Is this ridiculous? Straightish F, gay man...?

[fuller2]

I hope someone can give me some insight.

I am the single mom of a 4-year-old. I really want to have another kid, but I think doing AI is probably a bad idea because my son spends so much time with his dad. Kid #2 would not be able to do this, and she/he might be very sad about it. (I am sure my ex would still play with her/him etc. a lot, but it definitely wouldn't be the same.)

I am thinking about trying to find a gay man or a committed gay male couple to father my 2nd kid--both in terms of being a sperm donor AND to actually co-parent the child with me, all the way through adulthood. We're talking daily or almost daily involvement with child from infancy on.

Obviously this requires an enormous commitment by all parties, and I would not do it unless they guy truly wanted to make that commitment and I was absolutely comfortable with them. I prefer a gay couple for this reason; I want someone who has already settled down, as it were. (I do know someone I might ask, but am still pretty shy about it...)

Is this insane? Is it just too complicated? Is it a legal nightmare? Is it some kind of hugely naive faux pas to even think about it?

And if it's NOT insane, then what serious questions/issues should I be thinking about?

Thanks for tolerating this question here.

[Diane B]

OK, this is not my personal experience, but I have two very good lesbian couple friends that have co-parented with a gay male couple from day one - their daughter is now a teenager. (One of the dads is the bio father of their daughter.) I'm not sure what their legal arrangements are. Their care arrangements have changed over time, and at one point, they had to all go to family counseling to get through their difficulties around discipline and parenting issues. For a while, I know that the guys had the child every Wednesday evening, and every other Saturday (or some kind of schedule like that) and saw her periodically otherwise - they were involved at the same church - so my friends are the primary parents, but the guys are definitely her "Daddy" and "Papa" and deeply involved in her life. They were close friends beforehand, so they already had a lot of trust. It seems to me that the key is flexibility and communication.

[osker]

First of all, let me say that your question is totally welcome here, at least in my opinion. Kudos to you for being open-minded! That said, there are a lot of things to think about before going into a plan like this. If it were me making this choice (and I am in no way expecting you to think like I do), I would be looking at my previous relationship with my ex. That might sound a bit weird, but what was your relationship like when you had your son? How did you handle the transition from couple to parent/partners? How are things arranged now with custody, money, emotional support, extended family, etc? I think that this relationship will be your most salient role model, and likely example of how you would go forward with a new relationship.
If you go forward with this arangement will your children be separate on some holidays? They will have different extended families, which could mean larger extended families or it could mean exclusive extended families. Will the 'dads' in question offer child support if you have the child the majority of the time? Would you offer child support if they for some reason had the child the majority of the time?
Thinking to the future, if you find someone that you want to partner with for yourself, would they fit into the picture with these two other dads? Would these dads be okay with stopping by and picking up the child for an evening off schedule if you felt that you needed some time to yourself? Are you on the same page with circumsision choices, medical decisions, education plans? Who would be in charge of these decisions?
As I said at the beginning, I think that you are very open-minded to be thinking about this. Personally, I've thought long and hard about my parenting choices and I know that I couldn't be a single parent because I know how hard it is on a daily basis. I know that I need support from another adult and someone who could just take twenty minutes so that I can breathe every so often. However, at the same time, I wouldn't want to be a co-parent mostly for my own selfish reasons... that my wife and I have taken care of so many other people's kids that we want to be the sole decision makers, schedule planners, holiday enjoyers... while we do need the help of someone else to get pregnant, sharing the rest of the job is just not where we are at this point... But it took a lot of thinking to get there.
It may sound like my perspective is that this would be a bad choice, but I am in no way saying that. I think that everyone has to decide for themselves and for you this may be the perfect choice. At one point we had asked a friend to be our donor, with the idea of "favored uncle" status for the future. After much thought he realized that he's at the point in his life where he would want to be helping to raise any child of his, so our set up wouldn't work for him.
Okay, I think I've rambled enough! If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask... like I said, I've thought about just this situation a LOT!

[thismama]

I did this.

I wish I had not.

It depends on the guy you get. I would next time (if there were to be a next time, which in my world, there will not) lay on the line a lot better than I did this time re: custody, access, and child support. Mine did not think it was his job to pay support, altho he is involved with her and loves her very much.

