REAL touchy subject:)

[prouddfofscorpio]

i know the 3 CRAZIEST things to talk about are religion, politics, and abortion, but i just like to show my feelings.
i've been hearing alot about the whole " fetus: right, or life" thing on the radio lately. to put it bluntly, i beleive in life.
Now its not because i have a daughter i feel that way, and its not from reading other peoples books and such. just the feeling that i think ALL life is important, and has a right to live. yes, even those annoying yellow jackets. what i CANT understand, is that life has been put into catagories. in a lot of jobs, there's the whole "ladder" if youre on the bottom, your a slave. in nature, minks are killed for their skins, and meat left to waste. the list goes on and on in different levels. how about that prom girl a while ago that had her child in the bathroom and flushed them. it only known as murder because it wasnt still inside or a part of her. as soon as it started developing it was a being.
i hear some people say " its my body and noone has the right to tell me what to do". i guess that means that if your child wants to do heroin, or acid its ok. i mean hey.. its their body. what gives you the right to tell them what to do. (i have an opinion on that which ill talk about next time).
what if you have the child and when they come out you change your mind. the umbilical cord is still attached, its apart of you. why not end their life?
anyway im sure i fired ALOT of people up on this one, but.. this IS america. and this is what im leading up to. i know prolifers... AND prochoicers, and am always happy to hear their side of things. in other countries im sure you can get shot for saying something different than the government thinks.
My way of thinking is that EVERYONE is right in their own way. In america you have freedoms and should voice yourself if you wish as long as it doesnt cause physical harm to others. for instance, sure kkk should be able to march without being assaulted, just like some black groups should march and show what they beleive in(of course morally i find it wrong).

