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Would you leave your child in a hotel room? - Page 6

post #101 of 262
I am a bit confused about something. I keep seeing people say they would step out of the room for a little while with the door locked and not open. It seems odd to me to emphasize that fact unless maybe you are implying the McCanns left the door open, although maybe I am reading that wrong. All the sources I have read have said that the McCanns locked the door, but the door was wide open when they got back because the abductor left out the front door after breaking in thorugh the window. So, has it been reported somewhere that the McCanns themselves left the door open or unlocked? If so, could you provide a link or at least the name of the source? Just curious for my own knowledge...not a challenge or anything.
post #102 of 262
It never would have occurred to me to leave a toddler by herself ANYWHERE- not at home, in a car, in a hotel room, in a park... I do feel for the parents, though. A very poor judgement call but they don't deserve to lose their precious baby. :sob

Riverscout- Thanks for your post. I didn't see the news but was kind of wondering how far they'd really gone. Confirms my suspicion that they didn't feel that they'd really gone far at all. Probably felt that they were just "in the yard".
post #103 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverscout View Post
I am a bit confused about something. I keep seeing people say they would step out of the room for a little while with the door locked and not open. It seems odd to me to emphasize that fact unless maybe you are implying the McCanns left the door open, although maybe I am reading that wrong. All the sources I have read have said that the McCanns locked the door, but the door was wide open when they got back because the abductor left out the front door after breaking in thorugh the window. So, has it been reported somewhere that the McCanns themselves left the door open or unlocked? If so, could you provide a link or at least the name of the source? Just curious for my own knowledge...not a challenge or anything.
When I read the orginal article, it said they left it cracked so they could pop in to check on them without the sound waking them.
post #104 of 262
I think a lot of people here don't know how stalking a child for abduction purposes works. They don't wait for an easy target- they choose children with a high value, cute kids, light kids. They then watch a family's habits for days or weeks, and as soon as the kid is away from the parents, they snatch her.

Some PPs have pointed out that this can happen anywhere, anytime, and it's right. It takes all of five seconds. They are pros, they have their car right there.

These parents might have made the stalkers' job easier, and it might have been possible to prevent. But anyone who has left her child in a room by herself, in the yard, in a car, for any more than three minutes, has risked it. Your two-year-old runs behind you, you don't turn around because you think your husband is right there, anyway you come to this park all the time, you laugh at the joke, you turn around, and your baby is gone.

The original article said the window had been jimmied open. The stalkers didn't need an open door- they probably assumed the door was locked, and anyway wouldn't have wanted to be seen walking through a lobby or in the light with the child. They probably needed cover from behind the window anyway. The door is not going to help you. This is such a tragedy.
post #105 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by EviesMom View Post
I'm going to presume that you're getting different posts mixed up, since I said I've left to get coffee and muffin while my MOTHER and DD were asleep in a hotel room. I'm the only one on the whole thread who said I've left to get coffee and muffins down the hall. And, I didn't say I blame Madeline's parents. I answered the OP question that at first I thought no, I'd never leave my child in a hotel room alone. Then upon further consideration I said I might have done it before, but I certainly wouldn't do it knowing what I know now.

I don't get the whole weird notion of blame. Are they "to blame?" How on Earth would I know? What difference would that make? Do I think it's fair she was taken? No. Do I think it's right? No. Are they responsible for her kidnapping? No. Might the outcome have been different if they'd made different choices? Yes, but so what?

I also said that they might have called attention to the fact that there was a child unprotected in the room by going back every half hour. (Again, I don't see that this is "blame.") I do kinda think a few minutes as opposed to a half hour is "safer" in that case. Just like I wouldn't handcuff a briefcase to my arm if I were carrying a lot of cash on the subway. It draws attention to the fact that there's something stealable.

I don't get the notion of blame here either which was kind of my point. And no, I wasn't getting different posts "mixed up" as in being confused, but I was simply refering to more than one post...a composite if you will...which is why I said "to those" as in more than one person. I was not just refering to you which is why I didn't quote you.

