why an obsession with ivy league?

[meowee]

Why is there so much obsession with kids going to ivy league schools? I went to one and can't say it helped me one bit once I was out in the real world. If anything, it is something of a deterrent, because you spend those years being told how privileged you are and how you will have a leg up on people... but really what it comes down to is strength of character and a reasonable degree of intelligence. People behave as though an ivy league degree is a golden ticket to lifelong wealth and satisfaction. Is it?

[Rico'sAlice]

I could care less. Unless my child is really into football or something I don't expect it to play much of a role in their decision. Curious, (as former attendee) about how much seeing it from inside vs. outside affects ones judgement. I know I thought more of the designation before I actually learned about it. Because, really it is just a sports division.
However, for that same reason I do get irked when people say "Stanford, MIT, etc. should /could be an Ivy" or things like that. Being part of the Ivy League is not a quality rating.

I actually think the Ivy League Wiki gives treats the subject fairly well. Yes, there are lots of associations with the term "Ivy League" but it doesn't change what it is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League

As far as the effect of your school's prestige on future employment, I think that is much more school/department reputation specific. If a school has a very strong, prestigious program in your chosen field then that will matter and whether or not the school is an Ivy will be merely peripheral. For ex, while having studued architecture at Yale (which happens to be an Ivy) has given my brother a "leg up" due to reputation, connections from there, etc, having studied it at let's say Dartmouth (Ivy) would probably not be nearly as good as having studied it at Carnegie Mellon (non-Ivy.)

ETA- I wouldn't want my child to Not attend a school just b/c it happened to be an Ivy for those same reasons.

[EFmom]

I don't get it, either. I have a BIL who is a Princeton grad. From the moment they were conceived, he was obsessed with the need for his kids to go to Princeton. His oldest dd was offered a full tuition, all expenses paid scholarship to another very nice private college, actually her second choice after Princeton. She got $0.00 in financial aid from Princeton, yet she went there instead, and walked away from what was essentially a gift of $150K. His younger ds also recently graduated from Princeton. They are both the type of kids who will do fine in life because they are hard working, very bright, extremely motivated, and are drawn to very employable fields. But they would have done well no matter where they went to college.

BIL has done fine in life. He's an attorney with the state, and makes a reasonable, but not fabulous, living. We like to tease him about his Princeton fetish, and he has admitted that his boss, and his boss's boss are both state university graduates.

You might want to check out the book, The Millionaire Next Door, which looks at the lives of the quietly weathly. These are people who have significant sums of money but don't live flashy lives. Turns out that most of them are state school graduates, not Ivy League types.

[BookGoddess]

My father, his brother, and my cousin are all Ivy grads. Their degrees gave them a supportive alumni network and certain doors opened quickly for them. However, I got an academic scholarship to a large state university so my degree isn't from an Ivy. I didn't apply to any Ivies and didn't have a desire to attend one. I have no regrets about my decision. I think I received a solid education. I've done fine in my career. Besides I wouldn't have met DH had I gone somewhere else.

There's no one size fits all answer. I believe one should pick a school based on its fit for you. There's no right school so much as there is a right school for your interests, potential major, personality, size of the school, people, location, finances, etc.

One has to ask if taking out a huge student loan to attend a prestigious college is worth it. I know what my answer is. One year at one of the Ivies covered all my four years at a fine public university.

A big name school may help with the first job. When you have zero work experience, an employer is more likely to hire the person with the Harvard degree than the person with the degree from Nowhere Junior College. But that advantage is gone once you have enough experience. After that, you're judged on your achievements and accomplishments at previous jobs.

I'm not going to push DD to attend an Ivy. If she wants to attend one that's fine but DH and I will be perfectly happy if she chooses, like we did, to attend a state college.

[kofduke]

I said I was neutral concerning an Ivy, b/c I went to one of those schools undergrad that everyone thinks is an Ivy b/c it's top-ranked but it really isn't an Ivy (because it participates in a much better sports conference ). Any guesses which school? I'd love my DS's to go there even if I had to pay more $$, but I will not be heartbroken if they make a different choice which is right for them.

