Help me talk my dad out of Zostavax

[freespirited]

He went into the doctor's for a cholesterol check and came out with Zostavax because his doctor said that now that he turned 60 today, he's "eligible"! Only she didn't say it was a vax, she only said it was "giving your body tiny amounts of chickenpox to keep away shingles". Hmmm. I thought it was more like giving your body HUGE amounts of chickenpox. Anyway, he's a very open-minded guy and he would listen to any info I could give him but I don't have much about this. I didn't even know it was an oral vax. His dad had really bad shingles in his late 70s/80s so I think he's concerned about that. My dad is not the healthiest guy and last year had a scare with malignant skin cancer. The last thing his immune system needs is an assault from a creepy vax. TIA!

[mamakay]

Zostavax is an oral vax? Are you sure?

[mamakay]

Zostavax isn't oral...

DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION
FOR SUBCUTANEOUS ADMINISTRATION.
Do not inject intravascularly.
ZOSTAVAX is administered as a single dose.
Caution: Use only sterile syringes free of preservatives, antiseptics, and detergents for each injection and/or reconstitution of ZOSTAVAX. Preservatives, antiseptics and detergents may inactivate the vaccine virus.
Reconstitute the vaccine using only the diluent supplied. The supplied diluent is free of preservatives or other antiviral substances which might inactivate the vaccine virus.
Use a separate sterile needle and syringe for reconstituting and administration of ZOSTAVAX to prevent transfer of infectious diseases.
ZOSTAVAX is stored frozen and should be reconstituted immediately upon removal from the freezer. The diluent should be stored separately at room temperature or in the refrigerator.
To reconstitute the vaccine: Withdraw the entire contents of the diluent vial into a syringe. Parenteral drug products should be inspected visually for particulate matter and discoloration prior to administration, whenever solution and container permit. ZOSTAVAX when reconstituted is a semi-hazy to translucent, off-white to pale yellow liquid.
Inject all of the diluent in the syringe into the vial of lyophilized vaccine and gently agitate to mix thoroughly.

It is live....but live vaxes can be injected. Did they give your dad something oral and say it was Zostavax????

[LongIsland]

Originally Posted by freespirited

He went into the doctor's for a cholesterol check and came out with Zostavax because his doctor said that now that he turned 60 today, he's "eligible"!

Would you clarify - did he get the vaccine?

[freespirited]

Sorry, my dad did not elaborate much the first time I talked to him so I got some clarification. He was given a prescription for it. I am assuming that means he could go to any pharmacy and they'd inject it in him? When I told him it was injected, he went "ewww", lol. He said the doctor seemed to imply that because he'd had melanoma, he was at much higher risk for shingles. Sounds very odd to me. Anyway, now that we have that straightened out, what do you know about this vax? I haven't got a lot of time these days to do research but if you have any good links, that would help as well.

ETA: Eww, it's live? Does that mean my LOs could get varicella from him if he gets the vax?

[mamakay]

I *think* that since people old enough to get Zostavax have had chickenpox before, they probabaly don't end up shedding. But there are probably exceptions to that.

What I'd tell your dad is, instead of giving money to Merck, he can just come over and hang out with your kids when they get chickenpox. It works exactly the same way.

[captain optimism]

I am reviving this thread in hopes of getting more information.

Is there some reason why the vaccine would make someone more immune than having had shingles? I know that most adults who get shingles had chicken pox as children, and the virus lies dormant until the immune system is seriously depressed. My mom's doctor wants her to have the vaccine, though she's already had both chicken pox and shingles.

Why would the live vaccine have a more protective effect than getting sick with the virus? My mom is confused and so am I.

[earthmama369]

It isn't cancer that leads to shingles, it's the treatment. My grandfather got shingles after radiation and chemo.

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by earthmama369

It isn't cancer that leads to shingles, it's the treatment. My grandfather got shingles after radiation and chemo.

Anything that severely compromises immunity can lead to shingles, provided you have the virus already in your system. Both cancer and treatments for cancer come into that category. So does HIV-AIDS. Even not sleeping much and eating badly, if your body isn't that good at resisting illness, can give the virus an opportunity.

That's why I want to know if there is a good reason for someone who has had both chickenpox as a child and shingles as an adult to get this vaccine. I don't understand why taking the vaccine would help. I know this forum is mainly anti-vax and I was hoping for more information than what I've found so far. There has been one significant study of the vax that has persuaded public health officials that everyone over 60 should get it. I want to know how taking the vax differs from the immunity you should get from having had shingles already.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by captain optimism

I am reviving this thread in hopes of getting more information.

Is there some reason why the vaccine would make someone more immune than having had shingles? I know that most adults who get shingles had chicken pox as children, and the virus lies dormant until the immune system is seriously depressed. My mom's doctor wants her to have the vaccine, though she's already had both chicken pox and shingles.

