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support for UC in a UC forum - Page 2

post #21 of 44
negative does not necesarily mean unsupportive!

I think this is a good point. But I think criticizing, or even attempting to delicately ask questions about the mother's choices right after a birth is probably too much for her to handle. She's got a lot to process and unless she's thrilled with how things turned out....well, she's PROBABLY not in any sort of mood to discuss it.

I think personally I just don't tend to comment on a person's birth story. Other than to offer congratulations.

I think that if women want to discuss "what went wrong" or what could be done differently, or how she is disappointed in the experience, then she'll come around to it eventually when she's more open to hearing other people's opinions and ideas.
post #22 of 44
Thread Starter 
nevermind.
post #23 of 44
[QUOTE=2bluefish;8023101]Case in point - what gives you the right to decide if a woman has made a legitimate choice?

QUOTE]

My point is that sometimes women ASK for this type of advice, and then get testy when they don't like the answer......sort of like when a woman asks if her butt looks big in these jeans...some women want an honest response, and some women want you to reply quickly and heartily "no, of course not" regardless of what they actually look like.

If someone comes on here and says "blah, blah......what should I do?" or "blah blah....is this the right choice?" then when posters reply and give their honest opinion, and some of it is not what the OP wants to hear, and the OP gets all ticked, I think that's just silly. If you don't want honest advice.....don't ask!
now, when people make unsolicited remarks, or remarks in direct oppostiion to what a OP has specifically asked them NOT to make...I think that is wrong.
Like if someone says "I'm an not planning a UC, but would like to do some of my prenatal care myself, can you guys help me learn about how to do that?" and then people jump in telling the person why she should UC instead of giving her the help she requested, that is wrong. Or if someone writes their birthstory to share, and gerts jumped on with a bunch or questions and critiques (unless she asked for it) I think that';s in poor taste as well.

But if you ASK for opinions/advice/critiques.......don't get your panties in a bunch if you get some negative replies. And keep in mind you are asking your question on a UC BOARD. If you want a regualr homebirth perspective, or mainstream hosp birth perspective...there are places you can go to get that!!!
post #24 of 44
I don't have alot of time for the discussion, because my husband had a horseback riding accident, and I have been busy caring for him for the past day an a half. I have been thinking about this though. And I wanted to express this thought - if this was *just* a forum for information exchange, then I would say "yes" anyone who shares anything should be comfortable knowing that anyone else can say anything else they want to positive, negative or neutral in response. But I think what *I'm* trying to express is that the forum is more than that for me - and I think for others - it's a place to find support and encouragement, and connect with other people. I think that looking for a greater connection is what causes us to sometimes be disappointed. The medium is imperfect, but it's the best we've got. I would love to sit down and and have a face to face meet up - that would be awesome!

As rajahkat explained, after a birth - even a good birth, a woman is trying to find a frame of reference for that experience - and if she feels that there is a possibility of negative commentary, she may not feel safe sharing at that time. As 4littlebirds said, I don't think there is anything anyone can do about preventing others from saying untimely things. As I tried to express in the other thread, I don't know that I'm even asking anyone to do anything or change anything. I was just looking for a connection with other women who felt the same protective way about their birth stories.

My own births have been deeply spiritual experiences through which I've learned a number of valuable life lessons. They were successful, autonomous births deeply influenced by the UC movement, even if they weren't UCs. And I do feel protective of my stories.

I'm sorry that some of my comments seemed to have been taken personally. I was only saying that I sometimes see a collective thought process that doesn't ring true to my life experience. That doesn't mean that any one person is to fault for creating that impression. I found it kind of sweet and puzzling that those whose posts often resonate with me the most are the ones who felt offended!
post #25 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobandjess99 View Post
My point is that sometimes women ASK for this type of advice, and then get testy when they don't like the answer......sort of like when a woman asks if her butt looks big in these jeans...
I can certainly see that point.
post #26 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajahkat View Post
Do you mean you never read a transfer story the entire time you were pregnant and planning a UC? WOW! It must have been a good run then. It seems to me there is often a pattern, a string of babies born UC, no problems, then a string of transfers.
No . . . I don't mean that at all. I wrote a very, very long post on this and deleted it, because I can't seem to express myself well. But that is not what I'm talking about at all.

I'll try to work on it and explain. I believe this is, to a great degree, the fundamental source of the issue (for me) and why I tend to post saying things like, "This is atypical, but _____________," especially when the OP's question directly relates to my own personal experience.

