A Worldwide Peace Movement - Page 40

[luckychrm]

I appreciate your considerate response May May. I have definitely seen that The Work can help people recognize when their judgements of others are harmful to themselves and others.

If I come to a place where my inquiry process with The Work is something I am comfortable sharing, I will be happy to post it in this forum.

[yaM yaM]

Here is a sweet video story about the power of perception.



Please note that a facebook account is necessary to view the video.

[yaM yaM]

This is an excellent video about Katie and The Work. The website is in Hebrew and the video is in English.

[neveryoumindthere]

I really like Byron Katie's Work. I find it hard to do with myself though and would prefer a partner.

[luckychrm]

I think that people familiar with The Work and Byron Katie should be aware of the discussion that has been going on at Mothering and across the internet regarding the credential disavowals of Naomi Aldort, who freely advertises that she uses The Work in her counseling/parenting sessions: http://www.mothering.com/community/forum/thread/1215705/can-somebody-explain-naomi-aldort-to-me

That's the mothering.com thread.  Here's Aldort's credential disclaim: http://clarificationstatement.blogspot.com/2011/07/clarification-statement.html

Many of you may be happy with the advice that you have received from Aldort and be completely unconcerned with the fact that her credential is "not credible" according to Aldort herself.  However, there may be others who have felt unsettled or even harmed after an interaction with Naomi Aldort and may have been unsure of what action to take.

If Aldort advertised her credentials to you as psychologist, and if you believed yourself to be receiving the services of a psychologist- especially if you managed to use health insurance or other benefits only granted to psychologists to pay for sessions with Aldort, you may have a valid complaint that you can file with the Washington State Department of Health: http://www.doh.wa.gov/hsqa/professions/mentalhealth/

[yaM yaM]

Wow, that is some surprising news about Naomi Aldort, luckychrm, thank you for sharing.  I'm not understanding how this relates to Byron Katie or The Work, however.  Does her misrepresentation of credentials somehow relate to Byron Katie's Work itself?

[luckychrm]

Originally Posted by Yam Yam 

Wow, that is some surprising news about Naomi Aldort, luckychrm, thank you for sharing.  I'm not understanding how this relates to Byron Katie or The Work, however.  Does her misrepresentation of credentials somehow relate to Byron Katie's Work itself?

Naomi Aldort recently gave a 6 week teleseminar with a Certified Facilitator of The Work Kathy White: http://www.coachthework.co.uk/services/teleseminars/parenting-teleseminar

I think it is important for parents to know that if they believed themselves to be engaging the services of a psychologist and to be receiving factual advice based on contemporary psychology that Aldort has disclaimed those credentials. 

I truly am very happy for people who are able to reduce stress in their life through their experience with The Work.  I've found that some people have a hard time with it, or actually find it harmful, especially those in crisis who think that The Work is a therapeutic treatment for mental health disorders.  Those people might feel afraid to speak up, especially if they received services from an assumed-to-be well respected psychologist sitting on an expert forum at their favorite parenting magazine.

If there is nothing harmful or dangerous about The Work, I think we should be free to discuss what seem to be drawbacks for some who struggle with it, especially around issues of attachment trauma.

[yaM yaM]

What I am hearing is that you feel concern about the Naomi Aldort situation and are also having separate concerns about the practice of The Work itself.

Byron Katie's Work is in no way connected with contemporary psychology nor is it a treatment or advice of any kind.  There are professionals who work in the field of psychology who also practice and facilitate The Work, but The Work is not directly connected to psychology.

Luckychrm, I agree that you and everyone is absolutely free to discuss drawbacks to The Work and I would like to ask that this thread remain in the spirit in which it was created -- to share and practice The Work with those who are interested.  If you believe The Work is harmful or dangerous, I request that you create a separate thread dedicated to that purpose. 

[coffeegirl]

Originally Posted by Yam Yam 

What I am hearing is that you feel concern about the Naomi Aldort situation and are also having separate concerns about the practice of The Work itself.

