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Would you leave your child in a hotel room? - Page 5

post #81 of 262
I wouldn't, but that's neither here nor there in this case. I really feel for this family and that poor girl.

We're going on vacation in 2 weeks and this has given me & dp a lot to think about (not that we'd ever leave them in a hotel room, but it certainly is a reminder). I have 2 girls almost the same age as Madeleine and I just can't imagine. : I think I'm going to be even more protective than I already am when we're on vacation this time.

I really hope she is returned to her family alive & well.
post #82 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutie Patootie View Post
First off, the parents are obviously not of the ap/natural family living sort, at least in this aspect. They must be of the "CIO is okay group" because an ap parent could not fathom leaving their child alone, in a strange place to boot, while they are out having dinner...in the next room, or the next building over. Seriously, what was their frame of thought? They checked on the kids every 1/2 hour?! A 3yo and 2 babies? What if they woke up 1 minute after a 1/2 hour check. The parents were obviously okay with them crying alone in an unfamiliar place for at least 29 minutes or they wouldn't have left them there. So though I don't place blame on them for the person who took their little girl I do not have respect for the way they chose to parent their children in this aspect. It shows a great deal of selfishness, which is what I commonly think of people who allow their little ones to cry alone in a room afraid for a 1/2 hour.
Oh . . . in that case, since they're not AP, the parents definitely deserved what happened to them and their little daughter.
post #83 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmlp View Post
Come on. That is total semantics. Anyone could just as easily have called you neglectful for not having taken the bus or the train instead, just as anyone could say that the fault lies with the kidnapper and not the parents in this case. The entire population of continental Europe could point a collective finger at the United States, where apparently more children per year are killed in car accidents than anywhere else because the US has such a car crazy culture. My daughter rides in a car approximately twice a week. How often is the average American child in a car?

In addition, since when should parental decisions be made based on whose "fault" it will be when the child is hurt? Doesn't it make more sense to base the decision on the chances of the child getting hurt, period? And if the chances of your child being kidnapped while being left alone in a hotel room are, say, one in a million but the chances of your child being killed in a car accident on the highway are, say, one is fifteen thousand, how can it makes sense to say that the parent who decides to drive when there is a perfectly good alternative transit available nevertheless shows a lower "level of neglect"?
And isn't it negligent to send your child to High School or College in the US? After all, look what happened at Columbine High School and Virginia Tech.

Isn't it selfish not to take your child to school every single day rather than leaving him/her at the bus stop because s/he could be kidnapped? (as was that teenage boy who, luckily, escaped unharmed).

Isn't it selfish and unconscienceable to not sleep right next to your child since they could be kidnapped out of their rooms, as what Elizabeth Smart and little Jessica (forget last name who was killed in Florida)?

Isn't it selfish to raise you child in the US at all, considering the gun violence, the *much* higher rates of kidnappings under any circumstances, and the higher road accident rates?

Where does the blame stop and the compassion begin?
post #84 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by DariusMom View Post
Where does the blame stop and the compassion begin?
apparently not on this thread, as you yourself seem awfully quick to condemn others viewpoints. i think the point of this was to have a discussion about parenting choices, maybe even to see them in a different cultural light, not attack other people's opinions.

i have made many mistakes with my son and i acknowledge them. i don't think it's wrong to point out that these people also made a mistake, although i sincerely hope that their daughter returns home safely so they don't have to live with the consequences forever.
post #85 of 262
If my children were all fast asleep and the place was as far away as my downstairs (about 50 ft give or take a few), I probably would leave them. However, I wouldn't leave the door unlocked and it would have to be visable to me at all times. I leave them upstairs several times a day.

I do not blame the parents at all. Everyone does dangerous, selfish, things everyday involving their children. Car rides? Super dangerous. Going anywhere with more than one or two children is dangerous, especially if you don't use those "abusive leashes" that lots of people on here bash. Your kid could be taken right from your side! I don't believe anyone who says they haven't put their child in danger. Maybe you wouldn't do this exact situation, but that doesn't make the parents at fault. Everyone is different, every situation is different. They had someone STEAL their child. STEAL. They think a pedophile/raper/etc.. took her. How can ANYONE sit here and blame them when their 4 year old (which, btw, they had to celebrate her 4 year birthday without her) if probably being raped, sold for sex, and/or killed? HOW? What gives any of you the right to do that? Can you imagine how they would feel if they came on here and saw this thread?

