Feeding Babies in Traditional Culture - Page 3

[krankedyann]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NursingStudent View Post
there is a window of time for introducing solids that is most beneficial regarding allergies- after 6 months, but well before 9 months of age. The study was done at the Helsinki Skin and Allergy Hospital, and followed breast fed babies into adulthood. Findings were that babies who were exclusively breastfeeding past nine months were far more likely to develop allergies.
Do you know what amount of feeding is sufficient to prevent allergies? I breastfeed almost exclusively for a long time out of laziness. It's far easier to nurse than to think about what food to introduce next, and worry about only introducing one at a time, and make sure it's healthy, etc., etc. etc. Feeding the babies from our meals wouldn't be too difficult though.

This, however, gives no consideration to the idea that infants predisposed to allergies self-select and start solids later as a self-protective measure.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by klg47

Do you know what amount of feeding is sufficient to prevent allergies? I breastfeed almost exclusively for a long time out of laziness. It's far easier to nurse than to think about what food to introduce next, and worry about only introducing one at a time, and make sure it's healthy, etc., etc. etc. Feeding the babies from our meals wouldn't be too difficult though.

This is the million dollar question. Personally I think some of the keys are not just nutritional but also supplementing with bifidobacteria, not vaccinating and avoiding antibiotics. It goes well beyond what food to introduce.

Another example is vitamin A directly influences IgA production, one of the front lines of our immune systems. If the first tiers of the immune system, which includes IgA, is overwhelmed, then that leads to IgG and IgE antibiodies needing to step in. I think vitamin A deficiency plays a large role in allergy development as well.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by krankedyann

This, however, gives no consideration to the idea that infants predisposed to allergies self-select and start solids later as a self-protective measure.

Didn't happen to us, DS ate everything you put in front of him unfortunately!

[klg47]

Originally Posted by JaneS

supplementing with bifidobacteria

How does one go about getting a reliable source of this? Based on the name, I'm guessing that lacto-fermentation would only supply lactobacilli?

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by klg47

How does one go about getting a reliable source of this? Based on the name, I'm guessing that lacto-fermentation would only supply lactobacilli?

No, Bifidobacteria is not a Lactobacillus... it is the dominent strain in large intestine in adults and over 90% throughout gut of babies. Lactobacillus is in small intestine.

I do culture Bifido with my yogurt but only with Bulgaricus and Thermophilus. If you culture with Lactobacillus, they cannibalize each other and one cannot be sure what you have left, what is dominent, etc. For babies WAPF recommends Natren Life Start and I agree, Natren only uses super strains, very impressed with their info. and books.

http://store.natren.com/Merchant2/me...egory_Code=002

http://www.natren.com/pages/natashart3.asp

http://www.natren.com/pages/baby.html

[provocativa]

These were recommended to me http://www.rockwellnutrition.com/pro...id=60&catid=53
Has anyone ever heard of them, Pharmax? They're supposed to be high potency, but I hesitate to drop that much money on a company I've never heard of.
I think a lot about the practice(s) of mothering across time, ancient versus postmodern as do most of us. I don't imagine our ancestresses with baby food grinders, but chewed up bites here and there and sips of broth, certainly. This is how I've tried to feed dd2, self feeding only. But my older child has made sure that the baby has had much verboten food- too much. Oh, the diapers. . . which made me think that that was probably a consideration to the prehistoric mama, whose baby was pooping on her waist in a natural fiber diaper, not hermetically sealed in a Motherease. It's one thing to stuff a baby full of formula and Gerber nonsense when it's going into Pampers in the garbage, and another thing altogether if it's running down your leg!

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by provocativa

These were recommended to me http://www.rockwellnutrition.com/pro...id=60&catid=53
Has anyone ever heard of them, Pharmax? They're supposed to be high potency, but I hesitate to drop that much money on a company I've never heard of.
I think a lot about the practice(s) of mothering across time, ancient versus postmodern as do most of us. I don't imagine our ancestresses with baby food grinders, but chewed up bites here and there and sips of broth, certainly. This is how I've tried to feed dd2, self feeding only. But my older child has made sure that the baby has had much verboten food- too much. Oh, the diapers. . . which made me think that that was probably a consideration to the prehistoric mama, whose baby was pooping on her waist in a natural fiber diaper, not hermetically sealed in a Motherease. It's one thing to stuff a baby full of formula and Gerber nonsense when it's going into Pampers in the garbage, and another thing altogether if it's running down your leg!

I think Pharmax is a decent company for probiotics but I wouldn't give their Neonate to an EBF baby because the dominant strain in an EBF baby's gut should be bifidus infantis. They should receive a probiotic that only contains that strain, like the Natren Lifestart or Solaray BabyLife.

