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Would you leave your child in a hotel room? - Page 10

post #181 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
Either they didn't think of that, or they did think of it and did it anyway. Either way it was stupid. What parent WOULD think of that and then chose to do that anyway? Either they weren't thinking, or they didn't care. How could any rational person think it would be perfectly acceptable to leave your child in a hotel room where they could strangle themselves with a telephone cord or where an employee with a key could get in? They couldn't see or hear them, and they weren't a moment away to try to intervene should danger appear. Either they didn't think of what could happen, or they didn't care.
Actually, since the perp entered the room through the UNLOCKED patio doors, I'm inclined to think that leaving the patio door of a ground floor apartment unlocked was more of a problem. He probably watched the mother go back and forth to check on the kids, and saw she left the doors unlocked, timed her, and knew when to strike.

I read that this family and their friends at the resort left the doors unlocked through fear of fire. I can't help wondering how they thought a 3 yr old and 2 yr old twins would open patio doors and escape all by themselves in case of fire.
post #182 of 262
Just a note- it's not illegal to leave a kid in the car for a couple of minutes in my state, either. I think it would be, if I left the keys in and the car running (which I never do), but that's illegal even without kids (due to car thiefs.)

I just want to say that crime statistics can be meaningless. I would never leave my kids alone like that, even if I lived in a place with zero murder, rape, or robbery in the last 50 years, because all it takes is one pervert or (criminally) crazy person to change that.
post #183 of 262
I would never even occur to me to go out to dinner while my child slept in a hotel room.

I have left my ds sleeping while waiting out front for my older son to get off of the bus though so maybe it is the samething
post #184 of 262
I agree with you, Choli. If the door had been locked it might not have happened, but he could have broken the glass just the same. And still, anything could have happened. An employee with a key could have come in, or the kids could have got hurt by themselves. There's just so many things that could happen to children whose parents aren't looking. Someone with a gun could have kidnapped them anywhere, but that wasn't the only danger to leaving them unsupervised.
post #185 of 262
Moonfire, have you been outside the United States?
post #186 of 262
Yeah, their choice was outside my frame-of-reference, too. If my 2yo happens to be asleep in the bed at dinnertime, we'll bring our plates upstairs to eat in our office/rec-room right next to the bedroom so she won't feel scared and alone when she wakes up --

That is, if she happens to come unlatched. Often she nurses the whole time; if I'm hungry enough I manage to eat my food in bed, while I'm lying there nursing her. If I get up in the night to blog or something, she's often more restless with me not being there, so I usually have to hurry back. It's hard to imagine assuming toddlers would stay safely asleep while parents were off in a restaurant, just stepping in to check every half-hour ... just way outside my frame-of-reference, my experience with my own little ones as an AP mama.

Although we don't leave our children alone in the car, ever -- I guess it's easier to understand doing it, because I know so many people who have: who even unload the groceries and put them away while Baby sleeps in her car-seat, 'cause they know she'll wake up the minute they move her.

That's where the sling comes in handy -- and even handier is having a husband who does all the grocery-shopping. I personally haven't had to deal with a napping baby, and a need to get groceries to the fridge at the same time, 'cause dh takes care of the groceries for me. If I had to do it by myself, I'd wear her in the sling and just do it: if her nap's shortened, that usually means she'll go down earlier at night -- so, though I don't go out of the way to wake a baby/toddler, neither do I see it as the end of the world if a nap gets disrupted.

In contrast, some people I know seem to think their babies' naptimes are sacrosanct. If they wake up early, they're "off" for the day, or something.
post #187 of 262
No, but even if I had, I'd still know that anything could happen to 4 and 2 year old children when left in a hotel room unsupervised with the patio door unlocked and would still not do it.

mammal_mama, if I wake my son from a nap too early, chances are he will not go back to sleep, and he will be whiny and irritable all day, throwing frequent temper tantrums, being very disagreeable, and even harder to get to sleep when bedtime comes.
post #188 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
And no, it is NOT illegal to leave a child in a car unsupervised for a few moments, not in my state
You are correct...my bad....it's not illegal....but they can charge you with neglect (depending on the age of your child -- I believe your child is under the age of three) if someone happens to call it in and they will investigate the call...just for your information.

