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so, back to CPS resistance strategies - Page 2

post #21 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by tapmilkmom View Post

I said it on the other thread, but this misinformation keeps surfacing, CPS does NOT need a warrant to enter your home, only your permission. If you say to a CPS worker, "not without a warrant" they will just think you are nuts. There isn't one! (at least not in OK)
Yes CPS does, and to think that there are workers out there who honestly believe they need nothing to enter your home?! Thats pretty scary.

We are federally protected against illegal search and seizure in this country. When CPS wants to come inside your home, they are "looking" for evidence to cooberate what you are being accused of.

There is no reason why you cannot meet with them elsewhere, even on the porch of your home.
post #22 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Periwinkle View Post
Do you have links of these entities recommending BFing past the age of 1 (2 for WHO)? I haven't read ANY and have looked HARD (for my mother's benefit ). From what I've found, if you're BFing past the age of 2, no one is there saying you're doing a good thing.

Thank you.
Try looking on kellymom.com

Quote:
My oldest is only 6. For me it's a fine line between "Find a police officer if you're lost or in trouble" and "Don't give any information to the police without my permission."
When I read Protecting the Gift, Gavin DeBecker says not to tell your kids to find a police officer (in some places that could take a long time) or a security guard (statistically more dangerous than a random person), but to tell them that if they're lost to find a woman and tell her you need to find your mom or dad. A woman is more likely to not leave the situation until she sees the kid with a parent.
post #23 of 206
Kellymom has some good links about the various quotes from different health organizations
post #24 of 206
No one other than family or friends enters into my house without a warrant. If I do not know who is knocking at the door, I exit through my back door and walk to the front to see what they want. That prevents them from sticking a foot in the door and pushing their way in. I will gladly talk to anyone, but the meeting will not occur in my house without a warrant. And no, my house is not dirty. Its next to spotless. If they then get a warrant, there will be a tape recorder and a lawyer present. It's great to have 2 lawyers in the family.
post #25 of 206
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by phathui5 View Post
Try looking on kellymom.com



When I read Protecting the Gift, Gavin DeBecker says not to tell your kids to find a police officer (in some places that could take a long time) or a security guard (statistically more dangerous than a random person), but to tell them that if they're lost to find a woman and tell her you need to find your mom or dad. A woman is more likely to not leave the situation until she sees the kid with a parent.
yeah, i wanted to address this too. i could never ever direct my kids to the police on purpose.
send them to a woman, and a mom if possible.
i mean, if they go to a cop, and the cop does help your kid find you, doesn't that seem like sort of an invitation? the cops ARE who CPS brings with them sometimes, YK. i've never heard a story of 'my kid got lost in the mall and then CPS investigated us', but there are quite a few stories that *I* haven't heard.

so, where do you all think the most appropriate forum is for this topic? i would like to eventually refine it into a small essay of sorts and see it stickied.

for me, the most upsetting thing is just how the general opinion of CPS is so ignorant and naive. if we can help spread the word here, that's a good thing.

oh yeah, i used to keep our videorecorder charged and ready to go. now the kids are into it and it always ends up uncharged. nonetheless, i would be highly likely to start the voicerecorder, then say, 'excuse me while i turn on my videorecorder', even if it had no battery power! anything to send the message that you're not interested in any shenanigans.
post #26 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by tapmilkmom View Post

I said it on the other thread, but this misinformation keeps surfacing, CPS does NOT need a warrant to enter your home, only your permission. If you say to a CPS worker, "not without a warrant" they will just think you are nuts. There isn't one! (at least not in OK)

CPS DOES need a warrant to enter your home without your permission. This is the fourth amendment (protection against unreasonable search and seizure) and is not for the state to disregard. If CPS says "let us in or we'll take away your children" that is also unlawful.
post #27 of 206
After my sister died in 2002 CPS contacted my parents. They insisted on doing an investigation. They tried to continue this even after it was medically proven that her death was caused by an undetected congenital defect that effects 3 % of the population.

My parent's contacted a lawyer. They did NOT allow CPS into their home.

The investigation was closed shortly thereafter.
post #28 of 206
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalenandEllasmomma View Post
After my sister died in 2002 CPS contacted my parents. They insisted on doing an investigation. They tried to continue this even after it was medically proven that her death was caused by an undetected congenital defect that effects 3 % of the population.

My parent's contacted a lawyer. They did NOT allow CPS into their home.