Byron Katie's Work is in no way connected with contemporary psychology nor is it a treatment or advice of any kind.  There are professionals who work in the field of psychology who also practice and facilitate The Work, but The Work is not directly connected to psychology.

Luckychrm, I agree that you and everyone is absolutely free to discuss drawbacks to The Work and I would like to ask that this thread remain in the spirit in which it was created -- to share and practice The Work with those who are interested.  If you believe The Work is harmful or dangerous, I request that you create a separate thread dedicated to that purpose.

 

Well the upset over Naomi Aldort's credentials is directly related to what a lot of people see as the harmfulness of her advice....advice which is based on The Work and which was given a certain amount of credence because she falsely presented herself as a parenting expert with a PhD in the subject. And also as a "psychologist".

 

If this thread is "support only", I'd be happy to contribute to a separate, "general information" thread about The Work. I personally think it deserves a little more scrutiny then it's getting here.

[yaM yaM]

That makes sense.  Naomi Aldort practices The Work of Byron Katie and your concern is that The Work is responsible for the advice she gave.  I am still requesting that debate about The Work of Byron Katie be set up in another thread.  I would like for this thread to remain focused on the practice of The Work for those who choose to participate and for it not be mixed with critical analysis of The Work.  I believe that those two objectives on the same thread would interfere with each other and want to continue to hold a space here at MDC for those who wish to practice The Work together.

Edited by yaM yaM - 7/13/11 at 1:06pm

[coffeegirl]

Yam Yam, I'll respect that and not try to make this into a debate. Which...actually would be impossible come to think of it because I realized tonight that I don't really understand what The Work actually is. lol I recognize that I have some suspicion toward the concept from the get-go because of the Naomi Aldort association. And in studying, or trying to study, what the trick of The Work actually is....I feel like I'm missing something big. What is the truth in this that so many people are responding to, that I can't see? After reading through this thread....do I have it wrong to think that at it's core The Work is about accepting reality? What confuses me is how, when I read it or look at it in another way, it seems to be about making up your own reality....which I think is the opposite of accepting actual reality. Is it one of those two things? Or is it somehow both? Or is the premise that there is no "real" reality at all? How can the Work work when the reality someone is dealing with is something that is objectively wrong and there's no way that we can deny it's wrongness? Does that make sense?

Is that question appropriate for this thread or would you like me to start a new thread about that (specifically, about understanding what The Work is/how it works)?

[yaM yaM]

Thank you, coffeegirl, and I want to mention again that I fully respect your interest in debating The Work on another thread.  :)


The Work is very much about reality and it is about finding the peace in what is (reality).  There is no 'making up' going on in The Work.  Imagination is a peculiar thing, however.  It causes us to create lots of ‘made-up’ stuff when we don’t check in with ourselves.  The Work is a way to check in with ourselves and find our own truths.  The Work consists of four questions and what is known as a Turnaround.  

The four questions are:

1.  Is it true?
2.  Can you absolutely know that it’s true?
3.  How do you react when you think that thought?
4.  Who would you be without that thought?

And then the Turnaround is where you take the original statement and turn it around to its opposites and find examples of those opposites.

You can read more about how to do The Work here:  http://thework.com/thework.php


So, The Work is literally only questions and about working with your own beliefs.  There is no ‘premise’ to The Work.  The Work doesn’t say anything or do anything; there is no dogma or advice -- all the power is in our answers to the questions (though it sometimes is the case that people project dogma onto The Work and call it The Work).  As individuals, we will all have our own unique stories and responses, so the way we are affected by The Work/our answers to the questions will be unique for everyone.  It’s all about what works and what doesn't, in our own opinion, and I have found this simple method to be extraordinary for my own healing journey.

In response to your question about how The Work works in a situation with something that is objectively wrong, as you put it, I will share my own experience.  