I'm sorry, I feel like I just can't express this in a way that will be understood. I'll work on it.

Julia
dd 1
post #27 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourlittlebirds View Post
I completely agree with everything you're saying here (and appreciate the thoughtfulness in the rest of your post ) but I'm still perplexed. Because (I'm assuming) you wouldn't bring up these issues if you didn't consider them to be issues. That is: do you really feel you haven't been allowed to share your perspective? That people really are saying that if you've done everything "right" you're guaranteed a desired outcome? That "failed" UC stories are not welcome here? That the general concensus is that to discuss possible negatives to UC is to not be supportive of UC?
Actually, my comments here are in direct response to comments made on this thread that UCers aren't free to say what they want in support of UC or be honest/critical of others' choices without being accused of being unsupportive. I have never brought up any of these issues, anywhere in this community (although now I've responded to it). All I'm saying is that I want the freedom to be able to do the same - support a mama who had a bad UC transfer or who is thinking about doing something different the next time and help her work through her feelings about UC. Also share my perspective with a new mama considering UC. That is not inherently unsupportive of UC either; it is providing additional information, thought and perspective to someone who is presumably seeking knowledge. And when the whole issue got started on the other thread, I was commenting in response to your question about something she said WRT this issue.

If this was an "issue" for me that I really felt badly about, or felt that the situation was wrong, unfair, inappropriate, or offensive, I would have either left the community permanently (left temporarily when I knew the potential reactions could be hurtful to me) or started a discussion on it, or PMed someone I thought was a major offender. As it was, though, I dealt with it by keeping myself away when needed, to protect myself, and returned when I was ready to talk and take a little (not a lot!) of innuendo, questioning, and even criticism.

In fact, when I do see the kind of thing we've been talking about, I don't respond to it. I feel its presence but I don't think it's worthy of deep concern on my part. However, when it was brought up by someone else (the other OP, then you asked about it), I do feel that I have something to say about it that might be worth hearing, as long as we're talking about it anyway.

Quote:
I understand this totally, and you're right, the possibility of someone commenting negatively *does* make it difficult to share freely. But unfortunately, this just isn't something we can control. We can't make this a totally safe space; things that hurt or offend or are unsupportive *are* occasionally going to get written. It's just the unpleasant reality of a public forum. But in general, like you alluded to, people here attempt as much as possible to be gentle and understanding. This is a much safer place than anywhere else I can think of on the internet.


I have no problem with this. Hopefully that's clear. The part that you quoted (that you're responding to here) was an observation, not a request. I tailored my behavior to suit my needs, rather than expecting a change from this community which could be detrimental to everyone and extremely difficult, if not impossible, to implement. But that does not mean that the issue does not exist, merely that it did not seem helpful to me to discuss it. I believe gentle honesty is superior to trying to please everyone, although I will say I would never critique a birthstory in any way unless a woman asked for opinions. If I was troubled by her choices, I would simply not respond (or only respond with balloons ).

And finally, I think that in some of what I've written, my use of generalizations has been unhelpful. Someone pointed out that even here we can't agree on exactly what UC is. I don't think there's an US and a THEM - not at all. Which, I think, is why I keep stressing how fond I am of this community. : Instead, I'm just sort of trying to give a snapshot of what's in my head - my own perception of an - overwhelming majority, maybe? Unintentional, but powerful and overriding sense of agreement with respect to this particular subject? It's not that Team A always agrees with everything on List A and Team B always disagrees and has their own list. Instead, that on this issue, I *perceived*, while preparing for my first UC, the general impression I have explained elsewhere. How much of that was because I wanted to see it is uncertain, and although that certainly played a role, I am completely sure that it was not purely my own desire to believe it that made it appear so pervasive.

I wish I could explain it better. Some of what I'm saying makes it sound like I'm critical of this forum, and I'm really not. I'm not upset or troubled by it. It is really more about observation and the reservation of the right to present my own experience as a part of the UC quilt, so to speak.

Sorry, I really feel like I've got cotton in my mouth or something. Anyway, I hope that helps.

Julia
dd 1
post #28 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Romana9+2 View Post
All I'm saying is that I want the freedom to be able to do the same - support a mama who had a bad UC transfer or who is thinking about doing something different the next time and help her work through her feelings about UC. Also share my perspective with a new mama considering UC. That is not inherently unsupportive of UC either; it is providing additional information, thought and perspective to someone who is presumably seeking knowledge.
But, but, but... this is all good! It's totally appropriate for this forum. I am *very* sorry if anyone has felt like they couldn't share share their story or offer their support because they felt they weren't welcome to do so.

