unschooling-- how structured or unstructured? - Page 2

[1growingsprout]

For us UNSCHOOLING is allowing and providing opportunities for the kids... we do lots of field trips and artsy type stuff...we are also always at the library... our home is overloaded with toys and options but unschooling is a journey and with so many little ones, we may skip a child or 2 before the same passion comes along again.

right now my 6 yr old is making a nascar race track complete with the pits and souviner stands... my 4 yr old is helping DH with dinner BBQ and Amy is playing with musical toys...

Later tonight the older 2 will work on a craft or project... we are just starting those 1000 pc puzzles and they are great for family time. I try to limit TV time but we have 100's of DVD's and most of them are educational in some sense... magic school bus, leapfrog series, scholastic books on dvd etc...

Unschooling is also about learning how to balance your hobbies and passions with real life and hoping to find a career that fits with your passion... for example DS 1 loves cars and anything like that... he is also good at math and has mastered multiuplication. I can see him working for an auto maker in some aspect, whether it be sales, design, assembly etc...

By its nature unschooling is very non-traditonal school like. We dont have 'school time' or table time, we dont require lesson plans and daily work to be turned in. yes DS struggles with handwriting but is making him sit for an hr day and practicing writing really the arguement DH and I want to face daily? no...

Thats us in a nutshell..

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by mama in the forest

It is often a struggle for me mentally. In many ways I want to be that mom that I was when I had only one child...but with a larger family I'm finding I do have to guide them & maybe there are times I require things of them.

I only have three kids (and a dog, and a dh) and your post rang true for me. My three kids, dog, and dh whirl through the house like a force of nature, and I simply can't do it all myself. It would be really nice if my kids thought about home care the way I do, but they don't (and really, at their ages I can't expect them to), so in order for our home to resemble a home and not a destruction site, I do have to insist that the kids take responsibility for some things.

dm

[illinoismommy]

I can see there are several schools of thought-- but everyone agrees on not forcing schoolwork. What about if your child gladly does schoolwork? What if you are on a long car ride and say "hey want to read Harry Potter with me?" (or some other book) and they say yeah. Is that not unschooling? If it doesn't have assignments, and yet you within discussion and life do naturally teach them things, is that unschooling to you? Like teaching them to cook-- they didn't ASK you to learn to cook but you were cooking, they were there, so you automatically employed their help without resistance?

[Dar]

Originally Posted by illinoismommy

I can see there are several schools of thought-- but everyone agrees on not forcing schoolwork. What about if your child gladly does schoolwork?

I don't see how an unschooler could ever do "schoolwork" because he's not "schooling". Reading Harry Potter is reading Harry Potter - it's just something we sometimes choose to do, like making a sandwich or planting a rose bush.

Teaching happens sometimes, but most learning happens without teaching, IME.

Dar

[illinoismommy]

you could really say that about many homeschooling methods -- you are not really "schooling" .... you don't need a curriculum to pass on knowledge deliberately... I am asking if you think that passing on knowledge deliberately is unschooling or not. My examples were bad.

[SagMom]

Originally Posted by illinoismommy

What about if your child gladly does schoolwork?

How are you defining "schoolwork?" My kids don't have schoolwork, although they sometimes learn about things that kids in school study.

If it doesn't have assignments, and yet you within discussion and life do naturally teach them things, is that unschooling to you?

To me, unschooling isn't an issue of teaching/not teaching. It's about control. My kids are in control of what they learn. They may ask me to show them how to do something, I might offer to teach them something, but they have complete control over it. I wouldn't decide that they need to learn _____ and then set about finding a way to teach it to them.

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by illinoismommy

I am asking if you think that passing on knowledge deliberately is unschooling or not.

Yes, it is, because it just happens naturally when people live together. If I think my kids need to learn to cook, I teach them to cook. I don't force them to cook with me, but I do cook with them when they want to. If I think my kids need to learn about bicycle safety, we discuss it while we are having a nice bike ride. I don't sit them down and make them discuss it against their will. But I do have an agenda for my kids. There are some things that I think they NEED to learn (generally, in my case, these are values that I wish to pass on or life skills rather than school subjects) and I arrange for ways to pass these things on. I don't force my kids to do it, but I do look for or even create times when it happens naturally. (Yes, I know someone might say that if I am creating the time it is not happening naturally, but what I mean is, if talking about bicycle safety seems like a logical extension of riding bikes, then I take advantage of that. I doubt my kids will bring up learning bicycle safety on their own, but neither do they run screaming in the opposite direction when I point out that it's dangerous to ride into an intersection without looking. I am teaching. They are learning. No schooling is taking place.)

dm

[cottonwood]

That's neat thanks for sharing but of course I have the classic question-- it is obvious that the basics of what one needs day to day will be addressed, and some of their interests, but what happens if at 17 they decide they want to do something that they are not qualified for, like major in physics when they haven't properly mastered algebra, something like that?