 

I experienced years of a marriage that included physical, mental and emotional violence.  I was introduced to The Work by a marriage counselor in the middle of this violent relationship while making an effort to end the violence - especially for my children’s sake.  At first, I strongly disliked The Work -- I had gone to the marriage counselor (and insisted my husband come along) in the hope that he would set my husband straight and point out the errors of his ways.  The Work seemed like it was oversimplified and dismissive to me at first.  I had wanted the victimization of myself and my children to be the focal point of the counseling.  

 

So I didn’t warm up to it for a while.  Went back to the violent marriage and things stayed the way they were for a while longer.  After some time I reached what I believe to be rock bottom and just couldn’t stand another minute of it.  At that point, I had tried what felt like everything to try to 'fix' my husband and my marriage.  All of my focus had been on those two things since my absolute truth was that his behavior was wrong.  But where was that belief getting me? I felt horrible -- it didn't make me feel better to be right, only more angry. In my desperation and as a result of feeling dead-ended with options, I opened up a little more to the questions of The Work - still believing strongly that what my husband was doing was absolutely wrong.  As soon as I opened up and entered the state of what Byron Katie calls the ‘don’t-know mind’ I was able to be present enough with the questions to sit with them for a while (whereas previously I had very much existed in the ‘I know mind’ where I was sure that his behavior was wrong and that was that - I was not willing even to consider looking at things any other way).   

 

In filling out the Judge Your Neighbor Worksheet ( http://thework.com/downloads/worksheets/JudgeYourNeighbor_Worksheet.pdf ) and answering the questions, I began to find my part in things.  What was my part?  My part was that I stayed around and allowed his behavior in my presence and subjected my children to it (provided an audience/receptacle).  My part was that I believed he shouldn’t behave the way that he was and so I was bitterly shocked every time he behaved that way (the shock hurt me).  My part was that I expected and demanded that he change and when he didn’t, I reacted with manipulation and cruelty.  My part was that part of me believed him and agreed with him when he said mean things to me and my children.  My part was that I told myself a story, a made-up, pretend fantasy about how this was all his fault (handing over ALL of the power in the situation to him) and we were victims and helpless and I had nowhere to go.  I made myself powerless when I believed these thoughts.  The few alternatives available to me, while not without their own sets of challenges and flaws, effectively disappeared when I believed this story.  I told myself I was stuck and trapped.  I became severely depressed and unavailable to my children because I believed so strongly that I was stuck and helpless.

The bottom line was that I had cut myself off from the resources and perspectives available to me in my desire to be ‘right’ about how wrong my husband was.  As soon as I began questioning my concepts around this situation and turning them around, I began to find my power.  I diligently answered the questions with each painful thought about my marriage, one at a time, until the day came when I realized my truth.  My truth - the truth that I had found by answering the questions - was that this behavior was right for him - this was true for him. How arrogant of me to dictate his behavior?  I even saw that I needed to have this experience in order to become clearer about some things - namely my own power.  As soon as I found that I was able to move into a healthier life with little effort and a lot of grace.  I knew that it was not true for me to be part of that relationship.

 

Eventually, my husband and I parted ways and the intelligence that arose from my peaceful new way of reacting to the reality of the situation led me to make a lot of powerful and healthy decisions for myself and my children.  I no longer felt trapped or even dependent at all on his participation in any of my truths. I was moving forward with my truth with or without him and that felt really, really good. I also got to show my children, step by step, the way out of a very challenging situation. They watched me take back my power and become fully alive -- more alive than I'd been going into the marriage.

 

I now live alone with my children and we are no longer exposed to their father’s violent behavior.  In fact, he has not behaved violently in a long time.  Who knows?  Maybe my removing my availability/attention for it was helpful to him in some way.  I can’t know his truth but I can know my own, and it is that it's no longer true for me to contribute dysfunctional behavior to my relationships with others.  I want to bring purposefulness and conscious intention into my relationships and I am able to actualize that better now than ever before in my life because I have learned how to do it (turns out, my ex was a great teacher). I no longer exist passively in my relationships.

