic attack now, dp is out. Horrific, I don't know what more to say besides how can people do it? I feel so helpless and full of hate for these people :

[kaydee]

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It is terribly painful to know how much cruelty, how much suffering, is out there.

I've watched a lot of animal cruelty videos in my work as an animal advocate. Now that I am not doing that work professionally, though, I have made a choice not to watch any more. It is just too damaging to my spirit--and when I am feeling so depressed I am no good to anyone, including the animals.

So be careful with yourself--if those videos are going to be incapacitating, perhaps watching them is not the best choice. You can always read about issues, or trust that you are aware of cruelty and doing what you can not to support it.

And that is where fighting that helpless feeling comes in. You can commit to living a life that causes the least harm, to educating others, to gently inspiring them with your example. You can support organizations doing work to fight the sorts of cruelties you saw. You can put more awareness and love in the world.

Is that enough to end cruelty? Probably not. But it WILL help. And it is all we as individuals can really do.

[rpe]

Originally Posted by SmoothieChoco

Unsure if it's okay to write about this here. I just spent some time on you-tube watching animal cruelty video clips to see how bad it really is I guess. I've seen a lot of it before, however I saw about animal fur for the first time, and I'm crying because of it I could not finish watching the clip, worried I'm going to have a panic attack now, dp is out. Horrific, I don't know what more to say besides how can people do it? I feel so helpless and full of hate for these people :

What you need to keep in mind is that is NOT what commonly happens. Animal rights groups have an agenda and that is to end the use of animals in our lives including eating no more meat. Believe it or not that includes having pets.

Yes cruelty exists just as it exists from one human to another. Without stopping the latter you can't stop the former.

Keep in mind that the animal rights movement puts animals on par with people and often puts animals needs above humans.

[rmzbm]

I can't watch that stuff either.

[athansor]

Originally Posted by rpe

What you need to keep in mind is that is NOT what commonly happens. Animal rights groups have an agenda and that is to end the use of animals in our lives including eating no more meat. Believe it or not that includes having pets.

PETA is often recognized as one of the major animal rights groups, and often cited as more radical than groups like the humane society. Here's their take on pets: http://www.peta.org/about/faq-comp.asp So, where's the animal rights groups that oppose having pets?

Originally Posted by rpe

Yes cruelty exists just as it exists from one human to another. Without stopping the latter you can't stop the former.

Stopping both, or either, are admirable goals. But why does stopping one depend on stopping the other?

Originally Posted by rpe

Keep in mind that the animal rights movement puts animals on par with people and often puts animals needs above humans.

How do you support this claim?

It's horrible to watch things that show animal cruelty. I'm glad that those videos are out there, though. Perhaps seeing things like that will make someone who wasn't aware more of an activist. I spent a lot of time yesterday looking at Farm Sanctuary's noveal.org site. It was depressing, but now I feel armed to speak up if anyone I know is eating or ordering veal. (The clip that looks like the Soprano's is a good one, not graphic, and a good balance of humor that might reach out to a wide group of people).

[rpe]

Here's some places to start. There's a lot of information out there. I recommend reading only a bit at a time and thinking about it.

Here's some quotes from animal rightists which partly reveal their goals. The Humane Society of the US is right in there with PETA.

See Animal Equality and Anti-Humanity

http://www.naiaonline.org/body/artic...ightsquote.htm

Many in the movement itself have no idea of the true goal - to end all animal use. They present themselves as organizations that want to help animals. Who of us doesn't love animals? They know most people do so they make calculated emotional appeals.

Did you know PETA makes little effort to rehome animals? On this site they have public records which show PETA has killed thousands of animals every year. Last recorded year I believe it was approximately 90% of the animals it took in.

http://www.petakillsanimals.com

The Humane Society of the US (HSUS) operates no shelters, no clinics and the bulk of its money goes to salaries, marketing and lobbying. They are not affiliated with local humane societies and in fact charge for assistance even though they have well over 100 million dollars in assets.

Here is a good overview of PETA and the HSUS with links to other references.

http://www.saveourdogs.net/animalrights.html

Another general overview -

http://www.pet-law.com/

There is much more out there. Some of these groups, such as the HSUS, started out as legitimate animal welfare groups.

[TigerTail]

i was amazed learning about declawing recently, the parallels to circumcision- the justifiers sound eerily alike. i had no idea till i adopted a 'declawed' cat (it's depawing, more like). it's crippling and abusive.

[thekimballs]

Declawing IS abusive, but I'm personally all for fur farming (and other farming of all kinds). In the US, fur farmers are humane, careful people with loving families. They're not abusive or cruel.

