Dissobediance dosnt quite cover this...HELP - Page 2

[papayapetunia]

He's testing you. He's been abandoned so many times that it's too hard to trust you. How far will he have to push until you abandon him? That's what he's wondering. And the fact that he pushes you at all says that he already is starting to trust you and that scares the crap out of him. I know this because I've been through this. My mother was killed when I was 2 1/2, and my father was a drug addict, so I went into foster care and was adopted at age 8. I was very hard to handle, and I was afraid of abandonment. I actually was sent to a military-type school, although it was religious. It was abandonment all over again, but my parents and I have since worked through these issues.

Anyway, I would be concerned about the animals thing. I never went to see a psychologist, and consider myself to be affected, but fine. But he may have reactive attachment disorder. The animals thing certainly fits the bill. He may have been so neglected that he needs therapy.

In any case, school would be the least of my worries. I would think that deschooling might be a mistake in this case, because it may feel like neglect. I would definitely be flexible and let him help to plan activities and areas of learning. Get to know what his interests are, what he's good at. Make him feel interesting and worthwhile.

[hsmamato2]

In addition, I agree with others,find some counseling that specializes in helping foster a child that's been hurt- unschool for a solid year,and then see what happens-
but also- if you have material things on which you place a high value- you need to set your home up to keep him away from what he could destroy. getting a free recliner for him is a good start-- I noticed that everything he's ruined,you have a $$$ value set to it. Not picking,just noticing,b/c I believe this happens frequently with kids like this, they do mess with things they shouldn't,and things get destroyed. That's a big reason to find counseling for all of you. I don't know if you were mentally prepared for what was going to happen to your home,bringing back a child who does need a lot of patience and love.
You're right,this isn't about discipline,he needs you so badly,and this is how it manifests. You're doing a great thing- and I hope you find what you need....

[chfriend]

I agree that disobedience has nothing to do with what's going on. It's not going to get better quickly either, as this child has been neglected, abused and bounced around. School seems like the least of the issues here. He's in tremendous pain.

I don't see any other solution besides a loving, devoted counselor.

[raleigh_mom]

Originally Posted by Ravin

Counseling has its place. If you're not interested in a psychaiatrist and medicating him into a stupor (perfectly understandable!), that's no reason not to seek out a psychologist, perhaps one that specializes in attachment issues, certainly one that at least partly focuses on behavioral approaches.

I would also recommend contacting your local Foster Parent Association and signing up for some parenting classes to help you deal with this boy who has been so severely neglected, abused, and repeatedly abandoned.

And I ditto the deschooling. If you look at education as a long-term thing, with the ultimate goal of producing productive adults capable of happiness as well as prosperity, then it's obvious that the academics right now are irrelevant for this little boy, you need to start socializing him.

Also, you should seriously consider pursuing getting his mother's parental rights severed and you and your DH adopting him. Then, if something happens to your husband at least he'll still have you, kwim?

He's eight years old. Sending him off to military school isn't going to help him develop a normal human ability to attach and empathize after what he's been through. It'll just make things worse.

:

We just finished our foster parenting class yesterday and I highly recommend it. Contact your local social services. You need legal guardianship and help finding resources.

[Earth Angel]

Originally Posted by Ravin

Counseling has its place. If you're not interested in a psychaiatrist and medicating him into a stupor (perfectly understandable!), that's no reason not to seek out a psychologist, perhaps one that specializes in attachment issues, certainly one that at least partly focuses on behavioral approaches.

Totally agree!
And, just to note, if the potential of someone resorting to meds are one of the deterrants to seeking counseling, you can get help from a licensed social worker. They are very skilled at counseling and diagnosing, but are even more skilled at working through things with OUT prescriptions....because they aren't authorized to prescribe meds. Many have private offices....there are also licensed family therapists and other licensed counselors.....what they are called depends on your state...I just wanted you to know that psychologists/psychiatrists aren't the only option.

Hoping to hear how you all are doing s

[Arduinna]

The child has lost his mother and other families members he is close with, why wouldn't you consider counseling? He doesn't care because caring hurts too much, he has had some much loss in his life. Getting him good counseling is one of the most important thing you can do to protect his future. The last thing this child needs is to be shipped off to military school.

ITA with the other posts about deschooling him, and a psychologist not a psychiatrist that will drug him is the way to go. I'd also read the gentle discipline forum here and make a commitment to no corporal punishment.

