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when would you call CPS? - Page 11

post #201 of 251
[QUOTE]I have a friend who does foster-care, so I've learned a few things about detachment disorder. Apparently, any child who has her relationship with her primary caregiver(s) disrupted in the first 3 years of life, is at risk for developing this disorder.[/QUOTE


Sort of. No, not really.

It is called Reactive attachment disorder.

It is a result of *multiple* changes in caregiver during childhood, or, more commonly, a result of living with abusive, neglectful, and/or inconsistent caregiver(s)

A child who is living with non-abusive parents, who are wrongly accused of something, and the child is wrongly removed while the situation is investigated (to get this far would be pretty rare), and placed in a foster home, then returned home *will not* develop attachment disorder. I'm not saying it wouldn't be terrible for the child and family, but that scenario almost never happens -- as many posters have pointed out, it takes a lot to get a kid removed, even from a clearly abusive situation.

It is this kind of hysterical propaganda against foster care and cps intervention that makes me want to scream.


Yes there are f'ups working in the field of social work and the judiciary system. Yes, there are some crappy foster parents, and some really abusive ones.

But really, almost everyone involved in this system is trying to *help* children and families.
post #202 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nature View Post
I do not subscribe to the idea that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Its not just an "acceptable loss" to me. The children who die in foster care, are abused there, or the children who never should have been taken and are now suffering from things like attachment disorders. Just because they saved some children from TRUE abuse and neglect, doesn't make it okay that they've ruined the lives of others. The end does not justify the means.

You're right about one thing. They are not just statistics and numbers. They are our children and they deserve better than this.
Exactly! You put it so much better than I could.
post #203 of 251
I agree with those who are telling you to mind your own business.

What the world needs, very badly, is even more people who don't give a crap. There just aren't enough of those!
post #204 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by gus'smama View Post
A child who is living with non-abusive parents, who are wrongly accused of something, and the child is wrongly removed while the situation is investigated (to get this far would be pretty rare), and placed in a foster home, then returned home *will not* develop attachment disorder. I'm not saying it wouldn't be terrible for the child and family, but that scenario almost never happens -- as many posters have pointed out, it takes a lot to get a kid removed, even from a clearly abusive situation.
I realize it's not that likely that a child will be removed, my friends who've been called in still have their kids -- but some of these families have been through HELL.

Quote:
It is this kind of hysterical propaganda against foster care and cps intervention that makes me want to scream.
You want to scream because I don't have the detailed knowledge of reactive detachment disorder that you do, not being a foster parent myself? What I've shared is "hysterical propaganda?"

If my attachment-parented children, at any age, were taken from me and forced to spend time in foster-care -- I have no doubt there'd be extensive damage to their psyches. Granted, it may not qualify as "reactive detachment disorder" -- but it'd still be damage, damage they'd never have had if they'd simply been allowed to stay in their own home.

You can call me hysterical if you want -- but I want to scream whenever someone says it's acceptable to take this kind of risk -- and even implies that risking the few is necessary to protect the many.

Quote:
Yes there are f'ups working in the field of social work and the judiciary system. Yes, there are some crappy foster parents, and some really abusive ones.

But really, almost everyone involved in this system is trying to *help* children and families.
Now, if we can just take this statement, and help all who work in the child-protection system (or who feel a burden for children) to see that the SAME is true of parents: some are f'ups, and crappy and abusive --

But really, almost all parents love their children and want the best for them. If we'd ALL start having the same trust in the predominant goodness of parents, that some of you are saying we should have in the predominant goodness of CPS --

Well, maybe we'd be more predisposed to believe the best about parents, and reserve the calls, and interventions, for the criminally abusive f'ups.
post #205 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flor View Post
Don't the police just call CPS if children are involved?
That's been my experience, but I don't know if that is everywhere.

Also, oddly enough, around her at least, drug use/possesion/selling by the parent is not "reportable" to CPS unless it leads to neglect or abuse.
Yes. In any circumstance where a child is in need of an alternative placement, CPS is called by the police. It could be as simple as a single mom being in a car accident and being knocked unconscious. The police can gather info from an older child about who the kids could go stay with, but if mom can't give her verbal consent for the kids to be released to this other person, then CPS must be notified, take custody of the kids and place them with a family member.
In cases where the child is being abused or neglected and the parent is being arrested, two separate investigations will take place. One by the police to determine criminal charges, and the second by CPS to determine if a dependency should be filed and if prental rights should be restricted or eliminated. So you can call the police if you wish, but CPS will still be involved. It is not the police departments responsibility, nor do they have the resources or funding, to place children in other homes. They do not have the legal authority to do that. Only CPS can do that.

