Frugality without DH support?

[papschmitty]

DH and I have been living together for 9 years, married for 4. We have always maintained separate bank accounts. I'm much better with money than he is so he just transfers money into my account to cover his portion of our living expenses. This has worked pretty well up until now so we rarely argue about money. He has a weird hang-up about being told what to do with his money. We have an unwritten rule that any major purchases must be a joint decision and other than that, once the bills are paid we are each free to do what we want with our money.

When DH and I first started living together, we were pretty poor. He made very little money and I worked only part time while going to school. We rented a shack (literally) in the woods and drove beater cars. I went to my mom's house every week to do laundry...you get the picture. We lived pretty frugally then because we didn't have a choice.

Since then DH and I both have successful careers. We make about $100K per year between the two of us. We have about $12,000 in savings that we're reserving for possible fertility treatments and/or maternity leave in the next year or two. Our debt consists of a $225,000 mortgage, my car payment, my student loan payment, and a small line of credit for DH. We also pay about $150/mo into a college fund and both contribute to retirement. I know it's not a ton of debt compared to many people but somehow we're still living paycheck to paycheck. Don't get me wrong, we aren't really hurting but we spend all that we have each month.

I recent read the Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey and have a new feeling of furver to get us out of debt and build a better financial future. I tried talking to DH about it last night and he's totally resistant. He refuses to combine our finances (for fear of disrupting our relative money harmony), has no interest in trying to create a spending plan, and doesn't feel like we need to reign in our spending. He makes about 1/3 more money than I do so he has much more money to blow on his hobbies. When I tried to talk to him about it last night, he got frustrated and didn't want to discuss it anymore. His last statement was "I work hard for my money and I want to be able to play with it".

DH isn't a total selfish jerk. He does a lot for our family but I do find that I am the one paying for the necessities for our daughter much more than he is. We had discussed putting extra money towards bills a few months ago and he was supportive then. I think he's willing to do an extra $100-$200 per month towards debt but is so resistant to anything structured.

Sorry for the novel, I needed to vent. I guess my question is is it realistic for me to try to have a "total money makeover" without his help? The car payment and student loan payment are both mine. If I really put myself on a tight budget, I'll have about $400/mo extra work on snowballing. I'm worried I'm going to get bitter seeing him spend blindly while I'm sacrificing. Am I living in a dream world? Any suggestions for getting DH on board?

[thriftyqueen]

I think I would work on it with the money you have. Maybe seeing what you are saving and being able to pay down will help him to see what he could be doing too. Even if it doesn't, you will be that much closer to paying down the debt that you would like to pay down and you won't have those bills to pay every month. If you get the student loan and car debt paid off, you will be able to save that money each month for something you want or just have it available to you.

I would say if you can get him on board, great. Don't worry about it if you can't. You will feel great knowing that you are paying down debt instead of buying stuff you don't really need with the money you have left over each month.

[fiesta'smom]

Since financial bliss rarely exists in a relationship....I'd not rock that boat too hard personally. Maybe you can just appeal to his logic and here's my take on that. This plan doesn't so much look at getting out of debt but it could be a place to start.

Figure out what it really costs to take care of your daughter and the household. Then the two of you can divide that up by the percentage of your incomes that it takes to cover it. So if he makes 60% of the money and you make 40%, then he would pay 60% of those expenses and you'd pay 40%. IMHO, it's unfair that he makes more money and yet you split the expenses 50/50. He may simply have more earning potential than you do...you certainly work just as hard! Plus you likely do a larger percentage of the work to be done regarding the home and your child too. This is a way for him to even that out. He'll still have money to play with and maybe you can start paying off debt with the money that you are no longer contributing to the budget (that other 10%).

Does that make sense? If he can see the logic he might go for it!