[Kylix]

Originally Posted by Earth Angel

Totally agree!
And, just to note, if the potential of someone resorting to meds are one of the deterrants to seeking counseling, you can get help from a licensed social worker. They are very skilled at counseling and diagnosing, but are even more skilled at working through things with OUT prescriptions....because they aren't authorized to prescribe meds. Many have private offices....there are also licensed family therapists and other licensed counselors.....what they are called depends on your state...I just wanted you to know that psychologists/psychiatrists aren't the only option.

Hoping to hear how you all are doing s

Psychologists do NOT prescribe meds. They are also not licensed to prescribe medication. Only psychiatrists who go to medical school can prescribe meds. Just want to clear up that misunderstanding.

I am in training to become a psychologist and I would recommend a psychologist over a social worker as psychologists are trained in empirically supported treatments. There are many psychologists that work with attachment disorders and use cognitive behavioral therapies--which I think your ds could benefit from.

Please take your grandson to a psychologist (or other counselor). It is great
that you and your husband are so committed to this boy and you are right to be concerned but you can't do this alone. He has so much going on his heart. He needs some extra help. Good luck!

Kylix

[leanne0425]

PLease dont think think that we are opposed to a therapsit we absolutely are not, we tried really hard to, whilst he was at PS to get him the help we knew he needed, he completely refused to talk to them, he constantly asked for me, until they relented and asked me to attend one of the sessions thinking it would help him to ' open up', it didn;t work, he buried his head in my lap and refused to talk. I am his step grandma but he told me just today that along with his papa( grandad) I am the closest he has ever known as family, believe me we are all really close, I may not be his biological grandma but I love this little one as my own, and it hurts me so much to see the pain he is in. I am well aware that everything he is doing is normal, he's testing us to see if we will abandon him too...not going to happen.

I have no idea what his mom said to him, but I do know, through him, that he dosen't trust anyone in authoriity this includes a therapist, he really does have some strange ideas, like he dosen't completley trust the police and when I asked him why? all he would say is 'cos' mom told me, I can't get anything more out of him at all.

We have the love and trust of this child, but we need to convince him that no matter what, we will never hurt him, AND we will NEVER abandon him, it dosent' matter what he does we WILL be there for him, this is where we have the problem, Also we absolutetly MUST convice him that he is important, he has a very low self esteem,constantly telling us that he dosen't matter, I''m working on this right now, taking it one day at a time

The sad thing is, like most of these children that have been abused and neglected.....no matter what, they still love their Mom, I completely understand this, my main aim right now is to convince him that I am not his mom and in no way could ever take her place, indeed I don't want to do that, I will always be there to help him, I will always be there to support him, BUT I am not his mom.
After everything he has been through we have made it a point of never criticising his mom, we do point out that she made some really bad choices, I he will answer then, " well that's why I live here, I know my Mom cant look after me, but I also know that I can spend some time with her when she is home and I am happy with that"

He really does love his Mom but given the choice right now, he would choose to stay with us, he descibes his mom as being not responsisbly for anything, even herself when she gets drunk.

All of this really hurts me, no child his age should have any knowledge of any kind of drug, nor any alchohol abuse of any kind, I belive our children should be protected form the worst of everything, unfortunately J has seen the' dark side' of things and there is nothing I can do about that. he knows he has our love, to be honest I have never known a 9yr old cuddle up on the sofa quite like J, he clings to you all the time, and he wont let me out of his sight.

Thanks for all the advice, belive me we appreciate it Pschiciatric help is still a possibily for us, however we really want him to relax much more before we go that way, I can see us trying this again in a couple of years, but truly we need to wait until he accepts that he matters as a person, something he dosen't believe at the moment.

[bwylde]

From personal experience, sometimes it takes a lot of time to open up talking to a therapist. As a child I went for years before I started talking about the abuse I endured (my parents really had no clue what was going on with me). You may think it's doing no good if he's not talking, but it may just take time, more time than grownups are often willing to give. Maybe let him deschool for a while and try again. He's been through a lot and there are many walls to smash through. My thoughts are with you

[Earth Angel]

Originally Posted by Kylix

Psychologists do NOT prescribe meds. They are also not licensed to prescribe medication. Only psychiatrists who go to medical school can prescribe meds. Just want to clear up that misunderstanding.

I am in training to become a psychologist and I would recommend a psychologist over a social worker as psychologists are trained in empirically supported treatments. There are many psychologists that work with attachment disorders and use cognitive behavioral therapies--which I think your ds could benefit from.

