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when would you call CPS? - Page 12

post #221 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikes_becky View Post
: However, without attacking the OP-- and hoping the OP hears me-- I remember she identifies herself as a "new mom." I remember very well when I had a first baby who had not even reached the toddler stage yet. I had mothering instinct enough for twelve women but *not enough experience* <--- (that's the critical point) to have humility and genuine, nonjudgmental compassion for other mothers. I remember having been told that when I had a child, I would finally understand my mother. I spent about the first four years of my son's life feeling that that was a complete joke. If anything, I felt angrier than ever at my mother because I believed I was a far superior mother to her, and I couldn't reconcile why she had allowed herself to be so mediocre.

In retrospect-- and this is something I think is going on with the OP-- I needed to prove to myself that I was a good mom, and one way to validate this was to do a lot of things that were the opposite of what my mother did. I could say, there, my mother never made her own organic baby food, but today I did, and that makes me feel good inside and, on the sliding scale inside my mind, it places me higher than my own mother. I'm not defending that as showing great depth of character-- I'm saying, I admit it, I think that way sometimes and I know I'm not the only one. I believe the OP is truly concerned about these children, but I also think it's possible that seeing those things as possibly-reportable validates to her that she is not THAT kind of mother. I can't blame her at all IF this is the case, because I might have felt the same way when I was a new mother. So I would say, no, I wouldn't report those things, but I wouldn't attack her for her line of thinking.

To feel like "I've been there too," you need to have actually had experiences where your kid was the screamer in the grocery store-- where you grabbed your preschooler by his collar in Target and threatened to make him very, very sorry if he doesn't stop bleeping whining by the count of three-- where you got so preoccupied talking to your friends at a party that your baby climbed into the swimming pool and had to be returned by your neighbor's older child who fortunately is more on-the-ball than you are. I've known very few mothers who possessed much humility before their child turned three. I certainly wasn't one of them.

-Rebecca

Wow, that was perfect. Well said.
post #222 of 251
I don't speak in riddles, mammal mama. I asked a question. Anonymity in answering would only be to respect the privacy (if one wanted privacy) for those who might answer. I know it is not a question that could be asked or answered here to show anything 'scientifcally'. Polls are not science, in other words. Still, I am curious. I know each person in this world as their own story to tell. I respect that.

You've no need to read anything into my question: there are no layers to my question.
post #223 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUMom View Post
You've no need to read anything into my question: there are no layers to my question.
Sorry: I wasn't trying to accuse you of saying things you weren't.

You'd previously said you might "have more confidence in the 'basic goodness' of crappy or stressed parenting if so parents" --

(do I read that as "some parents," or "so many parents?") --

"weren't murdering and raping their offspring so frequently. (or videotaping them in dog fights)."

Since NO ONE has EVER said, in this thread, that there's "basic goodness" in "crappy or stressed parenting" -- I tried to make sense of what you'd said, by "reading into" your statement the idea that you were having a hard time trusting in the "basic goodness" of parents who you saw parenting in a crappy or stressed manner --

because some (or so many?) parents go on to murder, rape, or videotape their children in dog fights.

Rather than adding layers to what YOU were saying -- I was adding MY OWN layer by saying it would be good to get actual statistics about what percentage of parents are actually murdering, raping, or videotaping their children in dog fights.

Just as there are probably many victims of incest who turn to CPS for help, and are actually helped -- I think there are also many individuals who sometimes got screamed or cussed at by their parents, who nevertheless made it all the way to adulthood without having their parents murder or rape them, or videotape them in dog fights.

Meaning, maybe it would be easier for everyone to trust in the basic goodness of parents, and give them the benefit of the doubt when we see stressed or crappy (but not criminal) behavior, if we realized the truth that the overwhelming majority of parents who sometimes act like jerks in public, aren't committing heinous acts of child abuse the moment they get their children alone "behind closed doors."
post #224 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUMom View Post
So your answer to my question is that you wouldn't call, no matter what was being said to the child. I should have done a poll. If I knew how that amazing technology worked. :
I have no idea whether I'd call over something being said to a child. I know I'd have to think long and hard before putting a child through what I've seen them go through with CPS...including the child who was, like Nature, forced to undergo a violating physical by himself. I don't assume that calling CPS will make a child's situation worse - but I don't assume it won't, either.
post #225 of 251
--Meaning, maybe it would be easier for everyone to trust in the basic goodness of parents, and give them the benefit of the doubt when we see stressed or crappy (but not criminal) behavior, if we realized the truth that the overwhelming majority of parents who sometimes act like jerks in public, aren't committing heinous acts of child abuse the moment they get their children alone "behind closed doors."--

I don;t think people are really trying to understand each other here. I think there are a couple of folks hwo hate CPS (for some very good reasons) and are projecting others' concern about children going unheard are saying they want to put vdieo cameras in every house. It's one thing to hate CPS as an institution, it's another thing to ridicule people's concern for children.

