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11 year old son and hardcore pornography - Page 4

post #61 of 172
Thread Starter 
I'm feeling a bit raw, so bear with me here.

I had no idea that my parents could get in trouble for "supplying porn" to my son. They would never do that.

As for making someone apologize? It's punitive, it's horifically embarassing, and it's degrading. To apologize to both grandparents (grandmother included) is just awful, IMO. To apologize to his grandfather, alone, to whom the computers belonged, would be enough.

Thank you again to those who have provided me with concrete information. I appreciate it.
post #62 of 172
If my son did that he would be appologizing to BOTH (It IS his grandmothers house also, and he completley disrespected your parents trust.). And would be going through other forms of punishment. Pornography will not be tolerated in my house.
post #63 of 172
GWH - just wanted to say that I think you have handled this very well. My oldest is not even 6yo yet, but I assume this is in the future. I hope I am as respectful and sensitive as you have been.

I am pretty horrified at the suggestions that he apologize to his grandparents. If you think hardcore porn might traumatize him, imagine having to talk to your grandparents about hardcore porn!

We don't force apologies in general, but even if we did, this would be a situation where I would probably make an exception. He's 11, he's entering a new world, he's probably confused and not sure of what is okay or not. He's not some evil child out to hurt his grandparents. It just happened to be their computer that was available.
post #64 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovemy3babies View Post
If my son did that he would be appologizing to BOTH (It IS his grandmothers house also, and he completley disrespected your parents trust.). And would be going through other forms of punishment. Pornography will not be tolerated in my house.
I am guessing from the age of your children, you have not dealt with this particular issue at this time.

I would like to offer my experience. Admitting the addiction is the hardest part, I wouldn't even dream of forcing my child to apologize to anyone for it. My oldest was 10 when he discovered online porn. It was another year before (and four/five incidents of repeatedly viewing over that time) he was able to even admit freely that he was the one viewing the stuff. He is now 11.5 (12 next month) and just in the last six months come to realize just how difficult it is to stay away from porn.

We tried punishment. It just serves to hide it temporarily. We removed computer privileges and put them on lockdown when he was on. He would do well for a couple of months and then relapse. It would start out accidently almost b/c he would click an ad on a site that was for his age group and then it would go from there. He would go undiscovered for a couple of days and then we would talk to him about it. Punishments are not going to accomplish anything. We realized that he will eventually not be with us 24/7 and he needs to learn to censor himself which is really hard to do.

We are six months into no porn and he has even come to me a few times saying hard it is not to go to these sites. He requested more stringent blockers to help him stay clear. He has had to learn to co-exist with the computer and not access these sites. There was no punishment that could make that happen. It had to come from him and his desire to not view the porn.

Pornography is not tolerated in our house either, but you need to realize that communication, not punishment, is the key to helping your child. They can't fix a problem if they aren't given the tools to do so. By punishment, you aren't teaching a solution, you are putting a band-aid on a what could become a very serious problem later.
post #65 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini View Post

Pornography is not tolerated in our house either, but you need to realize that communication, not punishment, is the key to helping your child. They can't fix a problem if they aren't given the tools to do so. By punishment, you aren't teaching a solution, you are putting a band-aid on a what could become a very serious problem later.
I understand where you are coming from. The actual problem will more then likely be solved by communication, getting to the root of the problem. But my children WILL respect adults, or anyone in authority. If they do not, they will appologize for it. Even if they dont mean it, its good manners.

He could have gotten his grandparents into some trouble with what he was viewing. He should at LEAST have to appologize, not that it fixes the problem, but its out of respect.
post #66 of 172
My DH actually still struggles with online porn, starting from when he was a young teen, so I have touchy fears about how I will handle it with DS (not that it will come up anytime soon, he's still pretty young!)

He was spending our money on live porn chat, which is where I had my really big fit. I know all men love pictures. And, hey, women look good, right? I like attractive women too. But it was keeping him late at work, and it was taking money away from MY family, and it was too much. I WIsh it was Maxim. At least Maxim has amusing articles.

Point being -- I know DH's parents were very don't ask-don't tell about many things in his youth - porn being one of them - that stuck around to make his late teen years and even his life now much more difficult and risky than it needed to be. I wish sometimes that they would have been just a little more strict.

I think you handled your situation really well! It sounds like your son is comfortable talking to you, and that's huge. But just keep talking, you know? Don't just stop noticing what's happening in your house (like my ILs).
post #67 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovemy3babies View Post
But my children WILL respect adults, or anyone in authority. If they do not, they will appologize for it. Even if they dont mean it, its good manners.
I don't want to totally sidetrack this thread, but I actually have a physical reaction to hearing parents say this - all the hairs on my arms stand up and my stomach does a little flip. I am all for good manners and politeness and respect, but I could not disagree more with this statement.