Namaste,

Michelle
post #206 of 251
mammal_mama,

I know this is very, very emotional for you and other posters. Me too.

Way up thread I posted a link to the US fed government statistics on outcomes in child welfare. One thing of huge note in that data is the immense difference between jurisdictions. Some jurisdictions are abysmal; others do pretty well. The problem with us all sharing online is that what actually occured 5000 miles away feels like it happened next door, and when you add that to what actually did happen in your neighbourhood, the extent of the problem seems much greater.

It's an entirely imperfect system, in large part because humans are evaluating and judging risk. And the information is biased by the teller and the listener. Also, any abuse or neglect typically goes on beyond closed doors and so isn't always easy to verify. I think a first step is to ensure that child welfare specialists are trained and members of a professional body to whom they are accountable (ie social workers). I think that what the US feds are doing by counting outcomes gives professionals and legislators more information on which to make decisions, but they've only been doing this since 2000 and systems are slow to move/change.

I have a number of concerns about your notion of a criminal justice response. I only have to look at the history of rape prosecutions and domestic violence approaches. It would also require a huge investment in justice services. I'm also not convinced that all police departments are any more above reproach than all child welfare systems. There would also still need to be support systems, and whoever runs these is accountable. With that accountability comes a desire to control and manage risk, and this would inevitably lead to changes in the way police handled CP. Right now, the police know that ultimately it's CPS who will take the fall if it goes wrong.

I entirely agree that a pretty good yardstick of whether or not you should call CPS is whether it would warrant a call to police - otherwise I think it's being pretty cavalier with someone else's privacy. "Look sees" by CPS are intrusive and horrifying, even if they only check in one time. I don't think we should be so quick to judge other families. I also try to be that mom who offers a warm smile, or a 'been there, done that' sympathetic remark to a parent who's struggling with a cranky kid. It's not my role to judge every detail of what someone else is doing, unless a child is at clear risk (safety, injury, food).
post #207 of 251
I voted don't call on these type of cases, but reading all of this has got me thinking about the damage mental & emotional abuse can cause in a vulnerable child, or that verbal abuse may also have a physical abuse component out of public view.

So, I am wondering at what point verbal abuse it a reportable offence. "You fucking brat! Get the hell over here" might not be something that would have me on the phone. A smile, an offer of help might be thoughtful, a comment on how crazy little kids can make us, said in an as non- accusatory way as possible, could take some pressure off the parent for the moment and benefit the child. I imagine in rare cases this interaction might further embarass or upset the parent. We don't know for absolute sure.

How about, "You fucking little whore". Or what about, "You fucking little cunt, I am going to beat your ass so bad when we get home" ? Parental hubris? Would you feel comfortable letting that go? Woudl you think maybe it's an aunt or babysitter saying these things and that the parent ought to know? Is avoiding an embarrassing visit from CPS wirth the spiritual, emotional (or physical ) life of a child?

I guess I would have more confidence in the 'basic goodness' of crappy or stressed parenting if so parents weren't murdering and raping their offspring so frequently. (Or videotaping them in dog fights).
post #208 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
I really get the impression the people who'd call CPS (about a mom yelling in public), feel so superior to the stressed-out, yelling mom that they'd never DREAM of identifying with her to the point of saying, "I've been there, too."
: However, without attacking the OP-- and hoping the OP hears me-- I remember she identifies herself as a "new mom." I remember very well when I had a first baby who had not even reached the toddler stage yet. I had mothering instinct enough for twelve women but *not enough experience* <--- (that's the critical point) to have humility and genuine, nonjudgmental compassion for other mothers. I remember having been told that when I had a child, I would finally understand my mother. I spent about the first four years of my son's life feeling that that was a complete joke. If anything, I felt angrier than ever at my mother because I believed I was a far superior mother to her, and I couldn't reconcile why she had allowed herself to be so mediocre.