I found we ran headsmack into the old gender roles, and our long term friendship broke down because of it. Now I feel like a woman with a male ex partner for all intents and purposes.

[Unoppressed MAMA Q]

hi

coming out of queer parent lurkdom...

i am highly primal in my parenting and have a really hard time letting anyone else make any decisions about my children. in truth, i see this as a strong point. i mean, why would i want to compromise my parenting values?-it's THE most important thing i may ever do.

maybe this is not true for you. but if it were me, i would be asking, 'who would like to come along for the ride in a highly committed way?'

i think the best thing a non-primary caregiver can do is to support the primary caregiver. i will listen to another partner's opinions 'til the cows come home, i will read anything they want, discuss it over coffee, wine beer, who cares...
but when it comes down to 'my gut feelings say no to your idea', that's enough for me. and if i could do it over again, i would make sure someone else was on board with that.

my advice is to determine what YOU need in this context, and then proceed. if you are like me and really want to run the show, then you will want legal protection to that effect. i'm not sure what that would entail.

if you are not like me in this regard, you will probably enjoy a much happier life...

[fuller2]

Well, what I'd really like to do is just get a donation and have the kid myself, without 'father' in the picture. But I feel that this would be hard on this child, since my other kid DOES have a father.

I think my desire to have another kid does not outweigh the troubles this might cause this prospective kid, you know?

Maybe I am wrong about this--but I just try to imagine what it would be like to be this 2nd child and watch the other one play with his dad. (On the other hand, I, er, anticipate an extremely stormy adolescent relationship coming when my 1st child turns 13 or 14...so child #2 may be HAPPY she doesn't have a dad ...)

I know my ex would play with kid #2, and in many ways he would probably be like a dad to her, at least when it came to the playing part. (I would not be interested in his input for the other parts of parenting, frankly.)

It just stinks. I really want to have another kid, I know I could do it on my own since I already am. My son would LOVE to have a little brother/sister. I am not interested in a romantic relationship right now (and probably won't for a while) so it's not coming from there. (Frankly, the idea of parenting with a partner in my house seems bizarre to me--I guess it's just what you're used to!!)

I suppose I could just go ahead and have the kid via Internet sperm, and then if someone comes along in my life to be that kid's other parent, that's what would happen. That seems selfish somehow....is it? How would you feel if your sibling had a father--or had two parents--and you didn't?

[osker]

I think that you're swimming in dangerous waters here. If you can state openly that you don't want anyone else to be involved in parenting, then you really shouldn't have someone else involved in parenting! Now, if you find someone that you want to partner with and are willing to make sacrifices for, and the pros outweigh the cons, then I think that that is different... We can never know what our kids will want or how they'll think about things. You can't anticipate how your child will feel about a second parent, and if you're happy and healthy in your relationship with this child and don't point out the lack of parent, I think that you'll be better off. You could always tell this child that s/he came into your life to help you find the person who was going to make a great parent, that s/he came here to make someone else a parent and you just have to find that person together... all sorts of things... Personally, I would rather have one happy parent than two parents who fight or bring each other down.

Good luck,

[thismama]

I am in pretty much the exact same situation as you, fuller2. My first child has a very active, involved daddy. My second child will not.

I have decided, knowing what I now know about mothering and fathers and how many rights fathers have, how few responsibilities, and how very vulnerable it is as a mother to have someone else who can access your child - I will not have another baby's father. No no no. As an act of feminism, self-love, and as an attempt to preserve my sanity, I will not do it.

I too have agonized about the very issues you describe, and have sought much feedback from friends. What I have been reminded of time and time again by women who are dealing with two babydaddies is the following:

1) You have to, you know, deal, with TWO babydaddies. Oy ve, dios mio, what a freaking PITA.

2) You never truly know what will happen in the future, how your first child's relationship wiht her father will unfold, or how much that will matter to your family dynamic.

3) Any other prospective babydaddy is an unknown quantity. They can be a nightmare. They can abandon children, fail to meet responsibilities, and/or parent in ways that you fundamentally disagree with with all your heart, and that you think are actively damaging to your child.

I see how easily this can happen, I watch mamas and the heartwrench as they struggle thru that and fail to be protected by the courts. My child's father, for all his lack of respect and demeaning behaviour toward me, and even tho I had to sue him for child support, he is wonderful and amazing with her. I thank the gods for that and I know I am lucky.