I also went to an Ivy League law school (Penn) and would prefer my DS's not to attend there, since I think part of undergraduate education is living away from home in a different environment and having that experience. I also didn't love it there, but I think that was just me not loving law school. I found graduates from the state law school to be much better prepared for the practice of law.

[kewb]

I want my kids to choose a college that best fits them and their personalities. If that happens to be Ivy League then so be it. I will say that it does make a difference in the top levels of the Corporate World. Where who you know plays a big part in the jobs you get. I witness it daily where I work. What matters more in business today is where you got your MBA from. If being a big muckity muck in the world of business is important to you then the exclusivity of the Ivy League can make a difference.

[aprilushka]

I went to Yale and value the education I got there (how much it has boosted me since, I'm not sure, but probably some esp since I went to a law school (UCLA) somewhat lower on the rankings) for the education's sake. If my kids want to go to Yale (or another Ivy), that's great and I'll try to help them in any way I can, but if they aren't interested, then so be it. I probably will take them on a tour when they're 13 or 14 of some universities, including Yale, so they can see what different colleges look like anyway. Other than that I don't really care -- and in fact I'd be thrilled if they want to go and get in to UVA, which will be much easier on the finances.

[mata]

only if it's in NYC, so I can visit.

[teachma]

Originally Posted by BookGoddess

A big name school may help with the first job. When you have zero work experience, an employer is more likely to hire the person with the Harvard degree than the person with the degree from Nowhere Junior College. But that advantage is gone once you have enough experience. After that, you're judged on your achievements and accomplishments at previous jobs.

Not always. Many attorneys will say the name of their law school and their rank in their graduating class still matter when seeking to change firms. And, in the field of education itself, it always seems to matter. I have been told, point blank, by two administrators at my last 2 jobs, that I was the most attractive candidate "on paper" largely due to my Stanford degree.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by teachma

Not always. Many attorneys will say the name of their law school and their rank in their graduating class still matter when seeking to change firms. And, in the field of education itself, it always seems to matter. I have been told, point blank, by two administrators at my last 2 jobs, that I was the most attractive candidate "on paper" largely due to my Stanford degree.

Yes. Ime, this is true. (I understand it's not important/maybe shouldn't be important to most foks, but that's different from thinking a particular education doesn't matter). I didn't go to an Ivy, but the school I did go to was known highly in a particular area. No matter what coast I lived on over the years, I always got lots of great feedback, and therefore work, for having graduated from that particular school/program.

Some schools earn and maintain their reps better than others, of course. There are lots of wonderful schools out there, and fit is what matters most.

[jkpmomtoboys]

Originally Posted by teachma

Not always. Many attorneys will say the name of their law school and their rank in their graduating class still matter when seeking to change firms. And, in the field of education itself, it always seems to matter. I have been told, point blank, by two administrators at my last 2 jobs, that I was the most attractive candidate "on paper" largely due to my Stanford degree.

When I went to law school will matter forever to a firm...

[RedWine]

I'm a Harvard graduate, and I firmly believe that Ivies (well, at least Harvard) gives most folks an edge.

Multiple reasons. Number one, Harvard has a gazillion dollars. Anything a Harvard man/woman wants to do, he/she can do. Harvard will find a way to help. Want to go to the Amazon and live with hunter-gatherers for your senior thesis? Yes, we'll help with the money. Etc. There are incomparable opportunities at your feet, and doors swing wide open.

Number two -- the counseling and support system on campus is huge. They want to make sure each of the students does well. Get a C one semester? You'll have a student counselor knocking on your door immediately to see what's going on -- do you need help? Emotional problems? Extra tutoring? Etc.

Number three -- world famous professors and brilliant minds everywhere. And they're accessible. You just sit right down and have lunch with them. You can waltz on up to their office door during office hours, hang out, and shoot the breeze. It's wonderful.

Number four -- it's a club. Special treatment happens all the time, for the rest of your life.

Are these things fair to the rest of the world? Probably not. Do I enjoy being the recipient and part of the club? Absolutely. Do I want my kids to have the same experience? Definitely.

[talk de jour]

So... you want to rectify inequity by perpetuating inequity?

I really don't like that.