This is of course the short version.. there are many other details I’ve left out of this story.  And this story is only my experience - it is not instructions or advice or criticism for anyone else's life or choices. But the point I am hoping to make is that I no longer see my ex-husband’s behavior as ‘wrong’, I no longer see myself as the authority over him and I no longer see myself and my children as victims.  I no longer NEED to see things that way.  Finding my part and my power in things felt and feels so much better to me.  I had it all wrong -- I believed that finding my part in things would be about blaming myself for his behavior and support him in continuing to treat me that way, but it was the complete reverse -- finding my part in things empowered me to see where I COULD do something about my situation and helped me to distinguish more clearly the difference between my ex-husband’s behavior and responsibilities and my behavior and responsibilities.  I (thankfully) have no power over others (wouldn't want it anyway -- too stressful!) but have found that all the power in the world (i.e. my reality) lives within me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[coffeegirl]

Thank you for sharing that Yam Yam. (Again, just let me know and I'll move this post into a new OP if you think this direction is distracting to your OP.) I'm actually not interested in debating The Work...I think I was before, but I'd rather just understand it now.

I read over your story twice. I'm definitely seeing that the Work has helped you and you're in a better place now than you were before. I have a lot of questions, but just focusing on this one right now....When you say that you came to believe that your husband's behavior was right for him....is that something that you truly believe in your core, or is that an illustration of your perspective of the situation? (Which has changed from the time when you were more invested in being the victim, etc.) I guess what I'm trying to ask is, is there room for someone to do The Work and still, at the same time, admit that there are some behaviors that are objectively wrong? Even if we decide to detach ourselves from being self-righteous about it or whatever for our own good. Make sense?

I'm also surprised that there isn't a premise to the Work. So there's really just the 4 questions and the Turnaround, and then you just sort of follow the process to wherever it takes you?

[yaM yaM]

I think it is completely on-topic to have exploratory discussions about The Work on this thread and I'm happy to share what I know.

I do truly believe in my core that my partner's behavior was right for him -- how could it not be?  Just because it wasn't right for me doesn't make it any less-so for him as far as I believe.  And that does not mean that he will not change his mind or never behave any other way.  I believe that everything we all do is right for us in the moment that we're doing it.  Doesn't mean I agree with everything or condone it -- just means that.. 'to each their own' with regard to truth.  I believe that we all do what we do because we’re believing our thoughts.  My ex-husband behaved that way because he believed that it was effective for the purpose of his intentions.  We are always either questioning our thoughts or believing them (what else is there to do with them?) and that was how he lived out of his unquestioned thinking.  Really, his concepts are pretty universal; there are countless examples throughout history of people believing that aggression and violence are effective ways to get their needs met.

As far as there 'being room for' someone to do The Work and still believe there are some things that are objectively wrong, as you put it -- my thought on that is that it is also for each of us to decide for ourselves.  There is room for all of our truths in The Work because The Work doesn't have any truths.  Along those lines, The Work does not conflict with religious beliefs, either.  Yes, The Work is literally just the questions and Turnarounds.  ALL of the power of The Work lies in our answers to the questions -- our own truths, again.  And, yes, I do just follow the process wherever it takes me because that feels right to me.  I can see a lot of reasons in my life to keep doing The Work; the effects of my practice have been incredible.  I feel gratitude that is beyond words for what it’s done for me.  So, getting back to your question, you are of course free to believe something is objectively wrong and still do The Work.

On that note, I am reminded of something I’ve often heard Byron Katie say to people -- “If it’s working for you, keep it.”  She is referring to beliefs/concepts.  This means that thoughts that feel good and right to us simply do not need to be questioned.  If we find that we experience any sort of stress in response to our thoughts - that is when it’s time to do The Work.  So we have our own little internal alarm systems that let us know when something we’re believing is not working for us and the alarm's ring is *stress*.  If you believe that the concept of ‘objective wrongness’ works for you; if you feel that it is serving you, then that is your truth and there really is no need to question it.  If that thought were to one day cause you suffering, you can question it then.  We are always free to change our minds.  