I think all of you need to go hug your children and be very thankful they're even there to hug. Her parents can't do that.
post #86 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cutie Patootie View Post
First off, the parents are obviously not of the ap/natural family living sort, at least in this aspect. They must be of the "CIO is okay group" because an ap parent could not fathom leaving their child alone, in a strange place to boot, while they are out having dinner...in the next room, or the next building over. Seriously, what was their frame of thought? They checked on the kids every 1/2 hour?! A 3yo and 2 babies? What if they woke up 1 minute after a 1/2 hour check. The parents were obviously okay with them crying alone in an unfamiliar place for at least 29 minutes or they wouldn't have left them there. So though I don't place blame on them for the person who took their little girl I do not have respect for the way they chose to parent their children in this aspect. It shows a great deal of selfishness, which is what I commonly think of people who allow their little ones to cry alone in a room afraid for a 1/2 hour.
You know, I had a feeling that is where some the hostility towards the McCanns was coming from with some people...the assumption that because they weren't cosleeping then they must not be AP, therefore they must not be very good parents. Thank you for being honest.

IME, just because some kids sleep through the night and don't wake up every 30 minutes does not mean that the parents practiced CIO. Just because parents aren't still cosleeping when their kids are 2 and nearly 4 does not mean the parents let them CIO to learn to sleep on their own.

I am sure the McCanns know about their children's sleep patterns better than anyone else, just like I know my daughter's better than anyone else. She most likely either wouldn't wake up at all through the night or would wake up once but not till after midnight. It would be reasonable for me to assume that I could eat dinner without worring that she would wake up.

I am guessing these parents made the assumption that their kids wouldn't wake up. Considering their ages, I don't see how that would be difficult to believe. If these parents were all about CIO and were selfish to the core, they probably would not have bothered to get up to check on their kids at all.

I am not saying that I think the McCanns made a great decision, and even they have now admitted they made a mistake. But I can totally see how they would have thought it was safe at the time. I saw an aerial view of the resort last night on the news and compared it to the map I keep seeing on BBC. The aeriel view made it look even closer than what I was imagining from the map. They were basically across the pool from the apartment. ABC said 150 ft although that number is ever-changing, and I have heard anything from 50ft to 300 ft. Either way, from that aeriel view, it looked pretty close. Also, I read this article about how idyllic the resort is. I could see how it would be easy to believe bad things never happen there. As a matter of fact, according to a resort rep, they never do, at least before this happened. Another article quoted a couple of parents at the resort saying they did the same thing the McCanns did all the time. Also, several members of the staff were quoted to say that the practice is very common.

I think in the context of where they were, these parents made what seemed to be a reasonable decision to them. Statisically speaking, what happend was so rare, I can understand why it wouldn't be something on the parent's radar. It's really easy to see now how the decision wasn't a good one, but like the old saying goes, hindsight is 20/20.

Also, to those who blame the McCanns, but then say you yourself have left the room to go get coffee and a muffin or even went for quick trip to the car, and you think that is okay, I would think twice before you judge. The authorities in this case suspect the kidnapper was are part of an international pedophile ring and that this was a "to order" kidnapping. He was a pro working with other pros. All he needed was a few minutes to jimmy the window, snatch Madeleine, and leave out the front door. The authorites believe the kidnapper was stalking and waiting for his moment. If you were at a hotel and decided to go get your breakfast down the hall and around the corner every morning, that would have been a great chance for a stalker to have made their move on your child. Even better, while you were out at the car, they could have pulled the fire alarm denying you easy access back into the building and giving them a perfect chance to run from the building with a screaming child without anyone thinking anything of it.

I think we as parents make decision everyday that risk our kids lives. Some out of necessity, some out of selfishness, some out of just down right fatigue, and some because that is just life and we are human. Analizing how we can do better and learn form other's mistakes is a great idea and very constructive. I just don't see what the point is in assigning blame to these parents and making value judgements on their parenting style. Just because some parents practice AP/NFL does not protect them or their children from harm. I think that is really naive to believe so, but maybe it brings some people comfort.

If you have read this far, thank you and sorry for the novel. I don't expect anyone to change their mind. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and this is mine. Of course it could change based on any new information that comes to light. I just felt the need to put it out there.
post #87 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by caspian's mama View Post
apparently not on this thread, as you yourself seem awfully quick to condemn others viewpoints. i think the point of this was to have a discussion about parenting choices, maybe even to see them in a different cultural light, not attack other people's opinions.

i have made many mistakes with my son and i acknowledge them. i don't think it's wrong to point out that these people also made a mistake, although i sincerely hope that their daughter returns home safely so they don't have to live with the consequences forever.
I was thinking about this thread at work today, it caused me so much anger yesterday evening.

