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Would you leave your child in a hotel room? - Page 11

post #201 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Britishmum View Post
Is it a crime to want a dinner out with your partner and no kids?
Nope, but when you leave 3 kids under the age of 4 ALONE, it becomes a crime. It doesnt matter what time of day is is, or whether or not they are sleeping or awake, wether you check on them every 30 minutes or every 15, if you leave them alone, it is indeed a crime. I am so sorry for that family and that precious little girl. I pray she turns up unharmed. But her parents made a serious mistake. Putting your children in danger by neglect is a crime. Its a crime that could cost you your children, in more ways than one.
post #202 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Britishmum View Post
Yes, they have the authority, but in my experience, the one time I saw them called, they investigated, and treated it like one big waste of their time. In fact, the police officer told us he did the same thing when his toddler napped and that there was absolutely no problem. He couldn't have been nicer.
Must not have been in California. California Vehicle Code 15620: "A child 6 years old or less may not be left alone in a vehicle if the health or safety of the child is at risk, the engine is running, or the keys are in the ignition. The child must be supervised by someone at least age 12. The cost of a ticket could be more than $300."

So the driver might not have to go to court, but would definitely get a ticket.
post #203 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
mammal_mama, if I wake my son from a nap too early, chances are he will not go back to sleep, and he will be whiny and irritable all day, throwing frequent temper tantrums, being very disagreeable, and even harder to get to sleep when bedtime comes.
I didn't mean to cast doubt on parents who have this experience.

I guess what I was trying to communicate -- was how different everyone's frame of reference is. As a co-sleeping mama, I find my little ones frequently search for me in their sleep, and wake (or semi-wake) if they don't find me. So it's outside my frame-of-reference, and almost unbelievable, that many parents count on their children sleeping solidly, alone, for a set number of hours every night.

I don't doubt that there are these sound sleepers, it's just so different from my experience of my children (and myself). One of my friends closes the bedroom door when her baby naps, and is often busy downstairs (where she can't hear her baby if she cries).

She counts on her baby sleeping for a certain number of hours, and I guess usually she goes back up when it's time for her to wake up. But occasionally she's felt really bad because the whole family got busy in other parts of the house, then someone vaguely became aware of Baby crying and went to get her, and it was clear she was very stressed and had been crying for a while, alone, before anyone noticed.

I realize there's a lot less risk of kidnapping in your own home. But it's just unacceptable, to me, to take the risk that my child might wake up and need me, call for me, and not be able to find me. To me, it's unacceptable. To some of my friends, it's upsetting if it happens, but it's just "one of those things" that just "happens" sometimes.

I don't believe my more mainstream friends love their children any less than I love mine. So I don't believe this couple loves theirs any less, either. Or is any more selfish than me. Based on their knowledge and experience of their children, they made a decision they thought was sound at the time. It's not a decision I would have made -- just as I don't leave my children in cars -- but I don't doubt their love for their children.

I hope Maddy's home soon.
post #204 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Britishmum View Post
What amazes me about this thread is that anyone would feel a need to publicly speak out and say, in a world forum, that they would never have made the decision this family made. I'm sure that millions of people around the world, when they read this story, thought "Yikes, bad judgement on the parents' part." But is there really a need to say it? When the child is out there, missing, and the parents are beside themselves with grief and worry? Why do any of you need to say it? Why did anyone need to ask that question in the first place?
I don't think anyone would say any of this to the McCann's face, that would be mean and rude. But I think the reason people discuss this is that it terrifies all of us that it could happen to us. We find some way that we would have done things differently to make ourselves feel safer. That's how we comfort ourselves. It's also how the McCann's are probably torturing themselves. I feel so sorry for them.
post #205 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Britishmum View Post
I find the accusation (and you're not the only one) that these parents didnt care absolutely, mind-blowingly astonishing.

The other word that is incredible to me is 'selfish'.

Plus other phrases like 'cant be bothered to take your children with you.'