[zeldabee]

I'd question why he gets to play with his money, and you don't. You are a family. I'd be pretty mad if I was in a partnership with someone who made more money than me, but I was paying for more necessities. If he'll agree to fork over a bigger portion toward your family's needs...I don't know, it's hard for me to be sympathetic toward your husband, but then I'm looking at it through my own filter--I threw my son's father out when he wouldn't contribute a fair share toward expenses, and spent most of his money on hobbies.

It was my feeling then, and it is now, that my son comes first, and my old hobbies dead last. I'm not saying your situation is anything like that, but it sure sounds like your partner is being a little bit irresponsible. Maybe you could each continue to keep a portion of your incomes individually, but throw the rest in a common pot. It wouldn't have to be a total melding, but might be more equitable.

[MommaCrystal]

Have you emphasized that if you get on a good plan and work together in the end he'll probably end up with even more money to play with?

I'm VERY familiar with TTMMO! We very very carefully follow the plan. In just over two years we have paid off at least $50,000 in debt (car loans, student loans, and credit cards) while giving birth to our first child AND me leaving my job for good. Our income came down to $70,000 gross just 6 months into our plan. Our mortgage was around $150,000. Oh, and we gave around $5,000 a year to charity AND paid into a 401k.

We still had money to play with. We still had money for hobbies. We still went out to eat about 2x's a month. Yes we cut back on those things but we also cut back on other things (ie we dropped our grocery bill by almost $200 a month).

I am of the opinion that you cannot do it if you do not work together. You're both responsible for each other's bills. You both have to work to get out of it.

Have you tried talking about how much money your waisting on finance charges and such? That worked for my husband.

[papschmitty]

Thanks for the suggestions.

Another wrinkle in this saga is that DH's income isn't all that steady. He's a mechanic and gets paid flat rate. This is common in dealerships where they get paid by the job and not by the hour, similar to working commission. When there's a lot of work, he's making great money but if there's no work he makes nothing. In his defense, things have been slower than normal for him at work. On average, his take home pay is about $1800-$2000 every two weeks, that's after taxes and retirement. My income is steady. I just took a small voluntary cut in hours at my main job so I could work 32 hours per week instead of 40. I work 2 jobs. My "career" is a nurse and after taxes, retirement, childcare flex spending account, benefits, etc. I take home about $1050 twice a month. I get about $400/mo back from the childcare flex account. My other job is for my father's business and I take home about $400 per month. We've never actually sat down and crunched the numbers but our division of finances goes a little something like this:

My Debts
Car $330/mo - balance $12,500 (I wanted something cheaper but DH insisted. Since he's the one who has to work on it, I went along with it)
Student loan $115/mo - balance $5,500

DH Debts
Personal line of credit balance $900 - He's paying the minimum payment like an idiot
Tool bills for work $50/mo (variable)
Cell phone $100/mo

He gives me about $875 from each of his paychecks that I use to pay
Mortgage $1600/mo
Childcare $710/mo
Phone $40/mo
Cable TV/Internet $100/mo
Car insurance $250/mo
Garbage $30/mo
Water $15/mo
Electricity $150/mo
I'm sure I'm forgetting some

We each pay for our own gas. I pay the MD/prescription bills for myself and DD, most of the vet bills for the dog, I buy most of the household stuff (TP, cleaning supplies, shampoo, etc.). He pays when we so major grocery shopping but I'm always the one who pays for the quickie stops when we need just a few things. He pays $100/mo towards DD's college fund and I pay $50/mo. I would happily cancel the cable TV as I never watch it but he can't live without. The car insurance also isn't 50/50. It includes my car, his truck, his street motorcycle, and his dirt bike. He pays if we go out to eat but with DD's food allergies, we almost never do.

From what I can tell, he spends most of his discretionary money on eating out for lunch at work, dirt bike riding (gas, food, parts, upgrades, accessories) which he does weekly, and junk food. I'm very supportive of him having time to go ride his dirt bike. It's his de-stresser and he a total PITA if he doesn't have a chance to get out on a regular basis.