Quote:
Instead, I'm just sort of trying to give a snapshot of what's in my head - my own perception of an - overwhelming majority, maybe? Unintentional, but powerful and overriding sense of agreement with respect to this particular subject?
I wonder if part of the problem is that -- people comment inappropriately, and then nobody calls them on it? Or maybe one person does, gently, but everybody else thinks that's sufficient and moves on? In that not-to-be-named story we were talking about I did ignore a somewhat inappropriate response. It seemed a clear violation of that tacit rule of birth stories, that you don't offer (even what is meant to be constructive) criticism unless the story-teller asks for it, obvious enough here that it wasn't even worth commenting on. Like, oh dear, that person just made a social faux pas apparent to everyone so there's no point in calling attention to it, better to just avert one's eyes. Complicating it of course was that it wasn't entirely clear that advice or opinions weren't being asked for. I myself wrote a little book -- that I hoped would be read carefully as it was meant, to be supportive and validating of that experience, but maybe the conjecturing was felt to be invalidating in itself. I think these misunderstandings happen a lot, and fan the flames of the real incidents. But I think that nearly all of us do intend to be supportive and respectful, even when we disagree. It pains me to think of someone coming away from here with a different impression. But then again, we probably couldn't be everything to everyone even if we tried.

Quote:
I have no problem with this. Hopefully that's clear. The part that you quoted (that you're responding to here) was an observation, not a request.
I know, and ditto.
post #29 of 44
a comment about commenting on UC's that transfered or otherwise didn't work out - I think perhaps some people don't say as many supportive things as they could because they just don't know what to say. that is certainly the case for me, I have been a lurker in the UC board for quite a long time but rarely post more than a couple of words or a hug because I really just don't know what to say

from what I have seen this forum seems very supportive, and I agree it would be nice if noone had to put a disclaimer in their posts.
post #30 of 44

Is This You??!

I think alot of communication flare ups on this board arise due to a few factors. Ask yourself, are any of these YOU?:

1. You are pregnant for the first time and you are gung-ho about UC. This was me. I honestly couldn't imagine doing it another way. I KNOW that I have insulted people on this board when I was pregnant! I thought I knew everything!! BTW, If I insulted you, I am VERY sorry. Hindsight really is 20/20.

2. You had a UC transfer and come back to this UC board before your hormones have normalized. When I read back at my old post regarding my birth and the subsequent banter, I am amazed at what offended me then! I must have been SO hormonal! Definitely defensive. Although I didn't ask for advice, I certainly received some questions that implied that "maybe there were a few other things I could have tried". I remember being FURIOUS at that post. enough so that I didn't come back here for 6 months! When I read them now, they just seem "ill-timed".

3. You have had bad birth experiences with either midwives or doctors and can't imagine a good experience for anyone unless it's a UC
. Reality check: Not everyone has a problem with the idea of a physical check for dilation. I would have let the mailman check my dilation after 30 hours of laboring at home!! I just wanted to know what the hell was going on down there!! Remember, I thought I knew everything!

4. You've posted here under 100 times and think that you "know this community". Wait! That's me!! I lurk more than I post, though, I swear!!:

hahah just some observations I've made...I really do love this community!
post #31 of 44
Hi, my name is Kate and I'm a failed UCer.

Having said that, I have to chime in with my 2 kuruş worth. I started visiting this forum when it looked like we may have to UC, whether we wanted to or not. UC was not my first choice, but I was never uncomfortable with it. It was never scary or something that I had to fight for, it evolved for our family. I spent a lot of time reading birth stories, UC stories, asking questions, lurking, PMing, gathering all the info that I could in preparation for our big event. Granted, I am no stranger to the birth world and have a lot of "insider information," but somehow that doesn't quite transfer when it's your own body and baby.