While I don't believe you can demand respect even if you wanted to, I most certainly DO NOT want my kids to automatically respect anyone in "authority." I can't imagine a more dangerous lesson to teach them.

False apologies do not equal respect. And forcing shame and humiliation onto a child is not respectful, nor is it good manners.
post #68 of 172
i have a baby asleep on me, and of course i don't have pre-teens yet, but wanted to mention that i saw a great kama sutra book at borders recently with full color photos. the people were normal-ish (a little thin, but normal), and if i remember correctly, multi-racial. i think something like that, plus the joy of sex and some nice feminist literature like cunt laying around might be perfectly acceptable and not scary for everyone.there's gotta be some great sex-positive stuff out there, right? i know i had a "naked ladies" coloring book, which was pretty fun. what do you think of that? my inclination towards this is b/c it seems like this is likely going to come up agaain and maybe it's better to circumvent it with proactive materials that present a healthier outlook on sex, yk?

hey, and i found this website, which seems to be the only sex-positive sex education site for pre-teens, teens, and young adults - probably worth checking out: http://www.scarleteen.com/
post #69 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovemy3babies View Post
I understand where you are coming from. The actual problem will more then likely be solved by communication, getting to the root of the problem. But my children WILL respect adults, or anyone in authority. If they do not, they will appologize for it. Even if they dont mean it, its good manners.

He could have gotten his grandparents into some trouble with what he was viewing. He should at LEAST have to appologize, not that it fixes the problem, but its out of respect.
I understand the respect issue. Do you really think that a young boy, who is embarrassed about what he has done, is going to feel at all comfortable admitting to his grandparents what he has done and then apologize for it. I think forcing an apology does nothing but foster resentment. There is very little good that comes from forcing someone to apologize, good manners or not. It's a matter of being respectful to your child as much as it a matter of him being respectful to adults. Why would he give respect if he afforded none? It's easy to fake something, force something, or make something happen for the sake of manners, but in the end it doesn't benefit anyone involved.

I get that the grandparents could have gotten into trouble, but the forced apology really isn't a solution. Maybe, after time has passed, he can come to the decision to apologize on his own. It took my son a year to be able to admit to me freely that the porn was something he had viewed. We have never forced him to apologize for it, he did that on his own a year later. It has helped in his process of dealing with his addiction, to apologize to us. In the end, you can't force a person to give up an addiction. They have to come to that decision on their own and realize the harm that could come from the addiction. Forcing an apology, punishing, and embarassing a child into front of loved ones is not going to help in the process. It's going to teach the child to get better about hiding it.

An 11/12 year is quite capable of learning the to cover their tracks or delete inappropriate sites. On one occassion, my son was asked for his password/username for a pokemon site he frequented. I wanted to check his messages for the message board where he traded pokemon with others. He was on my laptop deleting messages as I was on my main computer checking them. He was afraid he would get into trouble for the inappropriateness of some of them. That was his reaction and he had never been openingly shamed or forced to apologize for anything he had ever done on that site. The only thing we had done when he posted things that were not appropriate was to eliminate his access to the site for a set period of time. He was embarassed that I would read and he was afraid to disappoint me. In the end, he did decided that restriction of his access to the message board was a good idea while he learned to censor himself. That was over a year ago and he has since regained his privilege, but he rarely goes on the site b/c he doesn't want to tempt himself (his words).
post #70 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceanbaby View Post
I don't want to totally sidetrack this thread, but I actually have a physical reaction to hearing parents say this - all the hairs on my arms stand up and my stomach does a little flip. I am all for good manners and politeness and respect, but I could not disagree more with this statement.

While I don't believe you can demand respect even if you wanted to, I most certainly DO NOT want my kids to automatically respect anyone in "authority." I can't imagine a more dangerous lesson to teach them.

False apologies do not equal respect. And forcing shame and humiliation onto a child is not respectful, nor is it good manners.
post #71 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
he needs to learn to censor himself which is really hard to do.

<snip>

He requested more stringent blockers to help him stay clear.
How is the use of blockers teaching him to self-censor?