In retrospect-- and this is something I think is going on with the OP-- I needed to prove to myself that I was a good mom, and one way to validate this was to do a lot of things that were the opposite of what my mother did. I could say, there, my mother never made her own organic baby food, but today I did, and that makes me feel good inside and, on the sliding scale inside my mind, it places me higher than my own mother. I'm not defending that as showing great depth of character-- I'm saying, I admit it, I think that way sometimes and I know I'm not the only one. I believe the OP is truly concerned about these children, but I also think it's possible that seeing those things as possibly-reportable validates to her that she is not THAT kind of mother. I can't blame her at all IF this is the case, because I might have felt the same way when I was a new mother. So I would say, no, I wouldn't report those things, but I wouldn't attack her for her line of thinking.

To feel like "I've been there too," you need to have actually had experiences where your kid was the screamer in the grocery store-- where you grabbed your preschooler by his collar in Target and threatened to make him very, very sorry if he doesn't stop bleeping whining by the count of three-- where you got so preoccupied talking to your friends at a party that your baby climbed into the swimming pool and had to be returned by your neighbor's older child who fortunately is more on-the-ball than you are. I've known very few mothers who possessed much humility before their child turned three. I certainly wasn't one of them.

-Rebecca
post #209 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by gus'smama View Post
Quote:
I have a friend who does foster-care, so I've learned a few things about detachment disorder. Apparently, any child who has her relationship with her primary caregiver(s) disrupted in the first 3 years of life, is at risk for developing this disorder.
Sort of. No, not really.

It is called Reactive attachment disorder.

It is a result of *multiple* changes in caregiver during childhood, or, more commonly, a result of living with abusive, neglectful, and/or inconsistent caregiver(s)

A child who is living with non-abusive parents, who are wrongly accused of something, and the child is wrongly removed while the situation is investigated (to get this far would be pretty rare), and placed in a foster home, then returned home *will not* develop attachment disorder. I'm not saying it wouldn't be terrible for the child and family, but that scenario almost never happens -- as many posters have pointed out, it takes a lot to get a kid removed, even from a clearly abusive situation.

It is this kind of hysterical propaganda against foster care and cps intervention that makes me want to scream.


Yes there are f'ups working in the field of social work and the judiciary system. Yes, there are some crappy foster parents, and some really abusive ones.

But really, almost everyone involved in this system is trying to *help* children and families.
I must disagree with this.

If an infant is taken from its non abusive mother and put into foster care as a result of a call to CPS, corruption of the system, whatever the case may be for that situation... that child very well could end up with an attachment disorder. It might not be Reactive Attachment disorder, as there are a range of disorders under this spectrum.

Reactive Attachment Disorder can also be caused by many other things including hospitalizations as an infant, undiagnosed chronic pain, early separation from the mother, multiple caregivers, abusive or neglectful parents, frequent moves or placements, maternal addiction, maternal depression, traumatic experiences, lack of attunment with mother, or young and inexperienced mothers with a lack of parenting skills.

Children in the foster care system as an average have a minimum of four placements, with some children moving much more than that. Many of them do end up with an attachment disorder of some sort. Given that the foster care placements are rarely short term. And that short term by definition can be months.. it not something that happens rarely. In fact, its quite common. Reactive Attachment disorder is not as common, but it is a reality that children in foster care, institutionalized care, or orphanages have a higher incidence of any form of attachment disorder.

UUMom, some very normal looking families on the outside have horrific lives behind closed doors. Its not just the crappy or stressed parents that rape, abuse and beat their children. Its the very normal ones that do as well. Stereotyping is rarely useful.

A visit from CPS isn't "embarrassing." Its downright horrifying. Embarrassing I could deal with. Permanently scarring my family and causing emotional and psychological damage because some busybody decided to impose their own warped judgment on my family, I have an issue with.
post #210 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikes_becky View Post

To feel like "I've been there too," you need to have actually had experiences where your kid was the screamer in the grocery store-- where you grabbed your preschooler by his collar in Target and threatened to make him very, very sorry if he doesn't stop bleeping whining by the count of three-- where you got so preoccupied talking to your friends at a party that your baby climbed into the swimming pool and had to be returned by your neighbor's older child who fortunately is more on-the-ball than you are. I've known very few mothers who possessed much humility before their child turned three. I certainly wasn't one of them.