My "treats" are getting my hair cut and colored much less often than I should, maybe 3-4 times per year for $65 a pop. I don't have a lot of hobbies and spend most of my spare time with family. I paid for all of our fertility bills when we were TTC DD. When I went on maternity leave, it was using money that I had saved up myself. Other than $5,600 from our tax return, our savings has been built on my money.

I never used to be bitter about how our money was divied up but that was before he was making such good money. I'm starting to feel like I'm making more of the sacrifices while he plays. I think he thinks I'm making the choice not to play so I shouldn't complain. He gets very defensive if he thinks I'm telling him what to do with his money.

[papschmitty]

Originally Posted by MommaCrystal

Have you emphasized that if you get on a good plan and work together in the end he'll probably end up with even more money to play with?

Have you tried talking about how much money your waisting on finance charges and such? That worked for my husband.

I tried explaining this to him during our discussion the other night. He's not overly happy at his job but doesn't have much flexibility to change. He has mentioned several times in the past that he would love to be able to flip houses as a career. He's very handy and probably could be successful at it. I know the housing market has tanked. This is just him dreaming big. I tried explaining that if we take a few years to really get financially secure, he could quit his job and do something much more personally fulfilling, whether it's flipping houses, bagging groceries, or whatever else. He could choose a job based on his passion instead of his pay. He just keeps saying that he works hard for his money and wants to be able to spend it. Most of the time, he isn't make ridiculous purchases. Our TV is the same 27" I had before we ever met even though he'd love something like BIL's excessive setup. He doesn't care about the latest and greatest techno gadgets. He has several toys (snowboard, wakeboard, street bike, a dirt bike, a car that he'll eventually get around to restoring to race autocross, and a couple fixer-upper motorcycles that he got for free or a couple hundred dollars). I think he's mostly nickel and diming his money away.

When I saw the bank statement on his line of credit, I almost peed my pants. He's just paying what the bank automatically transfers as a payment and nothing more. The balance is around $900 and the payment is only around $60/mo, half of which is going to interest! So essentially he's paying $30/mo on a debt that he could pay off in a month or two if he really set his mind to it. I tried pointing this out but he just got defensive.

Sometimes, he takes these things really personally. He's a high school graduate. He's very smart but was never a good student and didn't have the support from his parent to go to college. I have 2 college degrees. He's hypersensitive about this and often thinks I think he's stupid, which of course I don't at all. I try to point out that he makes more money than me despite the difference in education but he doesn't listen. I'm not trying to sound conceited or put down anyone that didn't go to college. I'm just trying to say that sometimes he doesn't really hear me because is own insecurities get in the way.

[quirkylayne]

Yes, he needs to be contributing more. He is only paying a little more than 1/2 the mortgage! At a minimum I would ask him to contribute 1/2 the regular household expenses that you wrote out here, which would = $1440. So, maybe he won't be willing to do that right away since it would be over $500 more a month. Perhaps you could negotiate that to 1100?

[thriftyqueen]

So he gives you $875 twice per month? So $1750?

[thriftyqueen]

I guess I don't personally understand the two accounts, but that is because we have always only had one. My husband makes the money, does the bills and gives me what I need for food, household, etc. It works for us because we only have one income for the most part.

I understand why you are frustrated. It would be irritating to be trying to save and have someone who wants to "play". I don't really have any advice. Hopefully someone else on here has been in this situation before.

[Thystle]

A marriage is a "comprimise" between two people.


When one person wants to act like a "single" that's not a marriage. If YOU basically take care of all the "adult/grown up" stuff and then he just pays you for "time living there" it's almost like being an escort in a way. I know that sounds harsh but... You are adults and you have to plan for the future. He is can't be a "spoiled" child who always gets his way... it's not fair to you, your kids or your future.




Is there any possibility of you two going to a few joint counseling sessions together? HE needs to get to the root of his money and control issues, or it could drive a wedge in between you too wide to bridge one day.