As for apologies... I have a 15yo, so yes, we've been through this. He knows I monitor his online activities, and he's cool with that - mostly because I don't freak out at what I find. We talk about which sites are appropriate and which aren't. As well as under what circumstances. Some sites are okay for him to access at home, but I strongly recommend he not access them at school, his Dad's, grandma's, etc., and why. Part of the why is that it's disrespectful (in this particular situation because it would be offensive to his grandparents, open them up to potential legal problems, and potentially cause their computer(s) harm). And when he disrespects others (especially those who warrant respect - like our family members), he will be expected to apologize. The (few) times he's had to, he's understood what he's done and why it was wrong, and the apology was heartfelt. He knows it's going to be hard to do, but that I'll be with him, and he gets it done.

I don't understand why it's okay to embarrass your parents, but the child needs to be coddled and protected from feeling any shame or remorse for his/her behavior. Sorry.
post #72 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtiger View Post
How is the use of blockers teaching him to self-censor?
He used those at times when he felt he couldn't censor himself. We put them in place for awhile, then removed them. It went in waves for awhile. The blockers haven't been there for several months now. He needed those until he was more confident in his ability to censor himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtiger
As for apologies... I have a 15yo, so yes, we've been through this. He knows I monitor his online activities, and he's cool with that - mostly because I don't freak out at what I find. We talk about which sites are appropriate and which aren't. As well as under what circumstances. Some sites are okay for him to access at home, but I strongly recommend he not access them at school, his Dad's, grandma's, etc., and why. Part of the why is that it's disrespectful (in this particular situation because it would be offensive to his grandparents, open them up to potential legal problems, and potentially cause their computer(s) harm). And when he disrespects others (especially those who warrant respect - like our family members), he will be expected to apologize. The (few) times he's had to, he's understood what he's done and why it was wrong, and the apology was heartfelt. He knows it's going to be hard to do, but that I'll be with him, and he gets it done.

I don't understand why it's okay to embarrass your parents, but the child needs to be coddled and protected from feeling any shame or remorse for his/her behavior. Sorry.
It isn't a matter of coddling, it's a matter of forced apologies for the sake of manners are rarely heartfelt. The apologies from my son were heartfelt b/c he made the decision on his own when he was ready to apologize.

Forcing someone to apologize is not an apology, it's lip service.

My son felt plenty of shame and remorse without me adding to it and he was far from coddled. We chose our course of action b/c it was the right action for us. I saw no need to further his feelings of shame/guilt/remorse, he was already feeling those things. He owned up to the issue and made restitution in his timeframe and of his own accord, not b/c I deemed it the way to go for sake of manners.

I think sometimes parents (myself included) get so embarassed by the actions of our kids that we force apologies to make us look/feel better. It isn't a matter of the child doing it b/c they feel it is the way to go, it's about mom and dad wanting to look like they are on top of the situation.
post #73 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
It isn't a matter of coddling, it's a matter of forced apologies for the sake of manners are rarely heartfelt. The apologies from my son were heartfelt b/c he made the decision on his own when he was ready to apologize.

Forcing someone to apologize is not an apology, it's lip service.

My son felt plenty of shame and remorse without me adding to it.
I do agree that apologize should be something felt, not just words. As a child, I remember many times when I was forced to apologize and I was NOT feeling remorse or shame - I was feeling humiliated and angry.

That being said, I do think that talking to our children and explaining the situation and how it must have made others feel is helpful as long as its done to guide and not to shame them further.

I'm often amazed at the love and compassion my 12 year old gives freely without prompting. It touches me deeply when he dose this because I know he feels it in his heart.

I'm all for manners and treating others with respect. I try to instill my values in my children every day by living the life I want them to live, admitting when I've done something wrong and apologizing. Our kids ARE looking at us and learning from us every day.

GWH, Your son sounds like a very healthy child. It sounds like you were very shocked when you first discovered this and reacted in shock - who wouldn't? But I think you responded and explored this beautifully. Your son is very lucky to have such a compassionate and open mom
post #74 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacque Savageau View Post
That being said, I do think that talking to our children and explaining the situation and how it must have made others feel is helpful as long as its done to guide and not to shame them further.
I completely agree and I believe this is what will prompt a heartfelt apology as opposed to a forced apology. We explain the other person's point of view and their feeling, which will typically prompt an apology from the one who caused the hurt. I know my oldest is quicker to admit his mistakes and apologize. My middle two kids have a bit more trouble admitting their error and the hurt they caused b/c they feel very badly that their action had those results (typically unintended results). It takes my middle son a good hour sometimes before he is able to apologize and admit his mistake.
post #75 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovemy3babies View Post
I understand where you are coming from. The actual problem will more then likely be solved by communication, getting to the root of the problem. But my children WILL respect adults, or anyone in authority. If they do not, they will appologize for it. Even if they dont mean it, its good manners.