You were not the only one who said you left the room briefly for something like ice, coffee, juice, vending machine snack, trip to the car, or whatever and thought that was okay but what these parents did was questionable, although you may have been the only one who mentioned coffee AND a muffin. Your example just stuck in my head so I used it.

Also, while you said you left your mom in the room with your child, you also said you probably would have done the same thing without her there. In addition, I don't see where you said you wouldn't do it knowing what you know now. Good to know though.

Since this thread has come to the point of bickering about muffins, I am out. Peace.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EviesMom View Post
:

Especially in reference to a few hundred feet and eating dinner, at first I thought "they must be insane!" Then with the idea of 50 feet... I remembered that in a hotel in December, I woke up early, couldn't get back to sleep, and left my 2 year old asleep in bed while I went down the hall to get coffee and a muffin. Now, in that case, my mom was also asleep in the room, but I bet I would have done it anyway even if she hadn't been. I brought them back to the room, and was back within 5 minutes, but I couldn't see the hotel room door the whole time. I can see going down the hall for ice, or coffee, or whatever, seeming pretty safe when a child is sleeping and the door is locked.

I can't see being gone for 1/2 hour at a stretch though during a long dinner. I suspect that the predator knew where to find the girl either by stalking the family, or the parents called attention to the fact that there was an unprotected child in the room by going back to the room constantly during dinner.

If they had only been gone for 5 to 10 minutes and not for an extended period of time, I would figure someone had to be stalking the family. A predator isn't going to randomly break into rooms to see if he (or she) happens to find children. And if someone had broken into a whole string of rooms, that would probably have been reported too.
This is what you were yeah thating:

Quote:
I could see leaving my kids, with the door locked, long enough to go down the hall to get ice or a soda from the vending machines or something. I rarely stay at hotels with room service. But I can't imagine leaving long enough to have a meal in a resturant. No freakin' way.
post #106 of 262
No, I wouldn't.

My dd, almost exactly the same age, would wake up, find me not there and go search for me.
I do not want to attack the parents. What they are going through seems unlivable.
Like everyone else, I just dearly want this sweet baby returned to her parents.
post #107 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by mama2mygirl View Post
No, I wouldn't.

My dd, almost exactly the same age, would wake up, find me not there and go search for me.
I do not want to attack the parents. What they are going through seems unlivable.
Like everyone else, I just dearly want this sweet baby returned to her parents.
Yeah, that.
post #108 of 262
OMG!!! They left a child and her 2, 2 yr old sibs in a room while they had dinner!!! That is horribly selfish. She's 3!!! Sleeping or not, no child that age should be left alone EVER!

I've stayed at many hotels with my children (From 1 to now 4) and I've not left my children to even unload the van, they came with me in a single file line back and forth as I unloaded our bags.

No doubt it would have been easier to leave them in the room with the TV on, but I didn't think it was safe at all.

Even stupid behavior does not mean I don't feel sorry for this family, this is tragic and very sad. I do hope that she is recovered safely, however, like most child abductions -- they child is never returned in the same condition and often times not alive.

Our most precious gifts are our children and to think it is responsible to check on a 3 yr old and 2 2 yr old every 30 mintues while having dinner is flat out insane.
post #109 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by polihaupt View Post
I have a HUUUUUUUGE problem with that statement
Maybe you don't know this, but in countries like Denmark it is very common for parents to leave their babies sleeping outside in the pram while they go in the shops or cafe briefly. Saying that parents who do that are no connected to their own child and should know better is very judgemental and undermines the different culture and local situation.
To explain why leaving a baby outside in a pram seems disconnected to me -- I guess I should share my experience with my own babies. Both had an intensive need to be snuggled close to me; neither enjoyed the stroller 'til about age 2, when I tried it again 'cause it was getting too hard to wear them for long walks.