Why would the live vaccine have a more protective effect than getting sick with the virus? My mom is confused and so am I.

There are different types of immune system cells. For some weird reason, when the varicella virus reactivates as shingles, it doesn't stimulate T cells, which are what you need to fight it off when the time comes. It stimulates antibody production, but that's not enough a lot of the time. (T cells aren't antibodies.) The nerve cells the virus hangs out in are somehow shielded from your immune system, as well.

Varicella immunity is really weird like that. It's not like other diseases.

To really understand it in the easiest way, here are some facts.

The chickenpox virus is one of the oldest to infect humans. "Lucy" had chickenpox. We've had chickenpox with us since before we were humans, and there is not a single tiny, remote, isolated village or tribe on earth where people haven't had chickenpox. The virus's survival strategy is flawless. When chickenpox circulation "burns out" in kids, after a while it starts reactivating as shingles in people periodically to make sure the next generation is infected, repeat, repeat, repeat. That way the virus always survives, even when there's only a few kids around at any given time. Evading the host immune response when it's reactivating as shingles is crucial for it's survival in humans, and it takes actual re-exposure to the virus via another source to keep shingles at bay. The vaccine mimics (not perfectly, but fairly closely) the kind of exposure you get by actually being around a kid with chickenpox.

I can find a really good (but fairly technical) paper on it if you want, but that's the deal in a nutshell.

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by mamakay

There are different types of immune system cells. For some weird reason, when the varicella virus reactivates as shingles, it doesn't stimulate T cells, which are what you need to fight it off when the time comes. It stimulates antibody production, but that's not enough a lot of the time. (T cells aren't antibodies.) The nerve cells the virus hangs out in are somehow shielded from your immune system, as well.

Varicella immunity is really weird like that. It's not like other diseases.

To really understand it in the easiest way, here are some facts.

The chickenpox virus is one of the oldest to infect humans. "Lucy" had chickenpox. We've had chickenpox with us since before we were humans, and there is not a single tiny, remote, isolated village or tribe on earth where people haven't had chickenpox. The virus's survival strategy is flawless. When chickenpox circulation "burns out" in kids, after a while it starts reactivating as shingles in people periodically to make sure the next generation is infected, repeat, repeat, repeat. That way the virus always survives, even when there's only a few kids around at any given time. Evading the host immune response when it's reactivating as shingles is crucial for it's survival in humans, and it takes actual re-exposure to the virus via another source to keep shingles at bay. The vaccine mimics (not perfectly, but fairly closely) the kind of exposure you get by actually being around a kid with chickenpox.

I can find a really good (but fairly technical) paper on it if you want, but that's the deal in a nutshell.

That, combined with the thread on Immunity above, explains everything! In this post:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...0&postcount=11

LillithX cited a lot of articles stating that the chickenpox virus was going to result in more cases of shingles. I couldn't understand why that was.

So in fact, the doctor my mom saw explained this backwards. He said he thought they were pushing this on people of grandparent age because they might get exposed to chicken pox. But in fact, it's the other way around! They are all at higher risk for shingles because they WON'T be exposed to chicken pox.

I should tell my mom to take the shot. My plan with varicella was to wait to give it until my son was pubescent. I had chicken pox as an adult, and it was dreadful, but a lot of people who have it as kids don't even notice the symptoms. I thought it made more sense to skip the varicella vax, unless my kid didn't get the illness as a child, and then it might be worth having it.

But my mom is very unlikely to be exposed to a child with chicken pox, both because of the vax and because we live in another city. This is a bummer.

[mamakay]

Yeah...your mom living in another city is a bummer. I plan on rubbing my poxy ds all over my mom when he gets chickenpox...lol...

ETA:
And if the chickenpox/shingles situation makes you angry, it's for good reason. Every once in a while with the vaccine debate, you run into a bit of a "real" conspiracy theory. The CDC knew good and well what was going to happen with shingles after mass immunization for varicella was implemented. They fired their varicella epidemiologist when he refused to withold the data from publication showing that the varicella immunization program was creating an epidemic of shingles, and threated legal action against him.
But he took his research to Europe, and that's why no other country on earth has implemented a mass childhood varicella immunization program.

http://www.pr.com/press-release/22596

http://uk.nntp2http.com/people/healt...852069e79.html

http://www.injectionbook.com/chickenpoxvaccine.html

You can put his name into the CDC search engine, and he's for real. He really was their head varicella epidemiologist. It's crazy, but true.

[captain optimism]

These are interesting links. Could you also give me a link or a reference to the more complicated article that you alluded to, above? My mom was pre-med, years and years ago, and i'll bet she could read it profitably. I want us both to understand why if she's already had both varicella and zoster, she could still get zoster again.