Sheesh, the lack of compassion here astounds me, over and over.

Sure, imo they made a bad judgement. But a bad judgement does not equate to selfishness or a lack of caring about your child!

None of us know what happened to that family that evening. Had the children eaten earlier and fallen asleep? Was their nap schedule way off, meaning that there was no way they would manage a dinner out? It's a huge leap to take 'parents eating alone' to 'don't care about their children and can't be bothered with them'. Is it a crime to want a dinner out with your partner and no kids? (no I'm not saying I think it's wise to do so and leave the kids, but doing something unwise does not automatically equate selfishness or lack of caring. That is just such an ugly jump to make.)

What amazes me about this thread is that anyone would feel a need to publicly speak out and say, in a world forum, that they would never have made the decision this family made. I'm sure that millions of people around the world, when they read this story, thought "Yikes, bad judgement on the parents' part." But is there really a need to say it? When the child is out there, missing, and the parents are beside themselves with grief and worry? Why do any of you need to say it? Why did anyone need to ask that question in the first place?

I guess at least it wasn't a poll. Like, "Yes, I'd have left my child unattended in a hotel room" or "No, I'd never do that!" And I guess it could have had other options, like "I don't care about my children" or "I'm just too lazy" or "I'm selfish" and even "I'm too AP to do anything like that - this is the action of a clearly unattached, mainstream parent. Bet they did CIO too!"

Sheesh, I'm feeling sarcastic today, but honestly, this thread is getting to me.

I know, for sure, that at any time, something like this could happen to me.

Enough said. I'm just truly stunned by some of the posts here. Truly stunned. : : :
Yeah, that. Every word. Enough already.
post #206 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamameeyah View Post
I don't think anyone would say any of this to the McCann's face, that would be mean and rude. But I think the reason people discuss this is that it terrifies all of us that it could happen to us. We find some way that we would have done things differently to make ourselves feel safer. That's how we comfort ourselves. It's also how the McCann's are probably torturing themselves. I feel so sorry for them.
I don't really feel sorry for them--I feel sorry for the little girl who is lost as a result of their judgment--this probably sounds harsh and I know that they are suffering for their poor choice, but so is a poor little 4 year old girl. I'm not judging the parents for their motives, their actions speak volumes alone.
post #207 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverscout View Post

Also, to those who blame the McCanns, but then say you yourself have left the room to go get coffee and a muffin or even went for quick trip to the car, and you think that is okay, I would think twice before you judge. The authorities in this case suspect the kidnapper was are part of an international pedophile ring and that this was a "to order" kidnapping. He was a pro working with other pros. All he needed was a few minutes to jimmy the window, snatch Madeleine, and leave out the front door. The authorites believe the kidnapper was stalking and waiting for his moment. If you were at a hotel and decided to go get your breakfast down the hall and around the corner every morning, that would have been a great chance for a stalker to have made their move on your child. Even better, while you were out at the car, they could have pulled the fire alarm denying you easy access back into the building and giving them a perfect chance to run from the building with a screaming child without anyone thinking anything of it.

I think we as parents make decision everyday that risk our kids lives. Some out of necessity, some out of selfishness, some out of just down right fatigue, and some because that is just life and we are human. Analizing how we can do better and learn form other's mistakes is a great idea and very constructive. I just don't see what the point is in assigning blame to these parents and making value judgements on their parenting style. Just because some parents practice AP/NFL does not protect them or their children from harm. I think that is really naive to believe so, but maybe it brings some people comfort.

If you have read this far, thank you and sorry for the novel. I don't expect anyone to change their mind. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and this is mine. Of course it could change based on any new information that comes to light. I just felt the need to put it out there.
Bolding mine.

Actually, riverscout, you did help me change my mind. You gave me some food for thought that helped me see the position these poor parents are in. Although I would have considered the scenario you presented, I think that is because I was living in the area when Polly Klause was kidnapped. Ever since then, I have been alert to this possibility. This made me shake my head in judgement when i first heard the story. Now, however, I can see where I was completely off base.