If you are unsure of that just call the police department for your state, they can clarify it for you.

It could have happened with them in the suite but at least with them in the suite, they could have tried to do something about it and would have maybe had a description of the guy and so on. That's the difference.[/QUOTE]

Unless they were sleeping....you know Elizabeth Smart.....Polly Klauss (sp?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery
I don't care about the culture difference
Which may explain why you can't understand the other side of the equation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooonfirefaery
I'm not going to argue with you anymore. I don't have to defend my choice, because I don't believe it puts my son in harms way........
Bold mine.

I am just putting my opinion out there along with your opinion. I am guessing that the family had the exact same frame of mind. I am also guessing they are second guessing that frame of mind every second of every day their little girl is missing.

Your opinion that your son isn't in harms way doesn't translate into he is safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery
In any of those situations though I still have the chance to act, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. I wouldn't in a hotel room. We should take reasonable steps to prevent things from happening, but I don't think it's unreasonable to be 20 feet away for less than 5 minutes with my eyes on my car. Have a good day.
I am not failing to acknowledge anything you have said. I hear you. I disagree with you.

You don't feel it is unreasonable to be 20 feet away for less then 5 minutes with your eyes on your car....so be it. It doesn't make my opinion any less valid. I think it is irresponsible and neglectful to leave your child unsupervised in a car (locked or otherwise) at that age for any amount of time. I would absolutely call the police dept if I ever see it happen. I actually did when a parent left two young ones in their van while they ran into the store to get their pictures -- the photo studio is right at the door.
post #189 of 262
While it might seem like poor judgement on the parents part.. I just figured out that 50 yards = 150 feet (how far they were from the room)! My yard goes back like 300+ feet.. sooo does that mean, that I shouldn't go outside in my backyard if my daughter is sleeping in the front of the house?? Just makes ya wonder.. but I can't put the blame on them.. 150 feet isn't that far, and how could anyone imagine that someone would slip inside and take the girl!?

That said.. going back to the orignal thread question.. no, I wouldn't leave my daughter in a hotel room.. but if she was 3, and I hadn't heard this story.. and I was going to be within view of the room at all times.. I dunno!? Perhaps I would have. As far as the babysitters in the hotel, I barely let anyone I know personally watch her, so probably not.
post #190 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
No, but even if I had, I'd still know that anything could happen to 4 and 2 year old children when left in a hotel room unsupervised with the patio door unlocked and would still not do it.

I'm just sayin', go see the world a little and then tell me what "responsible" parents do or don't do.

I've seen a million kids left in cars with the engines on while the parents are running errands at banks, shops etc. Why? Because this is the far north, where temps regularly drop into the negative numbers. Nobody wants to drag a sleeping toddler out of his seat and into the blistering -40 cold. Talk about cruel and unusual child treatment!

It's fairly common here. MDC freaks out about it constantly, though.

So, yeah. Everything in its own cultural context.
post #191 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
Either they didn't think of that, or they did think of it and did it anyway. Either way it was stupid. What parent WOULD think of that and then chose to do that anyway? Either they weren't thinking, or they didn't care. How could any rational person think it would be perfectly acceptable to leave your child in a hotel room where they could strangle themselves with a telephone cord or where an employee with a key could get in? They couldn't see or hear them, and they weren't a moment away to try to intervene should danger appear. Either they didn't think of what could happen, or they didn't care.
Why would any rational person think it would be perfectly acceptable to leave thier child in a car unsupervised?

See how that works. It's a frame of mind....it's what the person assesses the risk factors to be. Period. Each person will assess a situation differently and act according to their view of the situation.