(Not your post, the thread in general)

My initial reaction was that this thread wasn't a discussion in regards to parenting choices... but more of an opportunity for many to condemn Maddy's parents. I would need to wonder WHY any of us have the need or want to point out that Maddy's parents made a mistake in the first place. I think that they themselves realise this. And judging by the physical frailty of the Mother at this point, she's more than aware of what her mistake was.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but I feel those that judge harshly do so with the intention (although unintentional maybe) of making themselves feel better. Such as, 'Oh they're terrible parents, how shocking and neglectful of them, I would never do such a thing' (Insert symbolic pat on the back here)

I just find this whole situation tragic. My heart hurts everytime that I see a photo of Maddy on TV or in the paper. And I can almost feel the desparation, heartbreak and despair of Maddy's parents at this time. Why oh why, would any one of us want to judge harshly people who are experiencing so much pain at this moment in time?

caspian.. this post isn't aimed at you. Sorry, it was the first one on this page that mentioned something relevent to what I wanted to say. :

Peace
Imogen
post #88 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverscout View Post
You know, I had a feeling that is where some the hostility towards the McCanns was coming from with some people...the assumption that because they weren't cosleeping then they must not be AP, therefore they must not be very good parents. Thank you for being honest.


Thank you so much for this post....
post #89 of 262
All right, the question in the OP is "Would you leave your kids in a hotel room (like these people did)," and most people here answered no. Then, of course, the thread degenerates into "I blame them," or "Don't judge them!" and "Where is your compassion?"

Well, I've been appalled at the choice those parents made, ever since I first read the story, and it's a choice I would never, never make. At the same time, my heart breaks for them. I don't think they deserve to lose their baby. I hope against hope that the child is returned unharmed.

You know, if I'd heard in passing that a couple left their small children sleeping alone in a hotel room while they ate their dinner, even if nothing bad happened, it would disturb me. I understand craving alone time. I'm a single mom, I don't get any breaks. But I wouldn't consider doing something like those parents did. At the same time, there's room in my heart to feel for them. The worst possible thing happened to them.

That's all I can say, I don't think I want to read this thread any more.
post #90 of 262
By saying "like these people did" when you already know what happened to their child, the blame is automatically placed on them. If there had been a thread that said "would you leave your child alone in a hotel room" with no "like those people" type accusation, it would be different. That statement tainted the whole thread.
post #91 of 262
ot

don't you wish the feds would spend as much time, energy, and mone infiltrating pedophile rings as they do fighting their 'war on drugs'?

i could name you several sites offhand that would put a lump in your throat, where they congregate & get to know each other, all very legal, & very careful to get to know one another before passing on 'private' info. they have support boards very much like mdc, where they discuss tactics and feel very put upon that they are misunderstood.

imagine if the focus used to bust someone importing bongs was put on apprehending the producers of child porn.

remember shasta & dylan groene? you do know 'jet' duncan was taking video of everything he did to those poor children, right? he wasn't one whack, disturbed individual- he was providing a market with product.

let your politicians know if you think resources used to prosecute the drug war would be better spent fighting those who profit from child porn. it's big business.
post #92 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by caspian's mama View Post
apparently not on this thread, as you yourself seem awfully quick to condemn others viewpoints. i think the point of this was to have a discussion about parenting choices, maybe even to see them in a different cultural light, not attack other people's opinions.
I'm not attacking other people's viewpoints. I don't think it's wrong to say, "wow, I don't think I would ever leave my kid alone in a hotel room, even had this horrible incident never happened." I've not "attacked" anyone who said that.

What I have said, however, with no apologies, is that I find the constant use of terms such as "selfish" and "gross negligence" to describe the McCann's not only completely lacking in compassion and self-righteous, but also bordering on the inconsistent. I was raising the question of what actually constitutes negligence, especially given the cultural context (which, as I pointed out, I happen to know, since I live in Europe). Is that "attacking" or is that responding with my own viewpoint? If it is responding with my own viewpoint, then aren't you "attacking" my viewpoint?

As another poster already said, I think that this post has run its course and has degenerated completely.
post #93 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
Absolutely not.

We often get suites and order up room service after dd is asleep in the bedroom. Add a nice bottle of wine, some candles, and a little music and it is a date.
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post #94 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathryn View Post
By saying "like these people did" when you already know what happened to their child, the blame is automatically placed on them. If there had been a thread that said "would you leave your child alone in a hotel room" with no "like those people" type accusation, it would be different. That statement tainted the whole thread.
No, it wouldn't. I judge them because independent of what happened, they made an incredibly selfish and BAD decision. If I had heard of someone doing this where nothing horrible happened, I would judge them just as fiercely.