Please take your grandson to a psychologist (or other counselor). It is great
that you and your husband are so committed to this boy and you are right to be concerned but you can't do this alone. He has so much going on his heart. He needs some extra help. Good luck!

Kylix

Oh My goodness....I'm so sorry....It was late last night and I didn't get to double check my post, and I made that error ....thank you for clearing that up!!

[Pinky Tuscadero]

I keep thinking of Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. No learning will take place until his needs for hunger, safety, etc are met. Here's a good explanation:
http://chiron.valdosta.edu/whuitt/co...ys/maslow.html

HTH!

[Earth Angel]

leane0245, it sounds like you and pappa have a really good understanding of who your grandson is right now, and what he needs. Your time and your love are the best things he can have right now.

As far as not talking with a therapist.....is there someone in your area that does art therapy....and is you grandson interested in art at all....art therapy might be another way to go. Also, as someone else said you may see different results after being out of school, or maybe if the whole family went in together (you, grandson and pappa). Although I understand that he isn't interested, beginning a realtionship with a mental health professional in some form, would probably be a positive thing, even if it was for just you. You have taken on a huge responsibility....and even though you seem so understanding of him, that doesn't make it any less frustrating/scary/upsetting for you to take all of this on. I know it would be very difficult for me.

As far as his schooling. What are his interests....his own genuine, interests? If he says "nothing", maybe you and he can work together to discover what those interests may be, however small, and begin to explore those. From there, that may open up the space for more interests to bubble up, and you and he can explore all these amazing things, together.

[UUMom]

When you write HELP in your header, what do you mean? Knowing what you want would help me form some sort of response.

[rainymorning]

what about play therapy? don't some of them actually come to your home to play with a child?

i think that he refused to talk while hiding in your lap was a good sign, a sign that he trusted you. maybe he doesn't have to talk, he just needs to be there, with someone who cares, and he will start opening up.

[Rivka5]

I don't think the goal of therapy should be for your grandson to separate from you and talk to the therapist - instead, I'd recommend some kind of family therapy, where you and your husband can learn strategies for dealing with his behavior and helping him with his feelings at home.

With young children, I think the value of one-on-one sessions with a therapist is overrated (I am a psychologist, BTW). Rather than concentrating on getting him into a proper therapeutic environment one hour a week, it's much better to get some help making sure that the other 167 hours a week provide the right kind of support and structure.

[lauradbg]

leanne0425,

It really does sound like you love him so much, and want him to understand it too. I think the fact that he WANTS to cuddle with you says so much. A 9 year old boy who has not received love yet is brave enough to reach out to you like that, risking even more rejection, by cuddling on your lap ultimately has so much going for him. His heart is there! He has not been hardened by his experience so much that he is cold or aloof.

Cuddle him! Cuddle him BEFORE he asks for it. Give him hugs. Rub his hair. Watch movies together and draw out his ideas about it. Listen 2 times as much as you talk--maybe 3 times. Find out what he's curious about and follow that up with a trip to the library. Let him check out as many books as he wants.

Do you have to point out to him that you're not his Mom? He knows that. It's OK to just be very affectionate without qualifying it to him, isn't it? He needs love. Just continue to give it to him in obvious ways.

Is his eating OK now? Is he gaining weight? Are you able to get nutrient dense foods into him? So much of mood and energy is affected by the quality of food.

I agree with pps that it is still a good idea to continue to see a therapist of some sort. Find one where you can sit with him in the session. Can you imagine how scary the prospect is of talking about how your mother mistreated you?! How raw that would feel to open that up and let it all spill out. Especially to a stranger--even a caring stranger who's good at listening and finding ways to feel OK with your own feelings.

If he's hurting animals (or was he just TALKING about the idea?), he NEEDS to see someone on an ongoing basis. But, you make it as safe for him to open up as you can. He goes to the session, but gets to cuddle with you the entire time. You stay in there with him.

Shop around. There must be therapists who would see the value in you being there to help him feel safe with his feelings and talking about them with a stranger.

He is so lucky to have you and your husband. Thank goodness you're there.

[Kirsten]

This isn't a board I use (saw under "new posts") but I agree that I wouldn't worry about school stuff at all right now. I know your plan is to wait a couple of years and try therapy again - but I really hope that you reconsider. Yes, love him up with plenty of physical affection. But I do agree with another poster that I wouldn't continue to point out that you aren't his mom. It is the truth, but it just seems hurtful to point it out. I know you don't mean it that way.