I will not take the risk again, knowing what I now know about that pure love and the raw vulnerability of children.

I plan to be a whole lot of loving mama to help my second child feel they have enough love. I plan to create a loving, whole, full feeling of family. My child will have a mama, and a sister. And possibly another younger sibling, who knows. And then my oldest will be the odd one out, the one with the daddy.

We also hang with lots of lesbian families where the children have two mamas, no dad, and were made from donor sperm. Also with single mamas where the children have or do not have dads, at various levels of involvement, and who find the daddy thing lovely and rewarding, or traumatizing, or neutral.

I also have a loving circle of progressive mama friends, and childless lesbian friends, one or more of whom I hope and believe will fall in love with my child and make a special bond.

And I plan to go the extra mile to ensure my second (and third, and maybe fourth ) child or children have the same love, and special privileges and adventures, as does my child who has a father. I know that will require a lot from me, and I plan to step up to the challenge and provide those things.

I know having a second child as a solo mama means that when my first goes with daddy, I don't get to veg and enjoy my own company, but I will need to make extra loving time and special adventure for my other children. I am fine with that.

I think it is totally doable, and I personally have made the choice not to find a second man to be a father to my subsequent children. Because I do not think it's worth it, in the end, after careful consideration.

[fuller2]

That is really good (and interesting) to hear. I have thought some about the possible problems with ANOTHER "babydaddy," but this makes it pretty blatant.

A lot for me to think about here. Thanks for everybody's responses.

[Ruthla]

Originally Posted by fuller2

Well, what I'd really like to do is just get a donation and have the kid myself, without 'father' in the picture. But I feel that this would be hard on this child, since my other kid DOES have a father.

I'm not gay, but I can comment on this issue.

DDs' dad is my ex-DH and very much involved in their lives. The last time we went to court, it ended with "supervised visitation, supervised by Mom." Basically, that means that Daddy comes to visit about once or twice a week.

DS' bio father was abusive and (untreated) mentally ill and at this point out of our lives forever. DS doesn't remember him at all. As far as DS is concerned, my ex is "Daddy." I didn't encourage that- I wanted DS to call XH "Uncle XHsfirstname" but he copied the girls and I finally gave up trying to stop him, plus XH didn't mind.

Is there any chance your ex would step up to the plate, emotionally, with your second child? You certainly can't get any child support from a child that's not his biologically, but that doesn't sound like your concern- it's the emotional stuff you're worried about.

Even if he's not willing to be "Daddy" again, I still don't think it would be so terrible for your 2nd child. Little sib will have Mommy all to him/herself when big sib goes to visit Daddy.

[Ansett]

Here's an odd question, probably totally unacceptable to you but a possible option. Do you have a civil relationship with your ex? What if you asked him to donate the sperm for the second child? If you agreed in writing that you would not seek additional child support, maybe he would agree? Then the kids would truly have the same father. You have to deal with him already. At least he's a known entity - no surprises. Just a thought.

[Learning_Mum]

Originally Posted by Ansett

Here's an odd question, probably totally unacceptable to you but a possible option. Do you have a civil relationship with your ex? What if you asked him to donate the sperm for the second child? If you agreed in writing that you would not seek additional child support, maybe he would agree? Then the kids would truly have the same father. You have to deal with him already. At least he's a known entity - no surprises. Just a thought.

I was going to suggest this exact thing.

[fuller2]

I do have a civil relationship, more or less, but he has already told me he doesn't want to have another kid. (at least, not with me.) On the other hand, I have not asked him if he would do it just as a donor.

The problem is that he has some pretty serious mental health issues (depression, anxiety) and since I first asked him I have had serious second thoughts about doing it again with him even if he agreed to it. He's very good with little children, even babies--but his behavior can be very random. He is sensitive enough to his problems that I think this is part of why he doesn't want another one.

[thismama]

I think just as a donor is a bad bad idea, personally. Because your second child will wonder why the first one gets parented and s/he does not, by both of their dad.

Seperate donor makes that explanation *much* easier.

[fuller2]

Oh, I'd be totally shocked if he did that--he would absolutely want to parent the child (and I would want him to) -- he's really good with little kids, including babies, and my son has a great time with him. Family is really important to him. So doing it would really be getting him to have another child in pretty much the same way as the first.