Of course, the fact that I think they screwed up in a major way means I think they DESERVE what happened, right? Give me a break!
post #95 of 262
In answer to the op's question. Would I leave my child in a hotel room? Absolutely no.
As for this family~ I am praying their daughter is brought home alive and well. I am praying Maddy is safe. I cannot bear to even imagine the nightmare they are living right now.



post #96 of 262
No, I'd never leave my child in a motel room.

I haven't had a chance to read all the comments -- so I don't know if what I'm about to say has already been touched on.

When I visited Great Britain in the late 1980's, it wasn't unheard-of, in smaller towns, to sometimes see a baby in a pram parked on the sidewalk outside a store, while the mother shopped inside. But I don't recall seeing this in London or any of the bigger cities. Still, even in a small town, I just can't imagine doing that.

I don't mean to imply that even a majority of British mamas would do such a thing. Even in a culture where it's more "the norm" to leave a baby on the street or alone in a motel room, the parents still should be connected enough to their own child, to know not to do that.

It's like cry-it-out: it's just plain wrong, no matter how many of your friends and relatives are doing it.

But I speak from the perspective of being an AP mama who's become accustomed to questioning the norm and going against the flow, weighing every cultural practice against my own children's unique needs and feelings. I suppose parents who've never questioned whatever's accepted among their social "set," are more likely to mechanically go along with stuff without even thinking it through.

They're still responsible for their actions, but I also do feel sorry for any parent who loses a child. I feel more sorry for the child, though.

And yes, the kidnappers are the real villains.
post #97 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by mammal_mama View Post
Even in a culture where it's more "the norm" to leave a baby on the street or alone in a motel room, the parents still should be connected enough to their own child, to know not to do that.
I have a HUUUUUUUGE problem with that statement
Maybe you don't know this, but in countries like Denmark it is very common for parents to leave their babies sleeping outside in the pram while they go in the shops or cafe briefly. Saying that parents who do that are no connected to their own child and should know better is very judgemental and undermines the different culture and local situation.
post #98 of 262
I would not leave my children in the room "like they did". But if we are in a hotel, we have been known to take our key, and pace the hall for a little quiet stroll while they sleep. I would never leave the door open or be gone long, though.
post #99 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by riverscout View Post
Also, to those who blame the McCanns, but then say you yourself have left the room to go get coffee and a muffin or even went for quick trip to the car, and you think that is okay, I would think twice before you judge.
I'm going to presume that you're getting different posts mixed up, since I said I've left to get coffee and muffin while my MOTHER and DD were asleep in a hotel room. I'm the only one on the whole thread who said I've left to get coffee and muffins down the hall. And, I didn't say I blame Madeline's parents. I answered the OP question that at first I thought no, I'd never leave my child in a hotel room alone. Then upon further consideration I said I might have done it before, but I certainly wouldn't do it knowing what I know now.

I don't get the whole weird notion of blame. Are they "to blame?" How on Earth would I know? What difference would that make? Do I think it's fair she was taken? No. Do I think it's right? No. Are they responsible for her kidnapping? No. Might the outcome have been different if they'd made different choices? Yes, but so what?

I also said that they might have called attention to the fact that there was a child unprotected in the room by going back every half hour. (Again, I don't see that this is "blame.") I do kinda think a few minutes as opposed to a half hour is "safer" in that case. Just like I wouldn't handcuff a briefcase to my arm if I were carrying a lot of cash on the subway. It draws attention to the fact that there's something stealable.
post #100 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Primigravida View Post
I don't think I'm reading this right??? :

They left........
a 3yr old..........
alone........
with two 2yr olds....
in a hotel room
300 ft away

That don't sound very bright.........

Thank you. I hold whoever kidnapped the little girl responsible for kidnapping the little girl, but mom and dad were certainly negligent in leaving a three year old and 2 year old twins unsupervised. What if there was a fire? What if one of them was sick or hurt? I am sure they regret what they did now, but it seems that they didn't really think that choice through very well.
So in response to the OP's question, absolutely not. I wouldn't leave my 6 year old alone in a hotel room, much less my toddlers. I feel very badly for the parents and even more badly for the little girl, but the parents made a very stupid choice that contributed to the tragedy of the whole situation.

Namaste,

Michelle
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