-Rebecca

I could not agree more. I feel motherhood had humbled me- in many more ways than just parenting. My kids are 6 and 3, and when my second was born, it was like a learning process that started. I realized I AM a good mother and have no need to prove it to anyone but myself and my children.
post #211 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUMom View Post
I voted don't call on these type of cases, but reading all of this has got me thinking about the damage mental & emotional abuse can cause in a vulnerable child, or that verbal abuse may also have a physical abuse component out of public view.
What does that have to do with anything? I've known plenty of kids with parents who looked like perfect angels when they were out in public...and they were being beaten at home. Maybe we should just call CPS on every parent who's out in public, because something might be going on "behind closed doors".

I'm sorry, but this whole thing about what people are doing in the privacy of their homes is creepy. We don't know, and we can't tell who's beating their kids by overhearing someone call their child a "fucking brat".
post #212 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by joensally View Post
I entirely agree that a pretty good yardstick of whether or not you should call CPS is whether it would warrant a call to police - otherwise I think it's being pretty cavalier with someone else's privacy. "Look sees" by CPS are intrusive and horrifying, even if they only check in one time. I don't think we should be so quick to judge other families. I also try to be that mom who offers a warm smile, or a 'been there, done that' sympathetic remark to a parent who's struggling with a cranky kid. It's not my role to judge every detail of what someone else is doing, unless a child is at clear risk (safety, injury, food).
Yes, I see your point that totally turning child protection over to the police might not be any better, or any less corrupt, than what's in place now. But your idea that something should only be reportable to CPS if it would also be reportable to police -- that's a good idea.

I've never heard of police even being interested in a messy house -- whereas a pp mentioned a CPS worker wanting to come back to recheck her home because there were toys and blankets on the floor, and dishes in the sink. I see this as a real violation of privacy.

So, maybe I don't mean it should all be turned over to police -- I just mean CPS needs to follow police standards as to what they consider reportable, what kinds of calls they follow up on. Limit their intrusive investigations to actual cases of suspected criminal behavior: beating, sexual abuse, severe neglect and deprivation.

I'm not saying it's all cut-and-dry. Sometimes angry neighbors will fabricate stories of beatings or other severe abuse, and those calls still have to be investigated. But a beating will show signs of impact; also many forms of sexual abuse can be substantiated with DNA. And neglect bears its own physical signs as well. There's no reason it has to take months and months, with a child languishing in foster care, to figure out if a beating, rape, or nutritional deprivation actually took place. These should all be obvious pretty quickly with physical examinations. (Yes, I say languishing: not as any insult to foster parents, but to emphasize that being uprooted from their families is a grievous thing for children.)

In any case where children can be examined without having to be separated from their parents, this should be done. I think one of the reasons my friends who were investigated, were so reluctant to let their kids be interviewed, was that they thought it might very likely involve their kids being taken away from them for who knows how long -- a very frightening thing for small children.

I understand that, where a child needs to be questioned, there's concern the child won't feel safe telling the truth with the (possibly abusive) parent listening nearby. But for physical examinations -- there's no reason an examiner can't see whatever s/he needs to see while still letting the parents be there. I've actually heard of cases where the children are put in a vehicle and taken to the doctor's office while the parents are left behind. That seems so wrong, so isolating for the children.

And also, in my friends' case, there was no reason the children "needed" to be interviewed, as the only thing my friend was "suspect" for was letting her children play in their own yard.
post #213 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
I understand that, where a child needs to be questioned, there's concern the child won't feel safe telling the truth with the (possibly abusive) parent listening nearby. But for physical examinations -- there's no reason an examiner can't see whatever s/he needs to see while still letting the parents be there. I've actually heard of cases where the children are put in a vehicle and taken to the doctor's office while the parents are left behind. That seems so wrong, so isolating for the children.
I was sexually molested by my father when I was 9. I give no props to CPS because they didn't catch the abuse at all. I came forward with it.

Still, CPS took me kicking and screaming and forced me into stirrups at the doctors office.. physically held me down while I cried for my grandmother, and allowed me to be violated against my will with the largest Q-tip I had ever seen. They refused to allow my grandmother (who raised me) to come with me at all. There were never any allegations against her whatsoever, they just wanted me to be "a big girl" they said. And do it alone.