{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}

[papschmitty]

So he gives you $875 twice per month? So $1750?

Yes, around that. When he's making a lot more at work, I'll get closer to $1900 and when things are really, really slow I'll get less.

We just kind of fell into having 2 separate accts way back when. When we started living together, he wouldn't let me help pay rent because I was going to school and had such little money. I've worked since age 15 and have always been self sufficient. Not paying rent felt like free-loading so I'd just pay some of the household bills. Once I was working full time, he paid rent and I paid household stuff. It has always worked for us and like I said before, we almost never fought about money. We didn't want to rock the boat so when we got married we just kept things as is. I don't even mind the separate accts, I'm much more frustrated with the difference in money goals and philosophies.

DH is a good father and husband. I don't feel like is escort at all. We have very different personalities. I'm very Type A, very anal. I like to plan for the future. I balance my checkbook to the penny every month. I've never bounced a check and have rarely made late payments on anything. I have a stellar credit rating. I pay ahead on everything. DH is much more Type B, a go with the flow kind of guy. He never balances his checkbook, he just gets online and checks his balance periodically to make sure he's got money. He's mediocre paying his bills. Not terrible, just not as on top of things as I'd like.

I'm not sure exactly where his issues about keeping money separate comes from. He does have quite a few friends whose wives have complete control over the finances. They are given an "allowance" and that's it. They have no say in where their hard earned money goes. This drives DH insane. I have no interest in having this type of situation, I just want it to feel more like a joint venture.

Let me clarify that we have access to each other's accts but only to be able to transfer money between them. I get online and transfer the money to myself after each of his paydays. In the past, I have gotten into his account and transferred money to pay ahead on his truck loan, anywhere from $100 to $300 per month depending on his income. I did this without his consent for about 6 months before he even noticed! He was very upset with me when he found out, even though the money was going to his own debt. Once he was used to the idea, I kept doing it and he was OK with it.

We did premarital counseling and never once discussed money. It truly hasn't been much of an issue until now. He's seeing a counselor on his own right now for depression. Maybe he could talk about his money issues in an upcoming appointment.

Other than my student years, I've always made more money so was happy to carry more of the financial load. Now that he's making more, I'd like to see more of his money coming my way for responsible things. This is why I'm really starting to hate keeping things so separate. It feels so selfish saying I need more of his money for my interests, even if they are responsible ones.

[birthjunkie27]

I don't understand the seperation of money either. A marriage is a union. A union of EVERYTHING, IMHO. You paid for your fertility treatments yourself??? Your savings (which I'm assuming is for both of you) is from YOUR money???? I'm sorry, but I'd keep that savings in my name and my name alone! You pay for your daughter's necessities yourself??? I'm sorry but it really seems that your dh needs a wake up call of sorts. (((hugs))) I really hope you get this resolved fairly and quickly.

[birthjunkie27]

Originally Posted by papschmitty

It feels so selfish saying I need more of his money for my interests, even if they are responsible ones.

You are not the one who should be feeling selfish in this arrangement.

[courtenay_e]

Ahhhh, but if it were YOUR interests, such as, oh, I don't know, going dancing or taking classes for fun, or spending money on facials or shopping for useless trinkets that MIGHT be selfish. This is not YOUR interests, per se...it's in the FAMILY's best interest to be debt free and stable. No, I completely agree with the pp's. If he's making 60% of the income, he needs to be paying a larger percentage of the bills...and whatever's left, he can do what ever the heck he wants to do with it! I agree, to, w/pp that counseling may be in order...for the two of you, so that you have a neutral ground on which to discuss this!

[quirkylayne]

I hear where you are coming from. It sounds like your DH is a good person, husband, father. You are happy in your marriage but feeling a little discontent about this particular issue. Your old system isn't working anymore.
It sounds like DH is reasonable but perhaps has a little hang up about $. Who knows the reason - there are alot of valid possibilities.