It is no different for this family than for one who leaves their child unsupervised in a vehicle.
post #192 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMR View Post
While it might seem like poor judgement on the parents part.. I just figured out that 50 yards = 150 feet (how far they were from the room)! My yard goes back like 300+ feet.. sooo does that mean, that I shouldn't go outside in my backyard if my daughter is sleeping in the front of the house?? Just makes ya wonder.. but I can't put the blame on them.. 150 feet isn't that far, and how could anyone imagine that someone would slip inside and take the girl!?
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post #193 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMR View Post
While it might seem like poor judgement on the parents part.. I just figured out that 50 yards = 150 feet (how far they were from the room)! My yard goes back like 300+ feet.. sooo does that mean, that I shouldn't go outside in my backyard if my daughter is sleeping in the front of the house?? Just makes ya wonder.. but I can't put the blame on them.. 150 feet isn't that far, and how could anyone imagine that someone would slip inside and take the girl!?
It's not the same as being in the backyard because I assume there aren't dozens of staffmembers former and current who have the master key to your house and access to your grounds. But with all I've read, it seems that if she was abducted, the person watched the family and patiently waited for the chance to take her. Child abductors tend to be very patient and wait for any lapse in parental attention to make their move. I still think it's possible that she woke up confused and went out to find her parents, maybe falling in a well or going down to the seaside and getting swept away. Remember baby Jessica back in the 80's who fell down a hole and got stuck but was rescued in the nick of time? If baby Jessica hadn't been found it would have seemed like she was abducted too. But I'm still hoping for a happy ending.
post #194 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
You are correct...my bad....it's not illegal....but they can charge you with neglect (depending on the age of your child -- I believe your child is under the age of three) if someone happens to call it in and they will investigate the call...just for your information.

If you are unsure of that just call the police department for your state, they can clarify it for you.

You don't feel it is unreasonable to be 20 feet away for less then 5 minutes with your eyes on your car....so be it. It doesn't make my opinion any less valid. I think it is irresponsible and neglectful to leave your child unsupervised in a car (locked or otherwise) at that age for any amount of time. I would absolutely call the police dept if I ever see it happen. I actually did when a parent left two young ones in their van while they ran into the store to get their pictures -- the photo studio is right at the door.
If you called the cops, because I left my kids locked in a car without extreme risks (unlocked, keys in ignition, heat), while I was feet away (in sight), I'd be mad, and the cops wouldn't do anything to me. I think that's a little bit extreme- and it's taken me 12 years of parenting to leave my 9 year old in the car with her siblings with a phone (my 12 year old is autistic, so he gets a different set of rules.) It would most certainly not be investigated as neglect.

I do have to say that I lived in Europe for six years, and was raised with a European (German) mother. Neither she nor I would have left our kids alone in a hotel like that...whether in Europe or the USA.
post #195 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrunchyCate View Post
If you called the cops, because I left my kids locked in a car without extreme risks (unlocked, keys in ignition, heat), while I was feet away (in sight), I'd be mad, and the cops wouldn't do anything to me. I think that's a little bit extreme- and it's taken me 12 years of parenting to leave my 9 year old in the car with her siblings with a phone (my 12 year old is autistic, so he gets a different set of rules.) It would most certainly not be investigated as neglect.
I wasn't directing this to you.....your child isn't under the age of 2. I would wage a guess that if you wouldn't leave your child in the car alone before nine, then you wouldn't have at less than 2.

According to the police depts. I contacted they would very much have the authority to investigate if a toddler was left unsupervised in a car.
post #196 of 262
No, never. You wouldn't leave your child home alone, and really, that's probably actually safer than leaving him/her in a hotel room. Hotels are full of traveling strangers you know nothing about, who could grab a child and drive right off, and nobody would think anything of it when seeing a person walking with a child in a hotel. You also have hotel housekeeping, maintenance men, etc... it's an incredibly selfish, stupid thing to do.
post #197 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini View Post

According to the police depts. I contacted they would very much have the authority to investigate if a toddler was left unsupervised in a car.
I think it probably depends on the length of time you were gone from the car and your proximity to it. If I leave my one year old strapped in the locked car without keys and run into the house to grab my purse I left right inside the door, I don't think they'd investigate, or if they did, it would be a short one. If I left my three year old in the car while I went to a nightclub (as a woman in Seattle just did), then yeah, that would be an investigation.