The trauma of being separated from my grandmother, and raped by the doctor caused me to shut down completely. I later refused to take the stand to testify against my father and he walked away with no charges against him. CPS interviews, interference, and their insistence at keeping me away from the only emotional support I had allowed my father to go free.

I always thought as I grew up and got a new perspective on things I'd think differently but I don't. CPS being involved and the hell they put me through was far worse than the sexual abuse by my father ever was. If I had to go through it again, I would have kept my mouth shut.

And thats pretty sad.
post #214 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
What does that have to do with anything? I've known plenty of kids with parents who looked like perfect angels when they were out in public...and they were being beaten at home. Maybe we should just call CPS on every parent who's out in public, because something might be going on "behind closed doors".

I'm sorry, but this whole thing about what people are doing in the privacy of their homes is creepy. We don't know, and we can't tell who's beating their kids by overhearing someone call their child a "fucking brat".
Yes, one of my classmates in college was seriously bugged by the fact that child protection workers currently have no way of knowing what's "going on behind closed doors." She felt the inability to really see into each home, was a severe handicap to being able to protect and rescue children from abuse.

I don't know what kind of childhood she had (I honestly had no desire to get to know her too well), but it was my first awareness that there are actual people who think it'd be A Good Thing to have surveillance cameras in every room of every residence, kind of like "Big Brother" in that eerie movie "1984." Yikes!
post #215 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nature View Post
Still, CPS took me kicking and screaming and forced me into stirrups at the doctors office.. physically held me down while I cried for my grandmother, and allowed me to be violated against my will with the largest Q-tip I had ever seen. They refused to allow my grandmother (who raised me) to come with me at all. There were never any allegations against her whatsoever, they just wanted me to be "a big girl" they said. And do it alone.

The trauma of being separated from my grandmother, and raped by the doctor caused me to shut down completely. I later refused to take the stand to testify against my father and he walked away with no charges against him. CPS interviews, interference, and their insistence at keeping me away from the only emotional support I had allowed my father to go free.
Nature, I'm so sorry that the agency you turned to for support, turned on you and violated your trust so horribly. I wish I could turn back the clock and make them get your grandmother.

So much of what I hear, makes me think that many "child protection" workers are not as concerned about protecting children as they are about dominating and asserting their "top dog" position over everyone they can.
post #216 of 251
mammal_mama, I'm sorry if my tone was a bit harsh in my last post -- what I meant was about 'hysterical propaganda' was directed at so much of what I read on this board (not just this post) where people seem to think attachment disorder is as easy to catch as the common cold. Kids can go through some pretty awful trauma w/o developing RAD -- things have to be pretty consistently awful for RAD to develop. A child who develops an attachment (secure or insecure) to any caregiver (parent, foster parent, grandparent, daycare worker etc) as an infant, has developed the brain patterns for what healthy attachment is, and will be able to transfer that attachment to a new caregiver if neccessary.

I am also not trying to deny or downplay anyones bad experiences w/ CPS -- I know they happen. I also know they really are the exception not the rule. I'd love to give examples, but then I'd be violating the confidentiality of the families I've worked with -- my username is not anonymous enough, and there are people I know IRL on MDC.

Back to the example in the OP though. When my fk's go back to live with their mom, there will be a period of time when they are still under the supervison of the department, possibly still even in state custody, but "placed" with their mother. If she were swearing at them like that in a parking lot, it *would* mean that she likely hasn't changed other aspects of her "parenting" as well. I doubt that a call about her swearing at them would get the kids removed again, but in an open case, it would get some closer supervision and possibly a new round of supports from the parent educator.

That is what *I* mean when I say we don't know the whole story, I'm not talking about "oooh, what goes on behind closed doors".
post #217 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
What does that have to do with anything? I've known plenty of kids with parents who looked like perfect angels when they were out in public...and they were being beaten at home. Maybe we should just call CPS on every parent who's out in public, because something might be going on "behind closed doors".