The investigation was closed shortly thereafter.
thank your for sharing. i am so sorry about your little sister.

post #29 of 206
Gavin DeBecker warns against finding a 'cop' because not just good people are in uniforms. Think of all the rent-a-cops in the malls : Anyone can throw on a uniform, but statistically, a mom with kids is not likely to be an abuser.
post #30 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by tapmilkmom View Post
I said it on the other thread, but this misinformation keeps surfacing, CPS does NOT need a warrant to enter your home, only your permission. If you say to a CPS worker, "not without a warrant" they will just think you are nuts. There isn't one! (at least not in OK)
umm, okay, so if you dont give permission for them to enter your home, then they cant come in according to this, but then you say they dont need anything, but can just come in. there has to be something in between here that says howthey can get in if you say no, because other than that, what youve said kind of doesnt make sense and sounds contradictory to what you said before
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unoppressed MAMA Q View Post

one of mine that i have not employed yet-
in IN, you can legally call CPS anytime to see if your name has any complaints against it.

i think it might be way cool if you could get fifty or sixty people to call every day to check in.
and not to pick on you, but this sounds like red flagging them to you having some problem they need to be aware of, rather than making you look good, imho...

i know another one. dont go to a hospital if youre weak and sick. no, seriously. :mad: :sigh:

definitely somehow find supportive people who will help you

live in a community with a real sense of exactly that rather than just a bunch of people stuck near eachother because thery happen to own/rent homes near each other

this isnt realistic around here, but would help- dont do anything non mainstream except the smacking/spanking thing. if youre normal and go with what everyone ELSE does, theres no reason to pick on you because theres something funny about the way you do things, and even with not spanking, since someone could constrew it as abuse, no matter how light the smack.... that could end up being youre a weirdo who lets their kid run wild...

dont ever let anyone see the inside of your house unless its immaculate

if your child has any dirt or food on them, wash them imnmediatly and change clothes if at all soiled

im trying to think here but even doing things perfectly can make people suspicious in itself, sop in some ways youre just stuck and have to hope nothing happens and you never meet a busybody in your life on top of that!
post #31 of 206
I just thought of a few common sense things. These aren't so much resistance strategies, just common sense.

For example, there are several parents on this board who don't believe in well-child checks. I think this is foolish, not because I think every kid needs a WCC, but because a kid with no medical records is going to raise CPS' eyebrows and not in a good way. So....get thee an AP friendly pediatrician, or even a naturopath. Maintaining a relationship with a respected person in the medical community is a good idea regardless of CPS.

Another thing...don't DO stuff that is clearly the antithesis of good parenting practice. If you send your kid to school every day filthy and dirty, someone is eventually going to get called. If your kids are running around the neighborhood unsupervised. If they're in and out of your neighbors houses (without their permission). Keep your kids clean and clothed and fed and you are less likely to have an unwelcome visit.
post #32 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by onelilguysmommy View Post
umm, okay, so if you dont give permission for them to enter your home, then they cant come in according to this, but then you say they dont need anything, but can just come in. there has to be something in between here that says howthey can get in if you say no, because other than that, what youve said kind of doesnt make sense and sounds contradictory to what you said before
What I said (and this is not contradictory!) is that they only need YOUR PERMISSION or the order of a judge. (what you all are calling a warrant). I never entered a home to search, but part of the investigation I was ordered to do was to see the home ,so meeting at McDonalds or the DHS office would not have sufficed. Yes, you can definitely tell them that that is where you will meet them, but, in the state of Oklahoma, anyway, the investigation will not be over until they see the home. There are REASONS for this-what if the children looked okay, but the home was a meth lab? I understand that, to those here, that seems like an EXTREME example, but out in the real world it happens.

Do not give your permission to enter. Get your lawyer, then have them enter. Or just stand there and keep saying,"NOT WITHOUT A WARRANT" even though it makes no sense. :


Yes, I understand that there are difference among the states. What I said was that in OKLAHOMA CPS does not need a warrant.
post #33 of 206
So, from your standpoint.. what happens if a parent says "No. You may not enter." Then what?

If you push by her, or get police to push by.. you are breaking 4th amendment rights. If you leave and come back with court papers allowing you legal access (the warrant) then by law you may enter regardless of who says "No."

What you're telling me is you believe you do not NEED to have those court papers to enter a home if the parent says you may not enter?

Its not making sense.
post #34 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by tapmilkmom View Post
Yes, I understand that there are difference among the states. What I said was that in OKLAHOMA CPS does not need a warrant.
They don't need one, but they can't enter *without permission* without a legal document.

-Angela
post #35 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by tapmilkmom View Post

Do not give your permission to enter. Get your lawyer, then have them enter. Or just stand there and keep saying,"NOT WITHOUT A WARRANT" even though it makes no sense. :


Yes, I understand that there are difference among the states. What I said was that in OKLAHOMA CPS does not need a warrant.
To enter a home without permission of the resident, any goverment agent (such as CPS) needs a warrant....even in OK. Of course, the resident can give permission for the GA to enter the home and for that a warrant isn;t necessary. Though I believe, technically, the warrant would be given to the police who would escort CPS into the residence.
post #36 of 206
Maybe this will clarify things:



Quote:
Demand a Copy of the Search Warrant

You do not have to speak with a Government Agent or allow them to enter your home without a search warrant!

When a government agent (social worker, police officer, etc) comes to your door, they are seeking your consent to allow them into your home. Remain calm. Say something like:

I understand your concerns and I'm happy to cooperate. May I see your search warrant please?

The agent may try to tell you that a search warrant isn't required because you can give voluntary consent or he may try to make you believe you are required to allow him into your home. The agent might say, “I’m required by law to come into your home to investigate.” It is true that the agent is required to make an investigation which may include entering your home. However, this doesn’t give the agent authority to break the law. If the agent needs to enter your home as part of his investigation, he needs to obtain a search warrant.