I just don't feel this is a thoughtful or sharing discussion at this point (and I even voted don't call in the poll) so I am going to unsub. Only saying so you're not looking for replies from me. I appreciate you might want to continue with the discussion and I didn't want to leave without an explaniation of why I wasn't continuing to participate.
post #226 of 251
[QUOTE=aiea;8083217]Hi all,
A friend of a friend told me that she puts earplugs in at night so that she can't hear her sons crying unless it's "loud enough". Her sons are 1 and 2.5 years old. She also goes to the backyard at night with her husband to relax, leaving the kids in their bedroom to cry it out, play, do whatever, until they are asleep. She told me the purpose of going outside is to not hear the boys. So sad, it breaks my heart. I DO think I should contact authorities on this one.[QUOTE]

yes this one forsure the second one nope that is nothing more then venting and there is nuff of us that cuss that dont make us bad
post #227 of 251
I don't quite understand why the "party blower" icon's at the top of the page; I couldn't edit it out, either.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I think EVERYone concerned about child abuse would like to install survielance cameras in every home. I also think it's uncommon for people to program the # to CPS into their cellphones, or be waiting with pen at the ready to take down license #'s of any parents they see cussing in parking lots or struggling with car-seats.

I shared about my weird School of Social Work classmate, and her desire for the government to be able to see into every home -- to increase peoples' awareness that there really ARE people who'd like to subject EVERY FAMILY to this kind of scrutiny. So, the next time you see some mom acting like a total *ss in the grocery store parking lot, and you're tempted to speculate that, if she'll act like such an *ss in public, she must be a gazillion times worse with her kids "behind closed doors" -- just remember we all love our privacy: it might make you more hesitant about violating hers.

Also, I'm NOT devoid of concern for "other people's kids" (though I DO view them as "other people's kids" and not as "our (or the state's) kids"). I'm an AP momma who's horrified that any momma would let her baby CIO. I also hate seeing babies spending a great part of their days in plastic baby holders, with bottles propped in their mouths. I sling my babies, nurse on cue, and am very happy to be "a human pacifier."

I see many detached parenting practices as downright bad parenting, and abusive toward children. That said, I'm aware there are child protection workers who think it's "molestation" to breastfeed a child longer than 3 years, or to have a family bed. There are some who think we play "Russian Roulette" with our children's health by homebirthing and not immunizing.

That's why I say, focus on the criminal aspect of what you see. Anything less than criminal behavior is NOT worth an invasion of privacy. I just think that's how we'd ALL like others to "do unto us."
post #228 of 251
Name-calling and cursing at your children is verbal abuse, and it is criminal.
post #229 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
Name-calling and cursing at your children is verbal abuse,
yes...

Quote:
and it is criminal.
I highly doubt that. In an of itself, no occasional outburst of cussing or name calling is going to be considered a criminal matter in this country.
post #230 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by pigpokey View Post
yes...



I highly doubt that. In an of itself, no occasional outburst of cussing or name calling is going to be considered a criminal matter in this country.
No, it's not . . .

I've not read this entire thread so apologies if I'm repeating something that's already been said, but I think there is a big difference between less-than-optimal parenting or, even, bad parenting and actual abuse.

I wish every parent were loving, caring, and AP-oriented. Realistically, that's not going to happen. I know I, myself, fail all the time in acheiving my parenting goals. But there is a difference between not being a great parent, or even a particularly good parent, and being a criminally negligent and/or abusive parent.