So, riverscout, thank you for the information.

I can only pray for that poor little girl. :
post #208 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamameeyah View Post
Must not have been in California. California Vehicle Code 15620: "A child 6 years old or less may not be left alone in a vehicle if the health or safety of the child is at risk, the engine is running, or the keys are in the ignition. The child must be supervised by someone at least age 12. The cost of a ticket could be more than $300."

So the driver might not have to go to court, but would definitely get a ticket.
Well, it was in California, and I can assure you that there was no warning, no ticket, just understanding.
post #209 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post
I don't really feel sorry for them--I feel sorry for the little girl who is lost as a result of their judgment--this probably sounds harsh and I know that they are suffering for their poor choice, but so is a poor little 4 year old girl. I'm not judging the parents for their motives, their actions speak volumes alone.
I am at a loss to imagine how anyone on this planet could not feel sorry for those poor parents.

Wow, just wow.

I am heartened though by the fact that some posters seem to have more compassion.

Prayers for that little girl, and for her poor family. And for all other parents who have lost children, one way or another.
post #210 of 262
THese past few months I have had to do a great deal of travelling. All with hotel stays.

No matter if I had to walk out to my car for "something really quick", I didn't do it without the children. If they were sleeping, I went without what I wanted to get. Just the thought of leaving them alone scared the hell out of me, even for 3 minutes tops.

My heart bleeds for the parents for the fear and horror that they must be experiencing, but not for nothing, what were they thinking to leave their child alone?
post #211 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Britishmum View Post
I am at a loss to imagine how anyone on this planet could not feel sorry for those poor parents.

Wow, just wow.

I am heartened though by the fact that some posters seem to have more compassion.

Prayers for that little girl, and for her poor family. And for all other parents who have lost children, one way or another.
Why would one pity them, though? This is what 'feeling sorry for' means to me. It means to dismiss their mistake as not bearing on the event. But there it is before us.
Compassion means to suffer with, and yes I can recognize the suffering that they are experiencing. A picture of a suffering parent for their lost child makes any parent suffer with them.

I can forgive them, I can understand that they are suffering and want to relieve that. Children go missing everyday, and as a parent this is a very saddening fact. But these parents are very lucky that the world cares, I guess--just think of all the children that don't get this kind of attention.

I'll save my pity for all the forgotten children and their parents who don't have J. K. Rowling and a website. I'll reserve my pity for the child lost.
post #212 of 262
If this couple wasn't white and if they weren't doctors I bet there'd be more people talking about their horrible judgement.
post #213 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post
I'll save my pity for all the forgotten children and their parents who don't have J. K. Rowling and a website. I'll reserve my pity for the child lost.
Maybe our difference is that I don't believe that pity or compassion have a finite quantity. I can feel profoundly sorry for each child and each parent, and each sibling, grandparent, aunt, uncle of a lost child, whether or not their parents have access to a website.
post #214 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by momma4fun View Post
If this couple wasn't white and if they weren't doctors I bet there'd be more people talking about their horrible judgement.
Oh, I think there are plenty of people doing that. Just read this thread, for starters.
post #215 of 262
I don't need to see the world to know what "responsible" parents do or don't do, to have my own opinion on responsibility, etc. That some parents are even less responsible doesn't mean this any more acceptable. What most of America thinks is responsible, I don't think is responsible. Isn't that true of most MDCers? :P

The police could investigate if I left my baby in the car, but I doubt anything would be done because my child was in the car for five minutes. They'd most likely show up at the gas station long after I'd left, or if they got there fast, they'd see I was only inside for like 5 minutes. They'd probably be much more alarmed if I left him in the car outside of a grocery store which I'd never ever do. Someone called the cops on me once because I went outside for a few minutes while my roommate's child was sleeping in his crib. He was alone for 5 minutes, and the cop said "No problem, it's when he's left alone for much longer than that that we see a problem." (I was 18 at the time and had never had a kid of my own and was told by my roommates to leave him alone, that it was okay for me to go outside. I later realized they were pretty irresponsible parents, but I didn't know back then: I trusted them because they were the parents.) The point: he was alone completely for a few minutes, and the police officer didn't feel that was a big deal at all. Now, I wouldn't repeat that, even though nothing came of it, even though the cop didn't feel it was a big deal, because I wouldn't find it responsible.

