I'm an idiot.

[CorasMama]

So I talked to my step brother, D (the UU minister about to have a baby with his wife, G). They're at 40 weeks + 5days, and waiting somewhat impatiently for their little boy. I'm really excited to be an aunt!

So, I did something I really shouldn't have. I totally overstepped the bounds. Please don't flame me for this, because I feel bad enough about it as is. But I brought up my feelings about routine infant circumcision. :-( Bad idea. Because when he told me that they'd agonized about it and still decided to do it (G's mom is a pediatrician), I started actually crying. I couldn't help it. Because I knew that I'd totally overstepped, and also because they've chosen to perform, or rather have performed, unnecessary and unanaesthetized cosmetic surgery on this poor defenseless baby. He listed the standard reasons, being that he (my brother) is circ'd, something about disease transmission, and infections. He says that he's had 3 or 4 friends have to be circ'd as adults due to recurrent infections. I have to wonder, were these guys repeatedly retracted prematurely, and/or were they just not taught how to properly care for their penises?

Apparently, G's mom provided them with all the AAP's guidelines and information, and that helped them make this decision. I thought that the AAP wasn't recommending RIC anymore. He said that there's some study showing that in families where all the men have been circ'd, an intact boy is more likely to have "complications", because he has noone to teach him proper care and cleaning. I didn't realize that that wasn't something adults could read and learn about! And he said there are many new studies in favor of RIC, for health reasons. WTH? But frankly, he didn't sound like he feels good about the decision. Like he knows deep down it's wrong, but thinks that he has to. He is a very educated and thinking man, and it sounds like they did a whole lot of (mainstream) research and put a lot of thought into it (agonized over it, in his words.)

I'm so upset, not only at what I found out is going to happen, but at myself. It wasn't my place to bring that up, and I shouldn't have done it. It did no good, and it probably harmed my relationship with my brother. I'm not going to bring it up again, but I wish I could unring that bell, ykwim?

[guest9921]

Originally Posted by CorasMama

I'm so upset, not only at what I found out is going to happen, but at myself. It wasn't my place to bring that up, and I shouldn't have done it. It did no good, and it probably harmed my relationship with my brother. I'm not going to bring it up again, but I wish I could unring that bell, ykwim?

You're not an idiot, and it was your place.
Its mutilation, and you did what you could to stop it from happening to your nephew.

I applaud you.

[alegna]

you're not an idiot at all.

I could not remain friendly with someone who chose to do that for no good reason.

-Angela

[Papai]

He says that he's had 3 or 4 friends have to be circ'd as adults due to recurrent infections.

I'm really starting to doubt all these people who say they have 3 or 4 friends who had recurrent infections. :

But anyway, I don't think you should feel bad. You have a stance on the issue and your stepbrother has another. You had a discussion about it and that's that. I don't think it ruined you all's relationship, or at least it shouldn't.

[twin monkeys]

you did not overstep your bounds by any means. You are looking out for your nephews best intrest and were only working on protecting someone who can't protect themselves don't beat yourself up you did a great thing

[carriebft]

Originally Posted by Papai

I'm really starting to doubt all these people who say they have 3 or 4 friends who had recurrent infections. :

I never believe it when I hear things like that anymore. NO more! I have gone out to the march and just recently spent a weekend doing inactivism at a convention and I met many intact men and boys and none of them had problems like this.

Next time someone throws one at me like this, I am asking for names and email addresses so that I can converse with these hypothetical people. I'll make sure to have a list of people willing to talk about their good experiences in exchange!

[SMC_to_be]

Ummm...what exactly did you do wrong??

Good for you for having the courage to bring it up. And tears...so? He's your nephew. Once you know what RIC is all about, it's hard not to get emotional at times. Maybe your reaction will give your step brother pause about his decision.

[TigerTail]

Huh?

Why would you say that? It's not you being 'out-of-bounds'. Out of bounds is cutting off someone else's genitals.

[QueenOfThePride]

I think you did well to be concerned about your nephew. I'm proud of you for crying when he told you they would circ the baby. The reason circumcision continues is because there isn't enough of an outcry from society against it. There aren't enough people making pro-circ parents feel bad about it. Most people (including me) are outwardly neutral to circ'ing parents, but disgusted on the inside. Even if you can't change his mind, maybe you crying made him at least feel guilty about wanting circ. Serves him right, he should feel bad about it.

[Daisyuk]

I don't believe the 3 or 4 friends having to be circ'd as adults either. There simply aren't that many intact adults around for all these people to know so many.

Your brother is just trying to justify what happened to him, and he's making a BIG mistake.

Let your nephew know what his parents did to him in the full knowledge that it is outdated and harmful start a trust fund for him so he can sue both his parents and the doctor that does it. He doesn't need surgery, it's unethical, and it's wrong.