[RedWine]

Originally Posted by talk de jour

So... you want to rectify inequity by perpetuating inequity?

I really don't like that.

I wasn't talking about inequity...not sure where you're getting that.

Are you under the impression that everyone in Ivy League breezed in because their parents were rich or something..? Doesn't work that way. At least, didn't for me. I was dirt poor and got a full scholarship to attend. I didn't know anyone, and my parents certainly weren't powerful. I was admitted based on my hard work and academic accomplishments.

Sorry, don't understand the basis of your attack.

ETA: Ah -- are you referring to the last line in my above post? If so, I'm not perpetuating inequity. I'm hoping my children have as many opportunities as they possibly can. Kind of like the way we put 50% of our income away into trust funds...we want them to have options when they are older. Having a certain name on your transcript gives you options. Is it fair? Actually, maybe it is. If they work their buns off and earn the privilege of being admitted...then perhaps it IS fair after all. In any event, it's not perpetuating inequality. That would be like saying that since you live in America and are taking advantage of the relatively better healthcare system here then wherever, that you are perpetuating inequality throughout the world. No, you're simply making use of an available system that's right in front of you.

[velochic]

I want dd to go because that's where the best teachers are. Each school has its strengths, but basically, whatever she chooses, I hope she chooses a school based on the quality of the education and personal fit. The best educations are in Ivy League schools only because the best professors are there. If she chooses state-funded, I'm fine with that. I am public school, state college educated. Dh is private school, ivy league (they recruited him from Turkey with a full scholarship) educated. His education was better.

[Ellien C]

Originally Posted by velochic

I want dd to go because that's where the best teachers are.

Best teachers as measured how? Ivy League professors are known for their research credentials. The quality of teaching is debateable though.

I agree with personal fit. I chose a large college because I knew it was right for me. My brother went to a much smaller school and that was the right thing for him. For some students a smaller college with more personalized attention might be what they need. I know people from Grinell and Antioch and they thrived their, although they could have attended Ivies.

I also work with some ivy leaguers who are saddled with the rep of their school. It's like they peaked in college and now people wonder why they are working for us, or why they aren't moving up faster. I dunno - it's a lot of pressure to live up to.

[jkpmomtoboys]

Originally Posted by RedWine

Number four -- it's a club. Special treatment happens all the time, for the rest of your life.

I think this is probably dependent on your geography. I noticed you live in MA. Here in the Bay Area, the Ivies (yes, including Harvard) don't mean a whole lot to people. There are schools that do, but they're not the Ivy Leagues...

So maybe going to an Ivy League school can be considered important in the Northeast, but I would wager that's about it...

[jkpmomtoboys]

Originally Posted by Ellien C

Best teachers as measured how? Ivy League professors are known for their research credentials. The quality of teaching is debateable though.

When looking at colleges, you have to see what the reputation of the profs. for teaching are. Many times, in schools with great reputations, you only get the great professors for upper level or graduate programs. The rest of the time you get T.A.'s.

[rzberrymom]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but there was a study of students who were offered admission to Ivy League schools but who then attended another school instead. Their level of success was compared to those who chose the Ivy League school--there was no statistical difference in measures of success between the two groups. In other words, if a child is intelligent and motivated enough, it does not matter what university he/she chooses.

Although, I didn't find that to be the case with me. I went to UC Berkeley as an undergrad and then to Princeton as a grad student. By FAR, Princeton did so much more for me, both in terms of academic development and in terms of connections and job opportunities. The quality of undergraduate students also blew me away at Princeton compared to UC Berkeley. But, that's just one person's experience.

[dillonandmarasmom]

Totally neutral

I grew up with some family friends whose 3 boys each received full scholarships to Princeton. One for squash (sport), the other 2 for academics. While the squash player went on to be a neurosurgeon and the middle son is involved with Doctors Without Borders, the youngest became a multi-millionaire via embezzlements and fraud and is now in huge trouble...he was featured on Extra at some point...then was re-featured when the truth came out. Ouch!!
So, I guess it depends on how that Ivy League education is put to use.
I would respect any choice my children make. (I am secretly hoping they'll want to backpack through Europe or join Peace Corps, though...yeah, those were once my dreams )