Even when they DID start liking it, it would never occur to me to feel safe leaving them outside while I shopped. And, in my experience, sleeping babies/children sometimes wake up sooner than expected and are frightened if they don't see Momma. So, even if I felt 100% safe leaving my sleeping child outside the store (and, as I said, I can't imagine ever feeling safe doing that) -- I still would never take the risk of her waking up, looking around, and seeing nothing but strangers. How scary!

It just doesn't seem "connected" to me to take either of those risks -- the risk of Baby being snatched or the risk of Baby waking and feeling abandoned.

There are some American practices that seem just as detached to me. For instance, I'm seen as the "oddball" by some at church because I won't drop my little ones off at the classroom door, and just let them cry and get used to being away from me. My children decide when they're ready to do some things separately from me, and I refuse to force the issue.

So I certainly don't see detached parenting as a just a "Danish" or "European" thing. It's just about everywhere I've been in this world. After hearing some refer to Madeleine's parents' choice as a "cultural" thing, my response was simply that we, as parents, have a responsibility to listen to our kids and not tune them out in order to follow the "norms" of society.

If you leave your child in a motel room (or in a pram outside a store), the risk of abduction is probably a lot smaller than the risk of your child waking up and being frightened without you.

To me, neither risk is acceptable.

That said, my heart still aches for Madeleine and her parents, and I hope she's all right and comes home soon. Just because I disagree with the parents' choice (they probably feel the same way now), and don't think it's excused by whatever the norms are in their social set, that doesn't mean I think they're totally detached and don't love their children. I'm sorry if I gave that impression.
post #110 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverscout View Post
The authorities in this case suspect the kidnapper was are part of an international pedophile ring and that this was a "to order" kidnapping. He was a pro working with other pros. .
omg.....I can not believe such a group even exists.....this is so horribly terrifying and disturbing and heartwrenching and hideous and sickening and I just want to vomit :
post #111 of 262
Yes it's truly hideous, am feeling same.
post #112 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnmama View Post
omg.....I can not believe such a group even exists.....this is so horribly terrifying and disturbing and heartwrenching and hideous and sickening and I just want to vomit :
Having grown up out side the US, I know this exist. I know it too well. In Latin America healthy babies and children are abducted for their organs! A young woman had her child statched out of his stroller in a local shopping area in 97, she was a runner and caught him and got her child back, the abductor unfortunately got away.

I went to visit my family in 99 and wore my ds1 at all times away from the house, he didn't like the sling at all, but I didn't give him a choice while where were there and he was 5 mo old. The house was completely barred, alarm system, and consentina wired at the top of the 7 foot wall the surrounded my parents' home. And yet even those measure are not a deterent to a thief.
post #113 of 262
No, I wouldn't leave DS alone in a hotel room, and I wouldn't let someone I didn't know babysit him either. I just would not be comfortable with either situation.

I feel bad for these UK parents and can't begin to imagine what they are going through, or what is happening to that poor little girl.
post #114 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutie Patootie View Post
They must be of the "CIO is okay group" because an ap parent could not fathom leaving their child alone, in a strange place to boot, while they are out having dinner...in the next room, or the next building over.
Well I am AP - to establish what I mean by that, I've worn my son since he was born, breastfeed on demand, co-sleep in a slightly modified for our comfort way (he sleeps the early part of the night), CLW, etc. - and as I said, my husband and I thought about something similar. We did have a baby monitor. But my son generally speaking sleeps deeply in his crib from when he goes down to about 12:30 or 1 am, at which point he wakes up and is brought into our bed to co-sleep the rest of the night. When we were on holiday he slept in a playpen and he loved it, I think because he liked the smaller space. He actually slept through 'til 3 am and then came in with us, every night but the first.

Part of being an AP parent is being tuned into your kids. My son loved the inn's rooms, esp. ours, he loved having us both playing all day, and after the first day he was really secure and happy there.