Ask him exactly WHY he thinks that Americans keep getting recurrent infections when the rest of the world gets on just fine with their intact penises.

[glongley]

I know this is a tough eleventh hour situation, but as long as that kid still has a foreskin, there's still time to educate. I know your step brother thinks he's doing the best thing for his son (what with all the medical benefits and such!, but there are some other perspectives you still might try to get across to him.

If all he looks at is potential medical benefits, he'll find plenty touted out there. But that's not the point. The question is, do the possible benefits clearly outweigh the risks and harms of circumcision done in hopes of obtaining them? And is circumcision the only reasonable way to obtain those benefits? And are those hoped for benefits essential for the child's well-being?

The answer to all three of these in the case of infant circumcision is clearly NO. And that is exactly why no medical organization recommends it as a routine procedure for all boys. There ARE risks and harms to circumcision (even when it's not labeled a "botch"); there are lots of other ways to stay healthy without preemptive surgical intervention (like simple hygiene and education about behavioral risk factors); and the great majority of intact men live happy, healthy lives, and few of the touted benefits apply to babies - so obviously circumcision is not essential to the baby's well-being.

How about an anatomy and physiology angle? Has your step brother carefully researched anything about the function of the foreskin? How about an ethical angle (I bet a UU minister would be open to considering ethics)? Has he considered whether his son may well prefer to have a choice about how much of his penis he gets to keep?

Just the fact that they have "agonized" about this (as well they should, if they are going to seriously consider circumcising at all!), lets you know that there are some opposing concerns floating around in their heads. I know it may be tough, but if you can send him an email with one last informative appeal, there's still hope. If you don't, I'm pretty sure no one else will stand in their way.

With sympathy and hope, Gillian

[laohaire]

Yeah, on one hand there are so few intact men that the poor intact boy would grow up all alone, with everyone teasing him and no women who would even know what to do with it.

And on the other hand, there are millions and billions of intact men who suffer untold infections and disease.

OTOH I must admit the only guy I know to be intact got circumcised as an adult. I don't know why (I knew him as a teenager and we drifted away after that) but I doubt it was an infection. I think the only complaint he had was that he had problems using condoms (no friction) - and if he went under the knife for that, that's too bad IMHO.

[Yulia_R]

It was absolutely your place! BUT IT WASN'T NEARLY STRONG ENOUGHT, IMO. If it were my brother I'd dead SERIOUSLY said that he's going to mutilate/rape/rip off this perfect little boy over my DEAD BODY until he knows all the facts about circ, watches video, etc. I'd tell him that his mom is just a person and therefore, she can be misinformed just like all of us. I'd say that he owes it to his child! And if he does mutilate him I'd make sure his child knows the truth when he's older (and that he knows that you were trying to stop it and make his father to actually research instead of listening to his mom, but he was too lazy!) I swear that this is what I'd say...word to word! Someone has to protect this little boy, and if not his parents, then aunt is good enough .
yulia.

[carriebft]

Yeah, on one hand there are so few intact men that the poor intact boy would grow up all alone, with everyone teasing him and no women who would even know what to do with it.

What? there isn't much to do with the foreskin. It's not like a woman needs to manipulate it to get the penis to work. *scratches head*

And on the other hand, there are millions and billions of intact men who suffer untold infections and disease.

Proof?


Or were you being facetious with that post? im a little slow today.

[Yulia_R]

where are those millions and billions?!

Where are millions and billions of intact men who suffer untold infections and disease?! : : :
I'm from russia where circ is unheard of. I had friends, boyfriends, ex-husband, brother, father, etc. etc. etc. Almost all my friends have sons and of course everybody was/is intact. First time I have heard about men having problems with yeast and UTI was when I came to the US at the age of 26! Before that I have always thought that men were lucky that they don't have to deal with this crap as in russia it's considered to be problems that women have to deal with! Most of the world isn't circ!
yulia.

[Daisyuk]

Originally Posted by carriebft

What? there isn't much to do with the foreskin. It's not like a woman needs to manipulate it to get the penis to work. *scratches head*



Proof?


Or were you being facetious with that post? im a little slow today.

Yes, I think you missed the sarcasm tags on that one

[TigerTail]

i'm pretty sure laohaire was making a point.

[carriebft]

^_^ I had a feeling it had to be sarcasm from a senior member. Sorry I missed it!

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

If my younger brother ever has a boy you better believe I will be talking to him more about circ. I feel it is even more my place to let him know the horror that circ is since he is family. To me not saying something would be like knowing they planned to beat the kid daily and not say or do anything about it.

[Jillie]

You did ok. HOpefully he will take your reaction and think harder about the decision to injure his little baby boy. I'm sorry if he goes through with it. Be sure and show your displeasure if that is the case too.