As far as diapers go...it's very likely that traditional cultures actually EC their babies and didn't use diapers at all!

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by kmamma

I would think though that babies also have an innate intelligence and if let to play with foods, they will either reject that which is unfit, or eat it if they need it. They may eat something once, but if their bodies are not ready for it, they will reject it next time around.

Perhaps that's true in some cases, but I certainly wouldn't count on it. My DD was happy to eat foods she was intolerant to, like coconut oil, and she LOVED eggs (not introduced until 13 months), which caused her to spit up and her eczema to flare.

[kmamma]

caedmyn--There may be some issues with body communication going on if your daughter loves food that she is clearly allergic to, especially at such a young age--it's not like she's been indoctrinated about food or anything like it, right.
And with multiple allergies/intolerances, the endocrine system (being responsible for communcation between different body systems) could definitely be needing some support.

[krankedyann]

Originally Posted by klg47

I am always quick to point out to critics that Sally Fallon is not Weston A. Price. Yes, she is the current head of the WAP Foundation, but he did his research before she was born, and we can get lots of useful information from his research without following every single word she says.




Do you know what amount of feeding is sufficient to prevent allergies? I breastfeed almost exclusively for a long time out of laziness. It's far easier to nurse than to think about what food to introduce next, and worry about only introducing one at a time, and make sure it's healthy, etc., etc. etc. Feeding the babies from our meals wouldn't be too difficult though.



I'm afraid that I wasn't able to really follow any of what you were saying. Are you saying that even if we and our ancestors were nutritionally deficient, breastfeeding would still be the best start for a baby? I agree with that. I get overwhelmed thinking that I can't make a difference. There is so much past deficiency to heal, and my own diet is so lacking. I try to remember that every single baby step helps me move toward good health.

Originally Posted by caedmyn

Perhaps that's true in some cases, but I certainly wouldn't count on it. My DD was happy to eat foods she was intolerant to, like coconut oil, and she LOVED eggs (not introduced until 13 months), which caused her to spit up and her eczema to flare.

Craving and withdrawals symptoms when the food is denied is a sign of an allergy. I've seen that in my own kids. They avoid certian foods like the plague, and crave other allergens that have an opiate effect on them.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by kmamma

caedmyn--There may be some issues with body communication going on if your daughter loves food that she is clearly allergic to, especially at such a young age--it's not like she's been indoctrinated about food or anything like it, right.
And with multiple allergies/intolerances, the endocrine system (being responsible for communcation between different body systems) could definitely be needing some support.

That may very well be, but my point is that I don't think you can count on a baby having the proper reaction to a food based on how well their body tolerates it. I do think that if they absolutely refuse a food there might be a reason for it, but loving/hating a food doesn't necessarily mean anything either way.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by krankedyann

Craving and withdrawals symptoms when the food is denied is a sign of an allergy. I've seen that in my own kids. They avoid certian foods like the plague, and crave other allergens that have an opiate effect on them.

I know they are, although I don't think that was the case with DD as she only ate eggs for about 7-10 days before I figured out that she was reacting to them. She just really liked them from the beginning. I wonder if cravings are most likely to happen with dairy and wheat, just because they are the only foods I know of that have opiod-like proteins in them.

[krankedyann]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

I know they are, although I don't think that was the case with DD as she only ate eggs for about 7-10 days before I figured out that she was reacting to them. She just really liked them from the beginning. I wonder if cravings are most likely to happen with dairy and wheat, just because they are the only foods I know of that have opiod-like proteins in them.

Well, I've seen it in my kids with eggs and corn as well, so it isn't just dairy and gluten that gives them cravings and withdrawals. My daughter BEGS for corn.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by krankedyann

Well, I've seen it in my kids with eggs and corn as well, so it isn't just dairy and gluten that gives them cravings and withdrawals. My daughter BEGS for corn.

So much for my theory!

[tubulidentata2]

I've been following this thread with interest but haven't had much to say, since I am still quite a novice in this area. I'm hoping that I am not hijacking the thread with these questions!

Originally Posted by caedmyn

the dominant strain in an EBF baby's gut should be bifidus infantis. They should receive a probiotic that only contains that strain, like the Natren Lifestart or Solaray BabyLife.

Once the baby is no longer EBF, should a different probiotic be given. I bought the wrong type of probiotic (Udu's Choice), but it doesn't really matter because I cannot get my baby to consume it (she is only slightly interested in solids now at 11 months - I can't get her to drink anything from a cup or bottle yet). I was thinking of buying some Natren probiotics, but if she doesn't end up willingly taking them for a few months, will this be a waste of money? Basically, I am wondering when the dominant strain changes. Will the Udu's Choice EVER be useful?