I am one of those women who did all the "right" things as far as UC goes. Took the "right" supplements, didn't see a scary doctor since the first trimester, had my stash of herbal remedies all ready to go, meditated on the perfect birth experience, communed with my womb, all of it. I never felt the slightest hesitation about giving birth at home with just my husband and daughter and possibly a friend or two. I even bought a T-shirt for the baby that said "I'm special, I was born at home." I never lied about my plans to UC, never claimed that I was doing anything other than what I was. All of it was for naught. Most of you who have been around for a while know what happened. For those who are new, I went through 80 hours of labor at home with a high and tightly closed cervix that never went anywhere. (And I'm sure that there are some of you who think that it was probably prodromal labor, but I can assure you that it was not. So can a couple of doctors and a handful of nurses, if you speak Turkish.) My UC went so far awry that I didn't even recognize what eventually happened as a "birth." My son was born by cesarean section while I was under general anesthesia.

Throughout it all--pregnancy, long labor, aftermath, and postpartum--I never felt anything but support from the UC forum posters. I came here when I was upset, disappointed, and angry at the world for what happend to us. Sure, some people had advice or comments that were either not helpful or not relevant to my situation, but that doesn't offend me. I take what I can use and leave the rest. Have I had people get offended over things that I've written? Probably. Does that bother me? Nah, not really. I apologize for the offense, but not for the information. (I still firmly believe that "gestational diabetes" is a medical urban legend and that GBS is overtreated.)

Should we have to make disclaimers with everything that we write? I don't think so, but then it might be a good idea for pregnant women to start every conversation with "whatever you say might offend me, so please don't say anything at all." If someone posts a piece of advice that is not particularly helpful to you, merely say "thank you" and move on. You (general you) don't need to argue about why it's not relevant or why you find it absurd. Let it go.

I think that's something that everyone needs to do every now and then, so I'll say it again . . . .

Let it go.
post #32 of 44
: I was wondering if you were going to weigh in on the topic at hand. Very well put, Kate.

FWIW, whenever I've asked for advice/opinions here, although I may not agree with everything that's put out there, it always makes me think a little harder and a little longer than I would have if I hadn't asked in the first place. And then I dive back in to researching and dh asks when the computer will be free.
post #33 of 44
My heart was very warmed at the support you got Turkish Kate. It was a blessing, and I'm so glad people were there for you.
post #34 of 44
I just read your story recently Turkish Kate, and I referred to it to a couple of my birth cohorts here recently. Sometimes it's easy for all of us natural birth advocates to forget that things don't always go as planned no matter what we do. I think your story, while heartbreaking, is testament to the power of birth. I got goosebumps when I read it!
post #35 of 44
I've had some correspondence concerning this post and why I'm not posting in this forum anymore, so I thought I'd put out a little blurb and then take my own advice to let it go. LOL

To be completely honest, I am still very disappointed in how Ahmet's birth went. I still can't really think about it without getting upset about all the aggravation, not to mention the investments made without return (time, money, mental preparation, etc.). I think I had the world's most expensive c-section if you consider the expense that we went to preparing for a UC, then paid out of pocket for the birth at a private hospital (but the food was really, really good!). I am not able to read birth stories, UC plans, pregnancy forums, or anything else just yet because it still hurts my heart so much and I am jealous. Oh my God, I never thought I could be so jealous of other women's birth experiences. I have several friends who had babies within the few months before and after me and when I read their stories, I get so angry with them. It's not fair. Half of them didn't read anything of any value, didn't care whether they delivered vaginally or surgically, didn't take care of themselves while pregnant, etc. And they had their births. It's so not fair.

I cruise through the UC forum every now and then and will skim the topics. Occasionally I will read, rarely will I post. Not that I feel like I don't have the right (well, partly), but just because I know that my heart and soul need to heal before I can be of any use to anyone, including myself.

We are still debating the possibility of another baby but DH and I are both terrified of another experience like the last one. At least I know what to expect now and how much the surgery will cost (the food was good, but not that good!). We hadn't budgeted for it with Ahmet and it impacted our finances quite a bit. If we decide to go for another baby, it will be another UP, although probably not a UC, and I will be back here when I'm in the right frame of mind.

Love and good wishes to you all!
post #36 of 44
I have only skimmed the previous posts, and for that I apologize if I am going off topic. I am going to UC. But I don't post here very often these days. In fact, unless I'm having a "strong day" I don't come to the birth area of the boards at all. I have done the legwork and I know that there are things that make tranferring necessary, and I am very sorry for mommas that have had to make that decision, and even worse for those who cannot find peace with that outcome.