Ideas on working it out-

Ask, don't tell - wait for a good time, tell him you want to plan for your future together. Your should both have interests in your family.

Write it all out for him, appeal to his logic.

Seek counseling, sounds like he is already open to this.

We have a different, but somewhat similar arrangement. We have several accounts but "my" account is the main bill paying account. DH has "his" account for his mad $, etc. All of our accounts are joint, of course, but that is how we keep things separate and it works for us. We re evaluate occasionally and change things. Works fine for us.

[papschmitty]

You paid for your fertility treatments yourself???

For a long time, DH said he wasn't ready to have kids because we couldn't afford it. So I, being the responsible planner that I am, started a baby fund. I put a few hundred dollars per month in a savings account. It took us so long trying to get pg that I had a hefty balance. My insurance paid for most the the treatments but things like meds, acupunture, etc. came out of the baby fund. This is also what I used to cover my half of our living expenses while I was out on maternity leave.

'm sorry, but I'd keep that savings in my name and my name alone!

Since our accounts are separate, they are all in my name and my name alone.

You pay for your daughter's necessities yourself?

I'm the one that does the shopping for the household so I end up paying for most of the stuff. If we're at the store together, he'll pay. He just doesn't go shopping with me very often.

The more I read all these posts, the more depressed I get! I've always thought we had a reasonable set up but I sound like a total push over (which I'm not) and he sounds like a total A-hole (which he's not). Counseling might not be such a bad thing after all. One of my benefits at work is access to free financial planning. Maybe I'll see if he'd be willing to do this with me too.

[Thystle]

Joint counseling could help you two set up a better "split". You could get a savings that would make YOU feel better, and he could have his "free" money. BUT it has to be BOTH of you willing to do it... he can't just get pissy and say it's "his" money.

Legally it's YOURS together.


In 40 years from now when you are the only one who saved for anything and he has blown all his away and ruined your credit (most states credit is joined)... it will be like the tortoise and the hare.


How will you feel in 40 years when he has done nothing to help provide for your future? Or when you go to maybe pay for your child's education and all he has done was increase his bike collection?







He may be a great guy, but this will eat at you and it's not fair. There has to be something deep seated in him to make him act this way... most likely in his childhood. The people I know who were/are like this tended to have paren'ts who stole their child's money. I would really try to get into a few joint counseling sessions... it could really help!



Not trying to be witchy... just having a "bad cop" day!

[papschmitty]

Not trying to be witchy... just having a "bad cop" day!

It's good to hear the bad cop take on things! I think I've been too rosey about this for the sake of keeping the peace.

About the credit...I'm very protective of my good credit, that's why I'm in charge of paying the bills. His credit is fine. He's not borrowing tons of money or spending money he doesn't have. He's just not as interested in tightening the belt and reducing his spending.

There has to be something deep seated in him to make him act this way... most likely in his childhood.

That wouldn't surprise me. He had pretty crappy parents. They divorced when he was very little and neither one had much time for him growing up. His mom was too caught up in her own misery and his dad was too busy being the ladies man. Growing up, his mom was dirt poor and is not much better off today. His dad is pretty wealthy but never shared much of it with DH. He'd go on vacations to Europe with his new wife and leave DH behind because he was in the way. He didn't have a lot of stuff, so I'm sure that's why so much of his stuff is so important to him now. He's no the kind of guy that wants to keep up with the Joneses, he doesn't care what other people think of him. He just wants to feel like he gets to play hard for working hard.

[Pepperdove]

If he was just a roommate and a girl you would expect him to cover half the bills. If he wants to treat your money issues like you are roommates, that is keeping everything separate, I think he should pay half the bills! As far as I can tell he is not even paying half. If you were divorced (god forbid!) you'd expect him to pay towards your daughter's expenses. He should be doing it while you are married too!

It just does not seem like an equitable relationship in so many ways. Of course don't be the woman who controls all the money and gives him allowance. But he needs to act fairly.