I've never minded saying that the animal rights movement is, in my opinion and experience, misguided and hardly looking out for the welfare of most animals. If they had their way, I couldn't compete with my dogs, breed them (much less artificially inseminate them), sell puppies or enforce my contracts. I couldn't do the things that make my dogs happiest (working them hard in competitive situations). I couldn't have the elderly horse who currently resides in my back yard. I couldn't breed or raise the goats and chickens that are currently in the plans for the next couple of years, and are (with the dogs) the whole reason we killed ourselves to buy a house with acreage.

I strongly believe that if the animal rights agenda were actually enforced, life as we know it would be infinitely shallower and less meaningful. Humans have lived in relationship with animals since the dawn of civilization, raising, caring for, and (gasp!) eating them too. And as someone who has raised a lot of animals with the express purpose of eating them or using the things they produce (milk, wool) I know that 2% of the experience is the consumption and 98% is the care and effort. That care and effort develops responsibility and empathy, encourages correct priorities, teaches creativity, sharpens medical instincts, and trains you to survive on very little rest and sleep! I can think of no better way to raise a family, and no way that would be more in harmony with the MDC cadre of values, than on a farm that makes things or raises animals that people eat.

Incidentally, there is not a single group that is serious about truly devoting their lives to raising and keeping animals (rather than the idea of animals) that views the animal rights agenda as anything but foolish and misguided. Milk, meat, fur, dogs, cats, alpacas, fish, llamas, from the lowest-profit tilapia farmer to the $60/pelt mink rancher, they all think they're barking up the entirely wrong tree. And since the typical mink farmer has spent about a million hours dealing with, caring for, and harvesting actual mink, and the typical PETA member has spent about zero hours doing any of those things, I tend to be on the side of the farmers.

In fact, I would challenge anyone who is truly interested in supporting the best for animals to do exactly that. Go live on a dairy farm or a salmon farm or a mink ranch for six months. Pull calves, run the milking machines, go on the rounds with the vet, cry with the farmer's wife when a cow dies. THEN see if your statements still ring true.

[athansor]

I think this thread is definately going in a different direction than the original poster intended.
I do think that there are people in the extreme end of the animal rights movement (like the VHEMT group) who say some inflamitory things. I don't think that most people who are invovled with animal rights are focusing there efforts on banning companion animals or riding horses (outside of rodeo and horseracing). Their main focus is often the meat industry, factory farming, and animal testing.

Now, I've lived in an area of the country where within bike riding distance of my house, there were 40 dairys and a number of feedlots. I can't say I've ever seen a dairy owner cry when a cow dies. What I did see were piles of dead bull calves, often put out for the trash, or just left on the side of the road, piles of manure up to 6 feet tall, hundreds of cows crowding under the few shade areas in the 100+ degree heat, and not a blade of grass or a pasture in sight.

Yes, there are some small family farms that take better care of their animals before they go to slaughter, but the majority of meat and milk in this country comes from factory farms and large dairy enterprises. I do think it's a good thing to try and buy meat and dairy products from places like that if you consume them at all. But, I don't think that with the number of people who eat meat and dairy in this world, people could keep up their meat eating habits and get rid of all factory farming.

I guess in my opinion, the best for animals involves not abusing them, eating them, or wearing them, regardless of how they are raised. Check out Farm Sanctuary for a group that is extremely dedicated to the care and keeping of animals.

[rpe]

Originally Posted by TigerTail

i was amazed learning about declawing recently, the parallels to circumcision- the justifiers sound eerily alike. i had no idea till i adopted a 'declawed' cat (it's depawing, more like). it's crippling and abusive.

Who did you learn this from? I've had it done and my cat wasn't crippled and was running around shortly after the surgery. It was a last resort for this cat. I've known a number of cats that had the surgery and they all did great afterwards.

There are two sides to everything.

With regards to Farm Sanctuary, they are another animal rights organization that would like to ban the eating of meat and is actively working for the abolition of farm animals. They are closely aligned with PETA. In 2004 they lobbied to pass anti-veal legislation in New Jersey but....there were no veal farms in New Jersey. They're no more honest than the others.

My point is we must watch and read EVERYTHING on the internet with a grain of salt.

[thekimballs]

Originally Posted by athansor

I guess in my opinion, the best for animals involves not abusing them, eating them, or wearing them, regardless of how they are raised. Check out Farm Sanctuary for a group that is extremely dedicated to the care and keeping of animals.