It was mostly just not having a pressing need to have a dinner alone, that made us decide to let it go. But really I don't know how you can say that no APer ever would consider that.
post #115 of 262
I wouldn't leave dd (4) and ds2 (almost 2) alone in a hotel room. This story is upsetting me even more than it normally would, as dd turned 4 on the 9th, and I know Maddie is almost exactly the same age. It's turning my guts inside out thinking about dd disappearing like this.

The parents made a bad decision, and it's one they'll regret for the rest of their lives, even if Maddie is found alive.

That said, I'm not going to say it was a selfish decision. I have no idea what factors came into play to make them decide to handle this the way they did. I don't know what the culture in that resort was like. I know it's easy to be lulled into a false sense of security, and this resort sounds very effective at that. I doubt if they really thought of the possible repercussions of leaving their children alone. I can't call it selfish, without knowing what they were thinking. IMO, they made a huge error of judgment, and they're paying a higher price for that error of judgment than anybody should ever have to pay.

As far as blame is concerned...I feel the blame lies solely on the sicko who stole Maddie.
post #116 of 262
I think a lot of people here read "hotel" and instantly envision a humongous American Ramada Inn. I've been to Italian hotels that are much "homier," more like a (very beautiful and elegant) B&B than like a gray American commodity inn.

This could totally happen to my children in my home. They sleep in a separate room, (technically on a separate floor!) they don't ordinarily wake in the night, and I rarely lock my doors.

Yes, it's a frightening thought, but... if something DID happen to my children, I'd hope the Cult of Good Motherhood would place the blame where it squarely belongs-- on the criminal.

Not try to parse out my "detached" parenting practices. : Because frankly, none of you know much about why we do it that way.
post #117 of 262
Well, I've had more time to think, and I'm realizing those of us who are judging the parents, are probably doing it as a sort of defense mechanism.

It's frightening to think something of this nature could happen to ANY of our children. True, I wouldn't leave my children alone in a motel room. But what about the times when my 7yo runs to the backyard to dig for worms, while I'm watching my 2yo in the front? True, we have a fence all around our property, but it's certainly not impassable.

How do we let our children have normal, healthy, adventurous childhoods -- and still ensure nothing bad can ever happen to them? How do we exercise constant vigilance without burdening and immobilizing our children with our fears?

It's so much easier to think, "I've got nothing to worry about, 'cause I'm a better parent than those parents." It's easier to think that only negligent parents have their little ones stolen.
post #118 of 262
I said that I wouldn't leave my kids (at that age) in a hotel room and it's true, I wouldn't have. It's just outside my comfort zone.

But what I didn't say is that I do not blame the parents for what happened. The one who is at fault is the person(s) who took the little girl from her room.
post #119 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunnmama View Post
I am not interested in blaming the parents either...what happened is horrible, but they didn't do anything horrible imo.....but the link said:

"Madeleine's parents - both doctors - had been having a meal in a tapas restaurant a few hundred yards from the apartment"

Even if that was 300 yards (a few), that is 3 football fields away. That is much farther than most of us normally leave our children, I would think. But maybe the distance estimate was wrong?


Haven`t read any further than this. Here in Norway the distance estimate has been 40 meters, since the first time I read about this story. I am not very good at translating yards to meters, but I am pretty sure 40 meters is a heck of a lot shorter than 300 yards?
post #120 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by GranoLLLy-girl View Post
You asked what were they thinking--and I am wondering (not to single out this post, or anything like that) if perhaps this is a cultural thing? I know that in some countries it is perfectly normal to leave your baby totally out in the open (meaning outdoors, not out naked or anything like that) in a stroller asleep OUTSIDE a department store while mum goes in to shop.
Perhaps this is something that would be considered 'normal'? In the US--forget it, kids (even at age 13) can get abducted from small towns as they hop off of a school bus (in reference to the two boys who were recently rescued from an abductor).
Regardless it's heartbreaking.


Here in Norway it`s ¨pretty normal to see sleeping babies (in strollers) outside cafè`s when the parents are inside. They usually sit very close to the door and/or thw window, though.
I have never done this, but it`s considered both pretty normal and safe here.
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