What if they want to major in Chinese when they've never had a day of language instruction? I think this fear is based in the idea that there are certain things that are likely enough and important enough that we ought to prepare for them in the event that we want to do them, so that there will be no "wasted time". But this is nonsense. What if the child never has any interest in doing anything for which they would need advanced math or science? Would not that time have been wasted to spend on those things, then? If not, why? Because advanced math and science are goods in themselves, and inherently more valuable than other things, even if they're never used for anything? Personally, I don't buy that. I don't regard algebra as inherently more valuable than, say, weaving. Why not then prepare for a career of, say, weaving or politics or oceanography before the child ever expresses interest in the event that they might do those things one day? But doesn't that sound a bit silly?

A person for whom a career in physics is truly appropriate isn't just going to out of the blue want to become a physicist -- they will have all along been feeling and expressing interest and aptitude in related things. If your child has absolutely no interest in math or science, why on earth would you be concerned about preparing them for possibly one day entered a related field? If they were the type of personality that would eventually be perfect for that field, wouldn't you expect to see evidence of it early on? Leanings? Wouldn't that type of child want to learn advance math of their own initiative, be drawn to it?

[cottonwood]

We all impart information to others and receive information from others. It's the method by which we do so that makes it "school" or "not school". If I send my friend an article I find interesting or think she might find helpful, am I teaching her or am I sharing information? Whatever it is, it looks very different from me promoting "schoolwork". There is a completely different dynamic that ensues from each approach, that affects how the giver and receiver view each other and their own capabilities and feelings about how learning happens.

[mama in the forest]

I don't regard algebra as inherently more valuable than, say, weaving. Why not then prepare for a career of, say, weaving or politics or oceanography before the child ever expresses interest in the event that they might do those things one day? But doesn't that sound a bit silly?

This is so true for us too. It was very interesting to me to watch my oldest child go through the college process. When she was deciding what she really wanted to DO in college, she had to face whether or not she was going to be willing to learn some more math or not. The great thing was that she KNEW she could learn it if she chose. Even though she doesn't like math or have much experience with it, she knows that all things are learnable & there's nothing outside of her reach. She ultimately decided to take a path that doesn't include much math, but I loved seeing the process she took in figuring that out.

Now that I have a grown child, it's easy for me to see how fantastic the unschooling process is. I see so clearly how anything forced is the waste of time.

[rmzbm]

We don't do anything. We learn through living. It works. If my kids went to their "appropriate" grades in school I have NO DOUBT they'd be well ahead of their peers. They do have a ton of workbooks though, as they enjoy them & ask for them. They keep them with the coloring books & do them when coloring & such. Just something they enjoy & sometimes I work in them with them...but only when they wanna.

[Callimom]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

What if they want to major in Chinese when they've never had a day of language instruction? I think this fear is based in the idea that there are certain things that are likely enough and important enough that we ought to prepare for them in the event that we want to do them, so that there will be no "wasted time". But this is nonsense. What if the child never has any interest in doing anything for which they would need advanced math or science? Would not that time have been wasted to spend on those things, then? If not, why? Because advanced math and science are goods in themselves, and inherently more valuable than other things, even if they're never used for anything? Personally, I don't buy that. I don't regard algebra as inherently more valuable than, say, weaving. Why not then prepare for a career of, say, weaving or politics or oceanography before the child ever expresses interest in the event that they might do those things one day? But doesn't that sound a bit silly?

I disagree with your premise but maybe this is where I part company with the unschooling philosophy.

I think that there are certain skills or bodies of knowledge that are more valuable because they allow you to understand the world around you and participate in it in a meaningful way. I would count history, science, math and arts among the content areas and math and languages among the skill areas that I would consider inherently more valuable to be acquainted with than weaving (using your example). They aren't mutually exclusive of course, and I'm not saying that much of this exposure can't or won't happen naturally given a parent who is mindful of creating a rich environment for their kids. However to ignore them or give them only cursory investigations because the child at 6 or 10 or even 16 hasn't shown an interest in them is shortsighted in my opinion. There are lots of ways to fan the flames of curiousity that will lead kids to being introduced to these concepts.

I would feel I had failed in providing for my child's education if I had not exposed them to the ideas, concepts and skills that would allow them participate fully in whatever path they choose. If I don't offer a life and a world where they can be exposed to these concepts and skills, how will they know what is available to them.

[UUMom]

For me, this is a difficult conversation in which to participate. We are very relaxed here--we play and walk on the beach, we catch frogs in our pond, we keep nature journals, they climb trees, they spend hours playing in the barn, they build things with tree branches, they have been free to explore. Their interests and ideas have been totally supported. I've been blown away by my children's natural eagerness to explore. They have introduced me to many things I would not have thought of! They are engaged, free , and excited about the world. They have rich inner lives. It's been a privilege and a joy to watch them unfold.