No, Farm Sanctuary is dedicated to the abolition of farming, to the ending of "ownership" (they always put it in quotes) and, as far as I can tell, to making farmers seem like heartless monsters. In not a single place did I find a statement that raising animals for food under any conditions is OK.

Like I said, go volunteer at a dairy for six months. Live their life. Then see if your statements seem true to you.

[TigerTail]

i like 'the omnivore's dilemma'; i raise my own chickens for eggs, and buy what i can pastured locally where i can go see exactly how they live.

[kaydee]

Originally Posted by thekimballs

Declawing IS abusive, but I'm personally all for fur farming (and other farming of all kinds). In the US, fur farmers are humane, careful people with loving families. They're not abusive or cruel. .

What on earth is humane about keeping wild animals in cages and killing them (usually by some pretty horrific means) so that people can skin them and use their fur?:

[rpe]

Originally Posted by kaydee

What on earth is humane about keeping wild animals in cages and killing them (usually by some pretty horrific means) so that people can skin them and use their fur?:

That is animal rightist propoganda. No question some animals are treated cruelly but its in the furrier's (?) best interest to maintain health for the coat quality. Most of the animals die instantly.

Its a much quicker death than being ripped apart by a predator or starving to death in the wild.

[Mizelenius]

This is somewhat OT but here is what I don't get in regards to fur-- why do people splash paint on fur coats? I don't get it-- it is like further disrespecting the animal because now it gave up its life for NOTHING.

Anyway, back on topic, I can't watch those kinds of clips because ugh, they'd stay with me forever. I just cried the other day when I saw the commercial for the ASPCA, but DH said, "Oh, now we don't have commercials for 'save the children,' we have them for 'save the animals.'" I see his point, though . . .I want to do some volunteer work when my DC get older and I was going to do it at an animal shelter, but maybe that isn't where my time would best be spent?

As for eating animals-- I read Diet for a New America in college and became a vegan. I could think of no good reason NOT to, but then I found out it was very hard, very socially isolating. So, I became a vegetarian, but I know I am still contributing to the cruelty with that path. However, it's the best I can do.

[kaydee]

Originally Posted by rpe

That is animal rightist propoganda. No question some animals are treated cruelly but its in the furrier's (?) best interest to maintain health for the coat quality. Most of the animals die instantly.

Its a much quicker death than being ripped apart by a predator or starving to death in the wild.

Animals in fur farms aren't kept in cages their whole lives?

If not, then how are they kept?

Wild animals with large territorial ranges in nature do not develop dysfunctional behavior when kept caged?

If not, then how do they do in captivity?

They aren't killed by gassing, poisoning, neck-snapping, strangulation, or anal electrocution?

If not, then how are they slaughtered?

Please back up your assertion that the claim of cruelty is mere "propaganda."

Conditions on fur farms are well documented, and not just by animal rights groups, although they are certainly the ones who have been most motivated to expose the conditions there.

For those disinclined to believe the research of AR groups, an interesting read on the morality of fur farming can be found here: The Ethical Case Against Fur Farming.

It was written by an international group of academics, including theologians, ethicists, and philosophers, including the Anglican Rev.Andrew Linzey, who is a personal hero of mine, atheist though I am!

But I don't honestly know what would make someone who claims to care about animals think that caging and killing animals for their fur is okay. Especially because I suspect that they would not want it done to their beloved pets. The cognitive dissonance there is really more than I can fathom.

[kaydee]

Originally Posted by Mizelenius

This is somewhat OT but here is what I don't get in regards to fur-- why do people splash paint on fur coats? I don't get it-- it is like further disrespecting the animal because now it gave up its life for NOTHING.

That was never a widespread tactic, just a well-publicized one. (Producing researched reports on fur farming is far less sexy to the media.) It occurred much more in the 80s than today.

As much as I think fur is an abomination, I would never throw paint at someone wearing a fur coat or deface property. I think that is a terrible tactic when practiced by any group (and every movement has a wing that participates in these types of confrontational actions).

I think the point was to shame people who wore fur and to make people fearful of buying fur. If it worked, it only did so for a short while, given that fur seems to be resurgent in fashion these days (although it is often dyed or cut so that it does not look like real fur). : I don't see it as disrespecting the dead animals; I see it as heaping rage and scorn on the live animal who purchased the dead animals' bodies.

Now, most animal protection groups ask that people donate any furs they have to wildlife rehabilitation groups (they can be used to help sick and injured animals). I believe PETA also donated some to homeless shelters (I guess on the theory that it's okay for people who cannot afford a coat to wear fur, but for those who can choose, it isn't? I never really got this campaign....).