With regard to things Byron Katie says when doing The Work with people, she is expressing her truths, too.  So the things she says in the videos and in her books -- they’re HER truths; things she has found to be true for her through her experience of The Work.  When she shares her experiences and her truths, I can see how some people might translate those into ‘premises' of The Work and such but questions cannot hold premises and The Work is simply and literally questions.  This is an example of what I was mentioning earlier about projections and how we confuse ourselves when we make assumptions.  One of the neat things Katie talks about is called ‘literal listening’.  It is where you practice hearing exactly what people say and (if you’re in the habit of it) work on noticing when you add filler information to what was said or completely translate it altogether.  When we listen literally, we are respecting the person talking.  I believe that it is arrogant to translate what someone says into anything other than what they say (imagine a foreign language interpreter changing someone’s communication into something other than what was said).  When we listen literally, we are freed up from the (very stressful) jobs of mind-reading, reading-into and guessing what the person ‘really’ meant.  I love listening literally to Katie talking.  That way, I hear what she’s saying as her experience and opinions -- not advice. If I trust her (or anyone), I can request their advice but then I am the one responsible for following it or not (responsible for the action that results from my choosing to follow their advice) -- I cannot say that anyone 'made' me do anything.  Even though I admire Katie immensely, I love that she teaches us to ultimately look to our own wisdom for answers -- we are the deciders in our lives -- effectively turning around the power that some of us can sometimes project onto her back to our own wonderful selves.  

I also want to mention something else good that came out of my experience with The Work in relation to my marriage:  unconditional love.  I found that my demands and expectations of my then-partner were really about conditions.  I was not living the truth I aspire to live of loving unconditionally. I even believed at one point that my conditions for loving him in this situation were exceptions (exemptions) to my principle of unconditional love because I rationalized that his behavior warranted that. I found that discovering my truths and living my turnarounds is what brought me to a place where I no longer wanted or needed him to be different than he was and I took care of my and my children's needs.  I can honestly say now that I have love for him without condition.  It is very freeing and I feel happier when I am kind to myself and others.  

[Kathy White]

For anyone reading this thread and interested in The Work and how it can address issues of parenting,  I'm a certified facilitator of The Work of Byron Katie and I offer a free month Teleconference for parents who want to use the four questions and turnarounds to look at any stressful parenting beliefs.

I just did a call tonight with a few parents and we all looked at the belief "My child should listen to my advice".  I can easily send anyone the recording if you register on my website (listed below).

What I love about The Work is that there is no-one but you to find your own answers... your  answers and  your truth.  In the plethora of parenting advice that is out there these days it is so refreshing to simply question a belief and see what then emerges as creative and playful solutions with your  children and your family.  Unique to you and perfect for you.  There is no better expert than you...  

I did a piece of work this morning to question my belief that "my children should get along with each other", as when I  experience that they don't, it is very stressful for me. I see that my stress occurs not because they are arguing, it is stressful because they are messing with a core belief of mine (picked up from my mother especially)  that brothers and sisters should get along. My behaviour is then that  I want them to stop fighting and feel I have to be the one to fix it.  I can read (and actually have read) all sorts of parenting books which address what to do with sibling rivalry.  Yet, for me nothing comes close to the peace that is in my heart as I gently stay open to my son and daughter, when I drop the thought and then look at them without  "my children should get along with each other" belief.

The Turnarounds "I should get along with my children" and "I should get along with myself" are far more true for me and there are many genuine examples I can find to support these turnarounds...and the funny one is "My children shouldn't get along with each other..."

and reasons why:

1. They plain and simple don't.  That's the fact.

2. They need to learn about conflict.

3.  So they can teach me to let them have their fights and not feel this need to step in and sort it out, micro-manage them all the time.

hope some of you join the calls and I'm open for  questions about The Work during the calls too

Kathy 

[yaM yaM]

Thanks for your post, Kathy, and for sharing your experience of The Work.