Thanks!

~Carrie

Thanks!

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by tubulidentata2

I've been following this thread with interest but haven't had much to say, since I am still quite a novice in this area. I'm hoping that I am not hijacking the thread with these questions!



Once the baby is no longer EBF, should a different probiotic be given. I bought the wrong type of probiotic (Udu's Choice), but it doesn't really matter because I cannot get my baby to consume it (she is only slightly interested in solids now at 11 months - I can't get her to drink anything from a cup or bottle yet). I was thinking of buying some Natren probiotics, but if she doesn't end up willingly taking them for a few months, will this be a waste of money? Basically, I am wondering when the dominant strain changes. Will the Udu's Choice EVER be useful?

Thanks!

~Carrie

Thanks!

I don't know of any studies specifically on this issue, but what I did was once my DD was eating a fair amount of solids I started giving her a different probiotic. Their gut flora gradually becomes less bifidus-dominant as they get older and by around 5 years of age resembles the gut flora of an adult, so I don't think there's really any "magic age" or right or wrong way to start giving probiotics other than b. infantis. It's not going to hurt to keep giving them the b. infantis certainly but after a while they might get more benefit out of a probiotic with multiple strains.

You don't have to mix the probiotic with liquid to give it to her. You can mix it with food as long as it's not too warm, or she can suck it off your finger if she'll do that. I put the "daily dose" of probiotic on a clean spoon and then get my finger wet and stick it in the probiotic powder and DD will suck it off my finger. The ones for kids usually taste pretty good.

[tubulidentata2]

Thanks caedmyn!

Originally Posted by caedmyn

You can mix it with food as long as it's not too warm, or she can suck it off your finger if she'll do that. I put the "daily dose" of probiotic on a clean spoon and then get my finger wet and stick it in the probiotic powder and DD will suck it off my finger. The ones for kids usually taste pretty good.

Well, if my DD consumed the entire daily dose, that would be a larger volume than she actually consumes in solid food (she ingests about 1/4 tsp on a good day).

~Carrie

[AJP]

Giving probiotics to a baby who is (or was before starting solids) exclusively breastfed and whose mom is healthy (i.e. doesn't have candida problems or gut issues) seems, um, odd to me. Is this what you guys are talking about? I mean, if baby is showing signs of digestive trouble or if mom's flora is out of whack, I could see the use in supplementing. But if all is well with baby and there are no signs of digestive distress or allergy/intolerances, giving probiotic supplements strikes me as inappropriate. Are you only talking about babies who are showing signs of food intolerances? Reading this thread, I'm thinking some moms would be getting the impression that all babies should be getting a probiotic supplement from the get-go, with which I heartily disagree. Not wanting to step on toes, just trying to clarify.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by AJP

Giving probiotics to a baby who is (or was before starting solids) exclusively breastfed and whose mom is healthy (i.e. doesn't have candida problems or gut issues) seems, um, odd to me. Is this what you guys are talking about? I mean, if baby is showing signs of digestive trouble or if mom's flora is out of whack, I could see the use in supplementing. But if all is well with baby and there are no signs of digestive distress or allergy/intolerances, giving probiotic supplements strikes me as inappropriate. Are you only talking about babies who are showing signs of food intolerances? Reading this thread, I'm thinking some moms would be getting the impression that all babies should be getting a probiotic supplement from the get-go, with which I heartily disagree. Not wanting to step on toes, just trying to clarify.

This is JMO, but...I think as a preventitive measure it is a really good idea to give all babies probiotics at birth. There are so many ways that a baby's gut flora can be screwed up (C-section, ONE bottle of formula, antibiotics for mom or baby, vaxes, OTC meds, etc, etc) and it is so incredibly important for them to have good gut flora right off the bat. OTOH, if a baby is past the newborn stage and doesn't appear to have any issues, then I don't see anything wrong with giving (or not) probiotics if you want. I am speaking as the mom of a toddler with multiple food intolerance, eczema, etc so of course that colors my perspective, but if I had known at DD's birth what I know now she would have received probiotics from birth and perhaps all of her issues would have been avoided. (And BTW my DD did not have any of the things I listed above that can screw up gut flora, and I was not aware of having a gut flora imbalance myself, either...so you just never know.) And I am NOT normally in favor of giving any supplements (with the possible exception of sodium ascorbate/vitamin C during illnesses) to EBF babies.

[tubulidentata2]

With 30% (or so) of mothers having C-sections or getting antibiotics for GroupB Strep (or both), quite a few babies start out with bad flora.