I am in software, and when we do risk management (as I am sure they do it in any other project), they commonly show a grid that shows 1- the likelihood of the risk happening, and 2- the severity of the consquences if that happened. Even if something has a pretty low likelihood of happening, if the risk is severe, it is "red." Once you figure that out, you decide whether you can mitigate that risk and how you do it. I guess I have always done a version of that informally. For instance, it is dangerous to drive down the freeway with the kids, but I mitigate that by driving as safely as I can and buying a vehicle with good safety ratings and features and buying high rated carseats. I am sure this family thought they were doing risk mitigation, by checking every half an hour, but they did a poor job of it.
post #198 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
Either they didn't think of what could happen, or they didn't care.

I find the accusation (and you're not the only one) that these parents didnt care absolutely, mind-blowingly astonishing.

The other word that is incredible to me is 'selfish'.

Plus other phrases like 'cant be bothered to take your children with you.'

Sheesh, the lack of compassion here astounds me, over and over.

Sure, imo they made a bad judgement. But a bad judgement does not equate to selfishness or a lack of caring about your child!

None of us know what happened to that family that evening. Had the children eaten earlier and fallen asleep? Was their nap schedule way off, meaning that there was no way they would manage a dinner out? It's a huge leap to take 'parents eating alone' to 'don't care about their children and can't be bothered with them'. Is it a crime to want a dinner out with your partner and no kids? (no I'm not saying I think it's wise to do so and leave the kids, but doing something unwise does not automatically equate selfishness or lack of caring. That is just such an ugly jump to make.)

What amazes me about this thread is that anyone would feel a need to publicly speak out and say, in a world forum, that they would never have made the decision this family made. I'm sure that millions of people around the world, when they read this story, thought "Yikes, bad judgement on the parents' part." But is there really a need to say it? When the child is out there, missing, and the parents are beside themselves with grief and worry? Why do any of you need to say it? Why did anyone need to ask that question in the first place?

I guess at least it wasn't a poll. Like, "Yes, I'd have left my child unattended in a hotel room" or "No, I'd never do that!" And I guess it could have had other options, like "I don't care about my children" or "I'm just too lazy" or "I'm selfish" and even "I'm too AP to do anything like that - this is the action of a clearly unattached, mainstream parent. Bet they did CIO too!"

Sheesh, I'm feeling sarcastic today, but honestly, this thread is getting to me.

I know, for sure, that at any time, something like this could happen to me. I lost my 4 yo for 15 minutes today. It totally freaked me out, and when she was found (hiding, as a 'trick'), I lost it and cried, which is totally out of character for me. I guess that if she'd really gone missing, all these people on the internet would be debating "Would you turn your back to take care of you 2 y/o and lose sight of your 4 y/o, or are you too totally perfect to ever make a mistake." (For those of you about to jump and tell me that yes, it is indeed negligent to lose your child for 15 minutes, she was in her preschool yard, and I did not leave the yard, I just got busy dealing with her brother. But heck, someone could have got her through the gate. She was hidden right by the gate, in some bushes, and it was only a parent searching outside in the parking lot who spotted her hiding there.)

Enough said. I'm just truly stunned by some of the posts here. Truly stunned. : : :
post #199 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
According to the police depts. I contacted they would very much have the authority to investigate if a toddler was left unsupervised in a car.

Yes, they have the authority, but in my experience, the one time I saw them called, they investigated, and treated it like one big waste of their time. In fact, the police officer told us he did the same thing when his toddler napped and that there was absolutely no problem. He couldn't have been nicer.

But that's a theme for another whole MDC thread that appears periodically - the Would You Ever Leave Your Child in a Car Thread, which usually turns ugly. :
post #200 of 262
I'm sure this has been stated in the previous 10 pages, but why would you leave a 4 year old for even 30 minutes at night and be so far away?! What if the child awoke and, in fear, searched out her parents and just wandered out by herself?! Obviously this isn't what happened in this case, but it just seems crazy to me.
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