I would find a psychologist who understands the severity of your dgs's background, and is willing to put in the time it will take (a long time) to get dgs to open up. I wouldn't consider therapy a failure because dgs didn't talk. How many times did you go? It may take many, many months of going before any "real" progress is made.

My parents both died when I was in junior high. My sister was in elementary. My brother was 4 and 6. He went into therapy at 6. He didn't bond with the therapist right at first. He didn't really want to go. But they kept taking him, and he did benefit greatly from it in the long run. It takes a long time to build that trust; I hope you find a really great therapist and put in the time - starting very soon - to let them start the process of helping him to work through ALL he has been through.

I know this must be very hard for you. It is wonderful that you and your dh are taking care of him. I do think that a support group for grandparents raising their grandkids might be helpful for you too. Just to be heard by people who understand seems like it would be very supportive.

[paganmum]

: If he needs you like that then family counseling might be the better way to go. He wouldn't need to talk but he could see by example what it's like through you and his grandpa.

Cuddles, cuddles, cuddles and more cuddles. If he is still unharmed enough that he reaches out for that contact then give it to him before he reaches out. A passing tussle of the hair with a quiet word about how he's looking good, growing well, what have you. His own belongings and private space if needed. If possible a tv, video game, radio or computer game? My 7yo has just started getting into computer and video games he asks us to play with him unlike his other friends his age who push their parents away. Kudos to you for getting him away from the bullying. I would just give him down time and lots of trips to the library, aquarium, zoo, museum etc. Help him develop and/or discover (depending on what the previous damage is) his interests. If he is half as abused as it sounds he might not have a clue as to what to be interested in or how.
My little brother loved taking things apart when he was that age. My parents started giving him things that either didn't work right or had stopped working and let him take them apart. My brother had a small assortment of tools (two different screw drivers and a pair of pliers that I remember) and a work are that my dad made for him.
Does he have a bike? Has he ever had a bike, skateboard, scooter or anything like that? Would you or his grandpa be able to go on short bike rides (like around the block) with him. Or at least sit outside where you can watch him ride around?

Have you looked for a local homeschool group, or possibly some unschoolers in your area so that he has other kids his age to play with and who are also being homeschooled to hang out with. Just a word of warning, we are finding with my oldest that it's starting to get hard for him to do things with the kids who go to school as they are getting really stuck in their school oriented social circles and that the other homeschool families are way more open to the point that the kids love to play no matter what the age. We are lucky there is another homeschool family with kids roughly the same ages as mine on the street, their kids have been having the same issues with the other PS kids on the street.

You wouldn't believe how much kids learn from helping around the house, helping cook and helping garden. It's amazing! Maybe you could get him some seeds and either a corner of the yard or some pots for the porch or patio and help him with some herbs, flowers or what have you. Plus working together helps to foster that love and closeness he needs right now. He'd be working with you helping you but you wouldn't be forcing or demanding him to work, know what I mean?

I would work to foster good behaviors and habits by example and by making sure that he has the right choices to pick from. If he's anything like my boy (and my little brother or any boy that I've ever known) he's a walking stomach. Make sure that the healthiest foods possible are available to him 24/7 so that he can grab what he wants to eat when he needs it.

I'll post more if I can think of it. You boy isn't that much older then mine, so I've spent some time pondering this before I posted. (((HUGS))) to all of you.

[bellinismama]

I am going to second the play therapy! I know a play therapist and she deals with children who have gone through abuse and tragedy, but through their play and I believe the parents/ guardians are there and learn to use the play therapy for home too. It is more family than individual, because children need their family to help them through this.

Good luck, he is lucky to have you!

[sunanthem]

Aside from this child needing counseling, I would recommend looking into One Brain, 3 in one concepts and getting him a therapist, a massage therapist or other who does diffusions. Diffusions release emotional patterns we acquire from past negative emotional experiences at the age of cause, to release trauma and help repattern the brain. Here is a tad more info on One Brain, but I would google it to learn more;
"techniques for identifying and releasing negative emotional stress. The Behavioral Barometer is a unique roadmap of emotions for identifying exactly what a person wants and doesn't want on a specific issue. Visualization techniques and Eye Movements are safe, effective ways to clear stressful negative emotions. Muscle Testing is the most reliable form of biofeedback from the body as yet discovered by the healing arts." With diffusions, it is only muscle testing that the therapist can do on you while you hold his hand, which will really be muscle testing him. I just thought I'd mention it since it is a very powerful, non invasive tool to use in healing therapies, and not at all like counseling, he wont have to say anything. Good luck to you and your grandson, God Bless you for caring for this child. You are so important!