and as an ending note, im not religious in ANY way, and am a FREE thinker.
'night all and be kind to your neighbor.
`````kev

[papabliss]

Yup, Can O' worms here. But you are sure welcome to share your feelings as long the Mothering.com discussion board rules are maintained.

Here are my thoughts: As far as classifying degrees of life, it is really impossible. I come from a science background, and have no trouble with the hard-line scientific answer here of: Life comes from life. It cannot be created, only passed on.

When is something alive? Well, it always has been, at least for a very long time anyway. The current life, say you and me, are just extensions of the life that started long ago. We have just been given life by our parents, and it sounds like we both have already passed on some of our life.

Notice I did not address the issues of what life is, exactly when it began, how it began, or if deliberate termination of it is right or wrong. Personally I have strong feelings here, but this is not my thread.

Cheers,

pb

[prouddfofscorpio]

well what are your feelings? im not one to judge. im not going to dislike someone because of their views. im just wondernig what peoples views are and why
kev

[Alexander]

Kev.

How do you define "life"?

a

[prouddfofscorpio]

how did i know i'd hear from you?
i do enjoy your side of things. i dont know much about you, but where do you get your thoughts on things? from books? experience in the field? its great that you have a view on things by doing those things, but i get my views on the way i see things, and about the feelings i get by thinking about things as well as some research now and then. not that im saying your views on things are wrong in any way, but i hope you realize not everything that is read is the truth. it might be in statistical cases, but everyone is different. example.. a book was given to my wife about parenting, and in the book she states baby should go on food around 4months. i dont think she's %100 correct just because shes a licensed pediatrician.BUT those are her views, so shes right in her own way.
ANYway, I see life as anything that has a heartbeat, is animate, or can independantly move on its own. ANything from a hydra, a blade of grass, micro-organisms inthe air, etc..
now i know any bigger creature when moving usually creates chaos in some way. sure without looking i might step on an ant or two, but somethings happen. but if i intentionally see them and just step on them i would see that as wrong.
so thats my view on life, and i'm not in any way trying to put you down. im sure your views are different, and your right in your own way as well
have a happy
kev

[mcimom]

hmmm, i believe life begins at conception. personally (religiously) i am now at a point in my life where i am pro-life. as a family, we are open-to-life (meaning NFP only-if that-as means of BC).

that said, i have close family members and friends who have had abortions and i feel for them. i really feel for them (the parents as well as the unborn/killed life)

on one hand, having sex (protected :LOL or not) has the potential to create life. if you can't handle that life, well, then, you kind of have the responsibility NOT to engage in activity that creates life, imntbho! i mean there are no ACCIDENTS. if you create life, then sex WORKED! that's kind of what it's there for.

on the other hand, of course there are the cases of rape/incest, there are the cases of people's circumstances changing from when they engaged in this life-creating event, there are the cases of moms having multiple babies and "selectively reducing" in order to "save" the other babies OR make life more convenient OR give the other babies a "better chance" OR the options go on.

basically a lot of pro-CHOICE (what a word!) people put life into 2 categories (not all pro-choice folks, ok, lower the flames!):
1) if mom wants it - it's ALIVE
2) if mom doesn't want it - it's tissue and it's her choice

i'm bothered by that of course.

the thing is no one WANTS abortion. no one is intentionally getting pg just for the experience of having an abortion, kwim? some people are irresponsible. some people take every precaution and still LIFE persists and SEX WORKS much to their chagrin. some people are taken advantage of and put in a horrible position. some people really WANT babies so bad, but when one too many (or 2 too many, or 3 too many...) fetuses implant, well, we need to be realistic and pragmatic and get rid of a few of these. some people want ALL those babies, but some just aren't going to live and unless you abort, the others chance of survival is diminished. some people have a spouse/partner die or cheat on them or have health problems themselves.

the thing is i don't know what anyone's situation is. the thing is though i should champion that unborn life b/c they have no voice, how can i force an independent human being to keep that life alive when THEY have to support that life in order for it to continue.

it's a very sticky issue. personally, i think abortion should STILL be legal. but i have been to an abortion clinic. i have been to planned parenthood. and they might say they have counseling, but there is no discussion of adoption. there is no showing you a picture of what your baby, that LIFE, actually looks like inside of you. there is no showing you the ultrasound (even if you ask to see it!).

i just think it is so important that women be COMPLETELY INFORMED before continuing with the option to terminate. no matter how HARD it might be. no matter how TRAUMATIC it might seem. it's probably pretty traumatic to be sucked out of the life you're living, kwim? there's no denying that in a lot of cases, if you let it happen, that LIFE would develop and be BORN and LIVE. that's a big decision to make for a couple of hundred bucks and virtually no real information other than that you shouldn't go swimming afterward and come back in 6 weeks to get checked.

we also have to consider, like everything, there's a lot of $ to be made in the abortion (and BC) industry. parts are sold. though no particular woman probably WANTS to have an abortion. there are plenty of people that WANT abortions to keep happening. and that's very sad.

well, hopefully i've been good. to all. this is definitely a difficult issue.

[earthpapi]

yes a diffucult issue it is.

i was once pro-choice. i really did notknow that much about life and always felt that people can make their on decesions about themselves. learning more and more about life and pregnacy and how everything works my opinion leans more and more towards pro life. i have very very strong feelings about both side though. my step mother use to work for a clinic and i remember all the things that would happen to her clinic and even her.(people take thing way to far) but that still did not really effect me. the main reasons i started to think pro-choice was not because my step mother worked for the clinic was the fact that out of three sisters two of the had one(not when my step mother worked for the clinic and my step mother had no say so on there decision) and then my brother had on well you know not him but his so. it was extremely hard for them to do what they did and i could not find it in me to even me remotely upset. i was acutally happy in a why that they still could live their life the way they wanted to live it.(that was before i learned the things i learned) this is not saying that i am upset at people for getting it done the past is the past can not change what has happened. but knowing what i know about pregnacy there is no such thing as the right time to get an abortion. what has happened has happened. i look at not only my kids but others and think man imageine if somedecided that they should have got one. it makes me ill to my stomach. to me it is kinda you know killing(i hate thinking that is what it really is) there are other options they can do adoption.

i also inbetween these two ways of thinking thought that man if a female got raped then of course it would be alright. boy i still get sick. that is still life, the baby did not ask to be brought into the world with such horror but he/she had not choice. so neither should the mother. in these cases adoption is still there and i can only imageine how hard it is carry a baby around for 9 months reminding a person of such horror. again now thinking that why she has a choice. as you can see rape is still the iffy part in my mind.

my dw told me about some men sueing their parents' doctors and some even their parents because they made him get circ without his approval. abortion--where is the babies' approval

i see why this is a never ending battle.

[candiland]

Just thought I'd jump in here...
it seems to me that the majority of prochoicers I have personally talked to are simply worried about laws being put on a woman's body... for example, if partial birth abortion is made illegal, then second trimesters will be illegal. Then the lawmakers may press to have first trimester abortions made illegal. And then contraception. They feel it's a slippery slope when you start telling women what to do with their bodies. Then an interesting thread went up about a doctor who won an ethics prize for coming up with the idea that parents should have the right to kill a disabled baby up to 28 days of life... after birth. Again, what really makes the difference between a third trimester abortion or a 27-day old neonate "killing"? I think people get so concerned about these "slippery slopes" that they tend to lose sight of what's really, well, real. I can kinda understand it in the first few weeks... but after that, they can feel pain and, once into the second trimester, actually have a chance of life outside the womb. How would that, technically, be any different than birthing the baby and then killing it?

[Paxetbonum]

I too beleive life is sacred from the moment of conception and cannot be destroyed by human beings for any reason save self defense.

But biologicallly speaking and materially speaking one can still not justify aborition. It is the babies body and just because it is dependent on the life system of the mother doesn't make it HER body. Candiland makes the valid point that dependency does not equal inhumanity.

If that were the case then every bf child should fall under the woman's scope of killing. After all it is using HER body for nutrition outside of the womb.

I can see why non-religious people have difficulty in seeing why first trimester abortion is wrong but come on. Done't tell me that a fully formed twelve week old fetus is "just a lump of tissue."

[oatmeal]

couldn't really figure out the point of this thread.

Just wanted to remark I am against abortion. I believe all life is sacred and that a zygote is alive just as much as a late term fetus is alive. I based this knowledge on spirit and I believe it is irrefutable.

I also am liberal and non-religious. I based this knowledge on having had a life growing inside me and that life's connection to spirit speaking to me.

I have a dear friend who is the child of a rape victim and met another woman who was the child of a rape victim at a conference once. Both are gorgeous people who adore their mothers and are ecstatic to be alive.

[Sustainer]

I am pro-choice.

For me, it does not matter one iota whether the fetus is alive or a person or what "level" of living thing it is, or whether it can think or survive outside the womb, etc. The only thing that matters, as far as "rights" are concerned, is that fact that it is inside another person's body. Even though it is not "choosing" to, and even though it can't help it, the fact is that it is living as a parasite inside the body of a host. NO ONE has the right to live inside of another person's body, I don't care what it is or how it got there or what the circumstances are. The host has the right to determine whether or not to allow the organism to live and grow inside her body.

I personally would never have an abortion unless I was raped (I refuse to give birth to a rapist's child, allowing him to succeed in forcefully passing along his genetic code), or unless my life was in danger. But I have no right to control under what circumstances other women choose to terminate a pregnancy. It is none of my business why they choose to. It is their right.