We've also 'done' science, and read history; we've gone to museums to learn about specific things I've suggested, and gotten books and videos about those topics. A long time ago, I introduced historical fiction to them in a chrono way (Which is never to say we don't jump all around with their intersts, and we have taken a year to ingest one particular era that was totally engaging). I've introduced them to things they might not have known exisited if I hadn't mentioned it. I do look to outside resources to find good fiction, to find interesting projects that we haven't thought of. It seems there is plenty of time to both find things on our own, and to ultilize resources others have discovered.

They days are long and there are many books to read, many things to learn that are worth learning. I do value understanding history, for instance, so I have presented information to my children in a fashion that I think makes sense. Of course, that is never at the expense of my children's agenda. Nothing is forced, yet I would be lying if I said I didn't want them to have a basic understanding of world events and how they have unfolded. I want them to have a basic framework of the building blocks of biology, as another example.

I know people can grow and thrive without knowing any of these things. I don't think understanding basic biology is more 'important' than drawing Neopets. I totally respect the treehouse built by a child, and I totally respect the excellent care our Neopets recieve. I can care about those things, I can respect those interests at the same time I can read my children interesting historical fiction in chrono order. I can whip out the anatomy books, or ask if anyone wants to break open some scat.

This is one reason I say don't say we are 'unschoolers'. I realize I have a parental 'agenda' if you will.

The conversation is diffuclt for me because it seems controlling to write that I introduce certain things to my children in a certain mindset (chrono order, asking about scat if they haven't brought it up etc). This to me is different from the unschooler who lets the days and weeks unfold with no thoughts of wanting to read The Witch of Blackbird Pond before a Halloween visit to Salem, MA, or watch Shakespeare in Love because you are thinking you would like to read Romeo and Juliet with your 15 yr old, who hasn't much shown an interest in that yet. You're thinking Gwyneth Platrow and Joseph Fiennes might spark an interest.

It's not that I value Romeo and Juliet over another love story, but I do think it's it's a great story full of lots of human insight. I also know my child already has a basic understanding of the time in which Shakespeare wrote, because we read Year of Wonders: A Novel of the Plague (which actually takes place many years after S, but given the plagues swept through Europe for such a long period of time, it works) together not so long ago. (Is it 'important' or 'valuable' in life to know of this historical event? Maybe yes, maybe no. Does it make us 'better' people? Absolutely not. Is it interesting to know? We think so).

And what would it matter if someone thought I was controlling when I don't see it that way? I suppose nothing, but still, who wants to be thought of as a control freak, especially when the children are happy and thriving and are taken serisouly and are deeply respected for the thoughtful, whole individuals they are.

[hsmamato2]

Originally Posted by UUMom

For me, this is a difficult conversation in which to participate. We are very relaxed here--They are engaged, free , and excited about the world. They have rich inner lives. It's been a privilege and a joy to watch them unfold.

This is one reason I say don't say we are 'unschoolers'. I realize I have a parental 'agenda' if you will.
And what would it matter if someone thought I was controlling when I don't see it that way? I suppose nothing, but still, who wants to be thought of as a control freak, especially when the children are happy and thriving and are taken serisouly and are deeply respected for the thoughtful, whole individuals they are.

I'm with you UUMOM.... I do consider us unschoolers,I guess b/c i watched my mother unschool my sister before it became fashionable to debate the semantics of being an unschooler vs a relaxed homeschooler
For our family,it has always been about learning,some new things, sometimes with a family member or friend taking us to new places of interest we'd never thought of oursleves,and it goes both ways- I bring all kinds of things I feel are interesting/worthwhile and exciting to my family,and my kids do the same thing- we've learned more from them than I can even begin to tell,and i would hope they've done the same through just being with us, adults and relatives,friends and others,people who can teach,and be taught....
Why, to say I have no parental agenda would mean I've lived their entire lives with duct tape across my mouth, keeping the shades drawn,and making sure that their inspirations came from only within themselves,never influenced by myself,dh,or,god forbid,any other adult types...
Unschooling is just living- we talk,we listen,we give,we take, we get pushy,sometimes we get pushed(by new ideas)
It's so funny, I never once considered whether or not we 'fit' into the 'true unschoolers' mold, we just have always been who we are.....
in the last month,I've arranged for numerous field trips...some I wanted to do,some I just thought the kids might like,and some i asked them if they wanted to do.... I arrange,b/c I like to,the kids can just as easily plan something,and I'll help them in any way they need me to to make it happen- they don't have to love every little thing we do,sometimes it's a big hit,other times it's a 'eh,let's not do that again"....