I think that the biggest part of UC'ing is finding that quiet place, that calm place in your soul where you are ok with it, and trusting enough in yourself to go forth. Doubts in a UC (for me) would be disasterous. Even if everything went perfectly, if I did not have enough faith, or had not worked through my baggage before hand, I would not be able to have a good UC, or a UC at all. That is not to say that I believe that things never go wrong (one of my many disclaimers in this post). However, for me, reading transfer stories is a way of preparing myself and trying to figure out how to avoid a transfer. I don't say as much because I respect the pain of the women processing those births, but its true. I can't sit here and say its a valid reason to transfer if I don't feel that. I can't even read about transfers without asking myself what I would do differently to get the outcome that *I* am looking for. Its not disrespect, its problem solving.

This forum has an inherent flaw, because it is not restricted to UC positive mommas, and there is just too much drama because of those situations where people have chosen another birth and feel they need to justify it.

I know that I cannot come here and feel the warmth of the pro-UCing community envelop me, as I could somewhere that only pro-UC/planning or had a UC parents go. There's just so much drama and too much need to defend, to get that positive vibe that, for me, is just so important. I can't come here and voice doubts and have the reassuring faith of other UC'ers tell me "you can do it!!" and "its the right choice, we have faith in you!!". Sure, that is here, but its tempered with the voices of the rest of MDC that doesn't feel that way.

I think its great that there is a UC forum, and that there are yahoo groups for UCers. I wish that UC was an acceptable method of birth around the world, but I'm just not in a position right now to "fight the good fight". I just want to gestate in peace and get affirmations from others when my faith waivers. If I wasn't pregnant, and planning a UC, I would feel much differently, but right now, surrounding myself in a cocoon of confidence and tranquility is more important than defending my views on how great UC is for *most* births, and how unnecessary *most* interventions are.

I hope you all have wonderful births, and those of you who do not, can see your way through to the other side of your pain.
post #37 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenlaana View Post
I can't sit here and say its a valid reason to transfer if I don't feel that.
Here's where I *will* preach humility. It's fine to decide that for yourself that would not be a valid reason to transfer. Just don't judge that it wasn't for another woman. You see, sometimes the goal isn't "to avoid transfer" or "to have a UC" for a particular woman. Sometimes the goal is a "trauma free birth" or something else. If a particular woman decides in the moment that another course of action will better met her goals, she may change course. That ability to decide for oneself is the essence of UC "for me".

I wasn't able to meet all my goals last birth, but I did meet the main ones by being flexible and evaluating my needs as my labor progressed. I do not mourn a lost UC. I do mourn having those first moments with my baby stolen from me. It was a high price to pay for an untraumatic labor and delivery.

This is why I felt unsafe sharing my birthing with in this forum right away, and why I did not post my birth story for 9 months. To have someone judge that my reasons were not "valid" is unfair. We must not assume that we all have the exact same goals. I've read UC stories where mamas were thrilled, and I would have been horrified by the traumas they endured. We all have different personalities and different ways we define "success".
post #38 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
I know that I cannot come here and feel the warmth of the pro-UCing community envelop me, as I could somewhere that only pro-UC/planning or had a UC parents go. There's just so much drama and too much need to defend, to get that positive vibe that, for me, is just so important. I can't come here and voice doubts and have the reassuring faith of other UC'ers tell me "you can do it!!" and "its the right choice, we have faith in you!!". Sure, that is here, but its tempered with the voices of the rest of MDC that doesn't feel that way.
I feel this way too. I'm not pregnant right now, & that's why I can even read here, let alone post. If I were to be pregnant in the future, I would have to stay away...and that is a shame.
post #39 of 44
That would be a shame Mama in the Forest. Yours is one of the biggest voices of strength I know. I'm kind of surprised that you would ever have a doubt in your mind with all your UC experience! Or that you would ever feel vunerable. Kind of makes me feel better in a weird way - that I'm not a complete and utter fruit loop!

I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't be better to stay away from boards completely. I think you come to a place where everyone is looking for something different, trying to find help and comfort, maybe it's better to look within.... But I do *so* enjoy talking!
post #40 of 44
Yeah, I think the UC boards are a mixed blessing. I planned my first birth which was UC without really understanding what a message board was. I read all the birth stories I could find, but I was pretty computer illiterate at the time and didn't participate on any boards. Having seen the drama can unfold, I'm really thankful that my first pregnancy and birth progressed without it. I think it set me up to be in a good place......I feel like so many UC mamas rely on computer folks as their only support system that when a string of transfers (or some other unsettling set of events) occurs it really shakes their faith.......just rambling

Kat
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