[kaydee]

Originally Posted by Mizelenius

Anyway, back on topic, I can't watch those kinds of clips because ugh, they'd stay with me forever.

They have stayed with me forever, too. That's why I am so committed to doing what I can to not support adding suffering to the world, regardless of the species.

I just cried the other day when I saw the commercial for the ASPCA, but DH said, "Oh, now we don't have commercials for 'save the children,' we have them for 'save the animals.'" I see his point, though . . .I want to do some volunteer work when my DC get older and I was going to do it at an animal shelter, but maybe that isn't where my time would best be spent?

Not sure what your dh means. People can help humans and other animals; it need not be exclusive (that is, I can go fur-free and vegan while volunteering at the crisis nursery). Also, our TV channels have many more save the children ads than they do save the animals (most animal cruelty ads cannot get aired. They are considered "too graphic." Meanwhile, here comes another ad for roast beef and burgers... : )

[athansor]

Originally Posted by thekimballs

No, Farm Sanctuary is dedicated to the abolition of farming, to the ending of "ownership" (they always put it in quotes) and, as far as I can tell, to making farmers seem like heartless monsters. In not a single place did I find a statement that raising animals for food under any conditions is OK.

Like I said, go volunteer at a dairy for six months. Live their life. Then see if your statements seem true to you.

Just me personally, but I agree with them on their stand about raising animals for food.

I've spent plenty of times on massive dairy farms, most things I saw there were pretty horrifying. While I don't equate cows to humans, I do believe that they care for their offspring. Sometimes dairy cows, when they did calf, had their calves taken away (especially if they were bull calves). The cries for their calves were heartwrenching.

Now, honestly, I've only been around one family who was keeping a dairy cow for their own use. That cow definately had it better than at the farms I saw everyday. When I look at milk at the grocery store, though, I'm guessing what I see doesn't come from a pampered cow living on a green pasture.

My guess is that every group who has ever pushed for major social change has at least a few elements with very extreme views. The groups that would be most put out by the social change called for often collect those views, and use them in their own campaigns. If they can scare the majority offolks with their collection of extreme statements, they hope that they will discredit the entire movement, and preserve the status quo. ("So, the animal rights groups want to ban cock-fighting...well, give them your support in this area, and the next thing you know, they will be trying to take away your right to keep your dog, or ride your horse!!!! )

[thekimballs]

You must have been visiting some different dairy farms than I know, because I have spent hundreds of hours and I've seen such "horrifying" episodes as

- being fed carefully balanced food, minerals, and supplements in the morning
- being milked by machine, which is proven to be less traumatic and cause less injury/infection than hand milking, in a spectacularly clean facility
- being let out to pasture all day, where they stand in contented herds and chew their cuds
- being let in and milked in the afternoon, and fed hundreds of pounds of hay and grain overnight

It is true that dairy cows have their calves taken away; so do dairy goats. I maintained my own herd of goats from when I was age 11 on, so I've taken lots and lots of babies away. It was absolutely essential for disease prevention and to feed the babies correctly. The dams never touched the kids; they were caught, dried off, and put in a separate area where the moms could see but not touch them. We came back to the pen, the dams licked off our hands, and all was well. If they cried it was for only a short period--I don't remember it being an issue at all. They looked to me for milking, so any yelling I heard was a mom with a full udder who was mad that I was late.

The calf hutches used on dairy farms are used because they are more conducive to raising healthy and happy calves than any other approach. Farmers don't separate them for fun; they do it because it results in much healthier, calmer babies.

You say "My guess is that every group who has ever pushed for major social change has at least a few elements with very extreme views. "

PETA's president, HSUS's president, official materials, published campaigns--are those extreme? It was Ingrid Newkirk who said that a dog is a rat is a pig is a boy; she said that there should be no domestic animals. Ownership = coercion = slavery. She DOES want to take away my dogs, since they are dogs with jobs like chasing enslaved sheep around. She DOES want me to stop riding my enslaved horse. She DOES want me to stop breeding my captive, enslaved and wronged dogs. She DOES want to end animal-based agriculture. This is not about cockfighting; this is about our relationship with animals at an extremely pervasive level.

By the way, American fur farming is strictly regulated. The animals must have minimum 4000 cubic inch cages, must be inspected regularly, must receive medical attention, and must be euthanized humanely (using CO gas, which is the same method that would be used at a vet's office). They are fed a diet that is actually quite close to their natural one, consisting of fish and eggs and meat.