Remember that the agent is the one asking you to circumvent the law. You are acting within the law and he is asking you to ignore the law, skip procedure and just do things his way.

Don't be intimidated. Keep a proper perspective of the situation; you are willing to cooperate within the law. The law dictates that a search warrant is required before entering a private home. Your position should be:

I do want to cooperate.

I do not want to ignore proper procedure.

Why would you want to circumvent clearly established laws and procedures?

Do not allow the agent to peer inside of your home or view your children. Do not answer any questions without seeing the search warrant and verifying it’s authenticity. Even minor questions such as your date of birth, name, number of children, etc. should not be answered without seeing a search warrant.


GAINING ENTRY BY THREAT OR INTIMIDATION

It is unlawful for the agent to coerce entry into your home by threatening or intimidating you. Federal courts are increasingly finding for parents who sue state agents for coerced entry. The 9th Circuit recently ruled:

Any government official can be held to know that their office does not give them an unrestricted right to enter peoples' homes at will.


[It is] settled constitutional law that ... police could not enter a dwelling without a warrant even under statutory authority where probable cause existed. The principle that government officials cannot coerce entry into people's houses without a search warrant ... is so well established that any reasonable officer would know it.

…appellants' claim, that "a search warrant is not required for home investigatory visits by social workers," is simply not the law.


[N]owhere is the protective force of the fourth amendment more powerful than it is when the sanctity of the home is involved. … Therefore, we have been adamant in our demand that absent exigent circumstances a warrant will be required before a person's home is invaded by the authorities."

— Calabretta v Floyd 189 F.3d 808 (9th Cir. 1999)

In the above case, a social worker and police officer coerced entry into the Calabretta home by threatening to break the door down. Even though the mother ultimately opened the door and allowed them to enter, she did so by coercion which is unlawful. Thus, the agents were held personally liable.

We recommend that you print the highlights of this case and other "warrantless entry" cases to hand to government agents who attempt to coerce entry into your home. You may find these cases on our caselaw page.


EVIDENCE REQUIRED TO OBTAIN A SEARCH WARRANT

In order to get a search warrant, the agent needs some sort of evidence. It can't be an anonymous phone call or allegations without any supporting evidence.

Even when the agent has enough evidence to obtain a search warrant, he is restricted to looking for specific things listed on the warrant. As an example, the warrant may give the agent authority to interview one of your children, this wouldn’t allow him to interview siblings or look through your home. It also wouldn’t require you to answer any questions.

Agents typically do not seek warrants because; a) they don’t have enough evidence to obtain one and b) they don’t wish to be restricted in their “investigations”.

This constitutional protection was put into place to protect families against unwarranted governmental intrusion into their private lives. Don't waive it! When properly used, this protection is adequate to protect innocent families but will not serve to conceal genuine child abuse.

http://familyrightsassociation.com/c...arch%20Warrant
post #37 of 206
Thread Starter 
[QUOTE=onelilguysmommy;7778893]

and not to pick on you, but this sounds like red flagging them to you having some problem they need to be aware of, rather than making you look good, imho...
QUOTE]


oh, no picking on perceived. i hear completely what you say. that's why it would be fun to do if you had FIFTY families doing it, and you contacted media, you made it a 'drawing attention to a problem' sort of stunt.

i probably didn't adequately explain that.

of course, you'd almost have to get an associate's degree to figure out how to talk to the media about CPS.
post #38 of 206
I think what people need to bear in mind when dealing with CPS is your rights don't matter. You can excercise them all you want, and things may go well for you. But they break the law every day & can find a way to justify it. For example...they DO legally need a warrent - but NOT if they deem it an "emergency." They can call the cops & gain access. I've seen it. A judge will back cps in 99.9% of these cases. So know your rights, but plan for what to do if you aren't allowed them too. Another good tip is have someone you trust handy to take immediate custody should the need arise, BEFORE they go to foster care...and make sure it's someone you REALLY trust cuz cps will intimidate these people into turning on you, or at least they'll try. Normal rules just don't apply here. Sadly.
post #39 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThreeBeans View Post
Kellymom has some good links about the various quotes from different health organizations
I've checked there. I'm not seeing it.
post #40 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThreeBeans View Post
Gavin DeBecker warns against finding a 'cop' because not just good people are in uniforms. Think of all the rent-a-cops in the malls : Anyone can throw on a uniform, but statistically, a mom with kids is not likely to be an abuser.
Well, they could be an abuser, but they're not a child sexual predator. They could be the worst mom in the universe, but they're not going to kidnap your kid and rape him/her.

My kids and I play "find the mommy" in public. Like I'll say, "OK, say you can't find me. What do you do right now? [Find a mommy.] And what do you say to her? [My name is ___ and I can't find my mommy. Can you help me find my mommy?] Good. Now look around you - who are you going to go up to?" And then we talk about their choices.

My kids had the whole "find another mommy" schpiel down pat and then I asked them who they'd go find. And I was HORRIFIED by their choices at first. I urge every mother to go through this drill with their kids. We make it as light and fun as possible, but it's really helped hone their decision-making skills. Kids can memorize any Q&A but their choices are a lot more telling, kwim?
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