He could have gotten his grandparents into some trouble with what he was viewing. He should at LEAST have to appologize, not that it fixes the problem, but its out of respect.
I understand what you're saying, but I think you might want to review your idea about authority/respect/politeness as your children grow - an overly punitive attitude like the one you've expressed here, coupled with the idea that children WILL do this and WILL do that, and the notion that respect and remorse can be forced, is putting your foot on a long, hard road that will lead to much heartache, in my opinion.
post #76 of 172
He's almost 12. The one thing I remember about that time was this INSANE drive for sex. It was uncanny how much I thought about sex and wanted to see females naked.

You're son is perfectly normal. My advice, as a guy, is for you to put up the front that it's not ok to him and make him get rid of it when you catch, but don't shame him for it.

So long as he's not getting into weirdo porn, like S&M or "rape" stuff, then your son will turn out perfectly normal. If he starts going down THAT road, THEN you need to worry and maybe even set up counselling for him because he has a problem.

If it's normal porn, I simply wouldn't ENCOURAGE it, and I'd make it tough as heck for him to get to, but I wouldn't shame him over it or make him feel like it's wrong to have these urges. They are perfectly normal for a boy his age.
post #77 of 172
Lisa, let me start by saying that I did not read the whole thread but I, of course, have some thoughts on this subject. Your son, as others have said and you point out, is an amazing person who has a totally natural curiousity and limited means to explore those interests. US American culture is very sex negative and I really commend you for trying not to pass this legacy to your son. You are navigating some tough territory with grace, IMO.

Here are my thoughts: I would NOT buy something like playboy or what not because those mags really just duplicate the problematic images of women you mention in your first post and they are produced by rather awful companies as well. That said, helping him to find outlets for his curiosity seems like a very healthy and reasonable goal. Erotica books with reasonable content and books about sex (like guides or the like) are a great source of info for younger people and have been loved by snoping teens for years)! Reasonable materials can be found through great feminist websites like blowfish dot com and babeland dot com and also good vibrations.

That said, my son is obsessed with the nudey magazines in the window at a bodega on the corner - he is not even 5 and thinks I should buy him Black Man I imagine I will have my hands very full in a few years!
post #78 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSAX View Post
Here are my thoughts: I would NOT buy something like playboy or what not because those mags really just duplicate the problematic images of women you mention in your first post and they are produced by rather awful companies as well. That said, helping him to find outlets for his curiosity seems like a very healthy and reasonable goal. Erotica books with reasonable content and books about sex (like guides or the like) are a great source of info for younger people and have been loved by snoping teens for years)! Reasonable materials can be found through great feminist websites like blowfish dot com and babeland dot com and also good vibrations.
Please, oh please, don't do that to the child. There's nothing wrong with playboy. And there's nothing wrong your child's sexual curiosity. I know that "feminist" sites just aren't in tune with men, and as a result your son could get really screwed up. Also, men have almost NO desire for erotica books. None, whatsoever. So erotica books, while considered almost "porn" for a female, does very little for a man.
post #79 of 172
little reminder, we aren't talking about a man and mastebatory habits, we are talking about a curious soon to be 12 year old.

educating is enough at this age, and books about the human body/sex from a clinical aspect are good references for PARENTS to read (imo) to help educate their children. I wouldn't advise just handing the books over. If the boy is really just looking for a visual stimulous I would not recomend porn or nudity at this age, but teen mags/mens magazines should suffice for curiousities sake.
post #80 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vypros View Post
Please, oh please, don't do that to the child. There's nothing wrong with playboy. And there's nothing wrong your child's sexual curiosity. I know that "feminist" sites just aren't in tune with men, and as a result your son could get really screwed up. Also, men have almost NO desire for erotica books. None, whatsoever. So erotica books, while considered almost "porn" for a female, does very little for a man.
Oh please, oh please don't think you know so much as to suggest that A. you know what this class of people you call "men" all want and like and B. that exposing boys of feminist porn instead of mainstream porn is somehow going to screw them up. I am highly trained in human sexuality and while there are some interesting ideological responses to feminist eroticism, some and some cute folk wisdom about 'the sexes' in your response, there is nothing scientific, nothing factual, and nothing of any merit in your response.

We are talking about an 11 year old boy here - not what you or men you know like to get off with. More power too you, I am cool with adults doing whatever they like. I am suggesting that such mags have the same imagines the OP had protested to in the first place and that she would possibly be better served by simply having some other books around that, should he be curious, he could find and loot at. Certianly my healthy, happy and well-adjusted 3 older brothers did precisely this at that age and guess what, they survived the 'screw up' potential you suggest.
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