There is so much actual, life-threatening abuse going on every single day (just read about a man putting his two month daughter in the microwave. She's now in critical condition) that I think it behooves us to get ahold of our indignation when we see what falls under the category of "less than optimal" (yelling at kids), "bad" (CIO, in the opinion of most APers) and actual abuse (systematically hitting, not feeding, abandoning, etc.)
post #231 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Individuation View Post
Yes, basically that. Thanks, BSD.
Thank you! I have personally seen just how much it can disrupt a family for so-called "well meaning" busy bodies to go making accusations just because someone is choosing parenting methods that don't fit their ideal. Would you want someone calling cps and telling them they feel you are a danger to your kids because you choose to make them eat some vegetables instead of letting them eat nothing but cheese? I had someone jump all over me for this once! everyone should have the right to make their own choices. By the way, what the heck do you think cps is going to do if they did agree with you? I'll tell you what they will do, they will come into that house, tell the kids that they have bad parents, scare the bejeses out of everyone, tell the parents they don't know the first thing about their own kids, and do 1 of 2 things: they will continue to disrupt and check in and take away an semblance peace in that home, or they will take the kids and stick them in a foster home where I can guarantee you much worse will happen to them than just being cursed at or left to cry for an hour. Go tend to your own business! I will shut up now because I have probably already crossed the line to very rude and obscene is just around the bend.
post #232 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by DariusMom View Post
I wish every parent were loving, caring, and AP-oriented. Realistically, that's not going to happen. I know I, myself, fail all the time in acheiving my parenting goals. But there is a difference between not being a great parent, or even a particularly good parent, and being a criminally negligent and/or abusive parent.
Exaxctly!
post #233 of 251
Verbal abuse is criminal. That some people in the system would rather take children away from their parents because there are dishes in the sink than because their parents are calling them names doesn't change that. Verbal abuse is considered child abuse. Some people don't think it's that bad, but verbal abuse of a child is still against the law just like physical abuse. I was physically and verbally abused as a child, and the damage of the verbal abuse has long outlived that of the physical abuse. It's like a lot of things that are illegal but aren't enforced that well, because people charged with enforcing them don't think they're that bad compared to other things they have to deal with.
post #234 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
Verbal abuse is criminal. That some people in the system would rather take children away from their parents because there are dishes in the sink than because their parents are calling them names doesn't change that. Verbal abuse is considered child abuse. Some people don't think it's that bad, but verbal abuse of a child is still against the law just like physical abuse. I was physically and verbally abused as a child, and the damage of the verbal abuse has long outlived that of the physical abuse. It's like a lot of things that are illegal but aren't enforced that well, because people charged with enforcing them don't think they're that bad compared to other things they have to deal with.
I also was verbally and physically abused as a child, and you are right that the effects of verbal abuse are long lasting, but I AM able to put it behind me. The awful things that were said to me as a child DO NOT define what I am today unless I let them. Physical abuse can. Scars and flashbacks are much harder to put behind you than someone's crappy opinion.

They are not the same and for a behavior to qualify as verbal abuse it must be more than a single outburst after a tantrum in a parking lot. You can't name every parent who says "get in the f***ing car!" a verbal abuser! That would be a horrible understatement of everything that is suffered by those who have been truly abused. It may be rude, innappropriate, disrespectful and very unbecoming, but that is NOT abuse. Abuse is when you are told over and over that your opinion doesn't matter, that you are worthless, that you are a whore for kissing your boyfriend, that no one cares about you and never will, and many other forms of brutal, unkind, senseless degradation of your self worth, and security. You can curse and not be an abuser, you can also never curse and deliver some of the cruelest messages known to man. There is a difference between being unkind and crossing the line to where your unkind behavior is truly a hinderance to the well-being and human rights of another person.
post #235 of 251
Everyone is different. We don't all get over it easily. We're all affected in different ways by it. I happen to think its just as abusive to scream "Get in the f'ing car you f'ing brat" as it is to tell your daughter she's a b****.
post #236 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amris View Post
I agree with those who are telling you to mind your own business.

What the world needs, very badly, is even more people who don't give a crap. There just aren't enough of those!

Perhaps well intentioned neighbors or onlookers who "give a crap" should offer some kind of actual help rather than just thowing up their hands and calling the authorities. There's a lot of grey area between not giving a crap and putting a possibly perfectly good family in jeopardy. Don't you think?
post #237 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen View Post
Perhaps well intentioned neighbors or onlookers who "give a crap" should offer some kind of actual help rather than just thowing up their hands and calling the authorities. There's a lot of grey area between not giving a crap and putting a possibly perfectly good family in jeopardy. Don't you think?
Yes.
post #238 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
Everyone is different. We don't all get over it easily. We're all affected in different ways by it. I happen to think its just as abusive to scream "Get in the f'ing car you f'ing brat" as it is to tell your daughter she's a b****.
I actually agree with this. However, I don't agree that every parent who screams "Get in the f'ing car, you f'ing brat" is necessarily a verbally abusive parent. Do you really want to see children put through the hell that can be a CPS investigation simply because someone overheard their mother on a really, really bad day? There's a huge difference between a parent who sometimes crosses the line when they're over-stressed, and the parent who has a pattern of abuse.
post #239 of 251
But you can't know whether it was a really bad day or if it happens all the time just from observing. Some would thus do nothing, and some would do something. It depends on what you think is the better option personally. Having been verbally abused I might have a different opinion on the matter than you, in that situation, about which would be better, you know?
post #240 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
I actually agree with this. However, I don't agree that every parent who screams "Get in the f'ing car, you f'ing brat" is necessarily a verbally abusive parent. Do you really want to see children put through the hell that can be a CPS investigation simply because someone overheard their mother on a really, really bad day? There's a huge difference between a parent who sometimes crosses the line when they're over-stressed, and the parent who has a pattern of abuse.
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