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by hsmamato2

I'm with you UUMOM.... I do consider us unschoolers,I guess b/c i watched my mother unschool my sister before it became fashionable to debate the semantics of being an unschooler vs a relaxed homeschooler
For our family,it has always been about learning,some new things, sometimes with a family member or friend taking us to new places of interest we'd never thought of oursleves,and it goes both ways- I bring all kinds of things I feel are interesting/worthwhile and exciting to my family,and my kids do the same thing- we've learned more from them than I can even begin to tell,and i would hope they've done the same through just being with us, adults and relatives,friends and others,people who can teach,and be taught....
Why, to say I have no parental agenda would mean I've lived their entire lives with duct tape across my mouth, keeping the shades drawn,and making sure that their inspirations came from only within themselves,never influenced by myself,dh,or,god forbid,any other adult types...
Unschooling is just living- we talk,we listen,we give,we take, we get pushy,sometimes we get pushed(by new ideas)
It's so funny, I never once considered whether or not we 'fit' into the 'true unschoolers' mold, we just have always been who we are.....
in the last month,I've arranged for numerous field trips...some I wanted to do,some I just thought the kids might like,and some i asked them if they wanted to do.... I arrange,b/c I like to,the kids can just as easily plan something,and I'll help them in any way they need me to to make it happen- they don't have to love every little thing we do,sometimes it's a big hit,other times it's a 'eh,let's not do that again"....

This is such a nice post. I love to hear from people who have walked this path.

I have always wanted my children to experience the world in their own way, and sometimes my mamabear sat on her hands as the miralces did unfold. (And I do yoga, and have for a long time --I try to 'let go'-- and still, 'letting go' is just not the easiest thing ever).

I respect that others 'get it', and I do think I am too attached to them having all that I think I can convey to them. (And I realize that few people could convey everything! lol) I respect my children, and I trust them.

I am here to help, but not to determine. I get that. There are many people 'out there' who seem to be doing it 'the right way', and yet 'the way' is going to be different for each personality, for each child. It's a skittery path (meeting needs in a meaningful way) and we parents have to be open to those swerves we do not anticipate. If there were a 'right path', I figure that someone long before me would have written about it somewhere. (Heck, Shakespeare was a parent--where is his input on this?? lol) It's clear (to me) that each generation tries to figure out the best way, and noty a single generation before us has figured it all out.

I have always been open to my childrens' varied and individual needs. I try to convey that by my repsect and support.

I very much appreciate your words. Thanks!

[SagMom]

Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds

A person for whom a career in physics is truly appropriate isn't just going to out of the blue want to become a physicist -- they will have all along been feeling and expressing interest and aptitude in related things.

: (My way of saying this was way more long-winded. Thanks for putting it so clearly!)

I don't regard algebra as inherently more valuable than, say, weaving.

Me either. But I have to add that, ime, it's rarely "just" weaving. When my kids get interested in something, it usually leads all over the place. For instance, ds1 is into archery. But he doesn't just shoot arrows at a target and that's that... He's researched different types of bows, different materials they're made of, he's learned about draw weight and velocity and drag--he's watched a variety of movies and read MANY books that in some way are connected to archers or medieval times. He's designed arrows and learned how to build them...the list goes on.

Sure, sometimes they have passing interests, but often their interests lead to many different things.

We heard Ren Allen speak at a conference last year and her talk was titled something to the effect of "Chocolate Leads To Everything In The Whole Wide World." My kids were about jumping out of their seats because they recognized their own lives, so I know it's not just our family this happens to.

[hsmamato2]

nice to find like minded souls....

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by hsmamato2

nice to find like minded souls....

It is nice.

It's not as if we are the first ones in the history of the world who are trying to help their kids learn/reject/change/ negotiate the world. I take great comfort in knowing so many others-- millions or thousands of others-- have come before me.

[mama in the forest]

For our family,it has always been about learning,some new things, sometimes with a family member or friend taking us to new places of interest we'd never thought of oursleves,and it goes both ways- I bring all kinds of things I feel are interesting/worthwhile and exciting to my family,and my kids do the same thing- we've learned more from them than I can even begin to tell,and i would hope they've done the same through just being with us, adults and relatives,friends and others,people who can teach,and be taught....

Don't most all unschoolers feel this way? Homeschoolers too?

Why, to say I have no parental agenda would mean I've lived their entire lives with duct tape across my mouth, keeping the shades drawn,and making sure that their inspirations came from only within themselves,never influenced by myself,dh,or,god forbid,any other adult types...

Do you feel that there are unschoolers out there who believe that they should not parent? I guess in my little world out here in the country I just don't know any other unschoolers, but I've heard this criticism of unschoolers before and I guess I don't understand it.

[Dar]

I think a parental agenda of "I want my child to find all the many things in life that bring her joy" is different from a parental agenda of "I want my child to find a way to a basic understanding of world history and mathematics through geometry".

I definitely have the former agenda, but not the latter...

dar