I'm sorry, but this whole thing about what people are doing in the privacy of their homes is creepy. We don't know, and we can't tell who's beating their kids by overhearing someone call their child a "fucking brat".
So your answer to my question is that you wouldn't call, no matter what was being said to the child. I should have done a poll. If I knew how that amazing technology worked. :
post #218 of 251
gus'smama, Thanks for clarifying!

I do realize there's a need for foster-homes. My friend has adopted some children through the foster-care system, and I know before this happened there was lots of working with the birth-moms to see if there was ANY way they were interested enough to try to parent their children.

My friend thinks it's best if the children can retain relationships with their birth-moms, and even as she fell in love with the kids (especially the one she raised from like a day old), she remained open to the possibility that they weren't hers to keep, and she really wanted what was best for them, and for them to get to be with their birth moms if possible. (When I say she especially fell in love with the one she had from birth, I don't mean she loves the others less -- but this is the one who's totally bonded with her: it's like a gift that she gets to have one who's totally hers, when all the others have varying degrees of reactive detachment disorder.)

I have tons of respect for people like you and my friend, who let these little ones into your hearts before even knowing if they'll really become yours. I don't blame foster parents for the ways some CPS workers treat parents like my friend, and the other parents who've shared on this board about their experiences of being called in.

See, with the children my friend adopted, CPS got involved because of clear, physical evidence of some really horrible things going on. It wasn't a case of some b*tchy neighbor calling in because of a tantruming child, messy house, child playing in yard, or stressed-out parent. That's why I don't see the connection when people say, "Well, if you're not willing to report every case of parenting that differs from what you'd do -- that's tantamount to saying you're willing to leave brutally abused and neglected children right where they are."

There's absolutely no connection at all.
post #219 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amris View Post
I agree with those who are telling you to mind your own business.

What the world needs, very badly, is even more people who don't give a crap. There just aren't enough of those!
Well, yes. Especially since it was reported by one person in this thread that being raped by dad was less traumatic than CPS help.

I wish there was a way reliable and annoymous way to find out if this is true of many incest victims who were adied by CPS. (Not those children who were never taken out of the situation).
post #220 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUMom View Post
I guess I would have more confidence in the 'basic goodness' of crappy or stressed parenting if so parents weren't murdering and raping their offspring so frequently. (Or videotaping them in dog fights).
UUMom, I wanted to review this previous comment of yours in response to your more recent comment, that you wish we could find out if "many" incest victims felt they were raped and violated by CPS, when they turned to them for help.

Your implication seemed to be (or is it just MY interpretation?) that if only a very small percentage of incest victims had an experience similar to that of Nature's -- people should have more confidence in the "basic goodness" of most CPS workers -- they shouldn't "suspect" and mistrust everyone in the system just because of a few crappy workers.

Well, now I'm wishing we had all kinds of statistics at our disposal -- such as, what percentage of parents actually murder and rape their offspring -- or videotape them in dog fights? Even better, what percentage of parents who EVER stoop so low as to scream and cuss at their children while out in public, eventually go on to murder, rape, and videotape their children in dog fights?

And, are the parents who sometimes act like jerks in public ANY more likely to commit these crimes against their children once they get them "behind closed doors," than parents who act like the loving, understanding moms and dads we all aspire to be? I say this because I've often heard about incestuous dads, or abusive husbands, that "nobody could believe" would ever do the horrible things their children and wives said they did -- they were just such nice guys and didn't seem like the "type" at all.

If, as I believe, the vast majority of parents (even the ones who scream and cuss in parking lots, and even the ones who seem "too good to be true") NEVER go on to commit any heinous crimes against their children, and actually LOVE their children -- does this mean it's okay to start trusting in the "basic goodness" of most parents, and give stressed-out parents the benefit of the doubt, rather than having the number to CPS programmed into our cell phones, and pen and paper at the ready, for taking down license #'s wherever we go?

And, I repeat, refusing to be trigger-happy doesn't mean we're willing to "look the other way" when we see criminal behavior against ANYone, especially a child.

I just refuse to believe that in order to protect children, there have to be "casualties," and some wrongly accused parents (and their children) have to be sacrificed --

and I say they're being sacrificed even if the children are never taken out of the home, if they're put through a lot of unnecessary stress like my friends, and some others here, have been.

It's never fair to say we'll sacrifice the few for the good of the many. Every person, and every family, matters.
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