I have compassion for these parents, but that doesn't mean I excuse people who leave their very young children completely 100% unsupervised for long periods of time of their actions or absolve them of any wrong-doing. It's not their fault the kidnapping happened, and I feel terribly sorry for them for what they are going through. But it still was irresponsible IMO to leave them alone.
post #216 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmel23 View Post


I'll save my pity for all the forgotten children and their parents who don't have J. K. Rowling and a website. I'll reserve my pity for the child lost.
HOLY COW!!

Britishmum - I am with ya! The comments on this thread stun me beyond belief!
post #217 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by polihaupt View Post
HOLY COW!!

Britishmum - I am with ya! The comments on this thread stun me beyond belief!
yep . . . I said a similar thing to Britishmum a few pages back, as well. The thread just keeps going (and I guess I'm helping it go, for that matter) and the lack of compassion (no, it's not a finite emotion) and understanding is beyond belief.
post #218 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
I don't need to see the world to know what "responsible" parents do or don't do, to have my own opinion on responsibility, etc. That some parents are even less responsible doesn't mean this any more acceptable. What most of America thinks is responsible, I don't think is responsible. Isn't that true of most MDCers? :P
I really isn't about seeing the world to see what "responsible" parents do. It's about understanding your ways aren't the only ways. It's about the differences in how people view their environment. It's about the differences each culture hold.

The biggest problem is your opinion is based on your experiences and your culture. You have to be willing to look into other cultures to understand where they are coming from. If you are unwilling to do that, then you won't understand.

I would wage a guess that I am not the only one who feels leaving a toddler unsupervised in a vehicle is just as irresponsible as leaving a toddler unsupervised anywhere else. Your actions can be justified until the sun goes down, but in the end, it doesn't make a difference (IMO).
post #219 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Houdini View Post
I would wage a guess that I am not the only one who feels leaving a toddler unsupervised in a vehicle is just as irresponsible as leaving a toddler unsupervised anywhere else. Your actions can be justified until the sun goes down, but in the end, it doesn't make a difference (IMO).
no, you are not the only one.
post #220 of 262
As I commented in the News and Current Events thread, my gut reaction to this horrible tragedy is to feel anger with the parents that their gamble resulted in an innocent child suffering in a way that I can't even begin to imagine.

I know that that reaction upsets some people, and I'm sorry for that. It's not that I don't feel compassion for the parents. I do. But, when I think about what they did it really just makes me so angry that they took the chances they did just so they could have dinner.

And even if NOTHING happened to those kids, I think it's a really risky thing they did. Just if they woke up and didn't have the parents there or available for 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes seems horrible to me.

I would never express anything but my deepest condolences to the family. But, I do think it's appropriate to discuss these sorts of things away from them. I would not want to add to their grief or guilt, but I do feel like people are entitled to their reactions.

Just as people are entitled to their reactions to the person who took Maddie. Surely some people out there feel compassion for this abductor and would call for nothing but forgiveness and understanding of the probably awful things that brought him to this place. I think its fine to feel whatever, but to criticize others for not feeling that same way? I don't get that. To say that people whose gut reaction to him are less than compassionate have sunk to a lower level or that they shouldn't feel that way or express it--I dunno....if that's where you are with it, cool. But not everyone else is, you know?

Anyway, I hope she's found and isn't suffering somewhere. Bless everyone involved.
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