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Why are most doctors pro-vax? - Page 5

post #81 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by nataliachick7 View Post
bc she doesnt want to get crap from the state. i know a doctor in my area who has approx. 10,000 non vaxing families at his practice and constantly has the state dept calling him questioning the medical exemptions and telling him they are concerned, etc.
damn big brother:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kate3 View Post
Yes, people do die from mumps and rubella. It is not common but it can and does happen. Not every case is mild and not everyone is able to recover.
I have seen people die from respiratory failure from chicken pox.

Again, this is not to change opinions. Just to increase awareness that there is not always a "happy ending". You are forever changed by holding a dying child. It is something you never really get over.


Quote:
Originally Posted by momto l&a View Post
What I want to know is what kind of health where those who died of vac preventable diseases?

IMO that very important info.
My two cents worth is:
I can understand both sides. BUT to the med people I have to ask what the post in red said. AND you have to look at probabilites. What are the chances of A. my child coming into contact with a said 'disease' ( i call them conditions because disease IMO is soemthing that is incurable) and B. then CONTRACTING and showing symptoms, and C. then to have COMPLICATIONS, which form what I understand is where the deathes come from. He has a high chance of a sever reaction to vax than of all that happening.

I do beleive vaxs have a GOOD place in the world, just not in newborns and ALL CHILDREN! Yes some children might have certain cirumstances where it might make more sense medically than others but your run of the mill child is born healthy enought to be able to fight said 'disease' on their own with no problems. I think in poverty stircken and sanitaion-less areas I think it is a great idea but in my situation it is not needed or ideal.
I heard that if you don't drive a car you have a REAL good chance of not dying in a car wreck. But you can still get hit as a bike rider. Life is full of possible ways of tragic death, we are blessed to have advancment but I think it is OVERLY advanced sometimes.

It is late and that is probably clear as mud, sorry.
post #82 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by bri276 View Post

ignorance. groupthink. brainwashing. pride. denial. fear.

THIS is about as close as we'll get to an answer to the op's question.

post #83 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deborah View Post
The argument that doctors believe in vaxing because they have seen children die of VPDs is a weak one for several reasons.

First, if we trust doctors at all, it should be because they have studied the evidence and drawn careful conclusions based on the evidence. Would anyone really want a doctor who based their practice decisions on personal experience of isolated cases--not even case studies? I wouldn't!

.

Yeah...I wasn't saying it was a good thing. Reading the "Name That Lie!" thread really makes me feel like they're looking at the issue the way someone with PTSD might, with the embellished memories and all.
I don't think peds intentionally tell untruths. I really don't. PTSD does weird things to people's heads, I guess?
Either way, a lot of the time (not always...there are exceptions) they just don't seem to be able to think about the issue critically. They really seem to remember things that simply can't be true.
post #84 of 292
Just wanted to insert by personal experience with the ped we left. When I first started researching this issue, I thought I would go in and ask her about vax's and get her "take" on them. What I quickly found out is that she had NO idea what she was talking about. She had no idea the ingredients of the vax's, no idea how long vax inserts say hepatitis "protection" from a vax would last, and (here is the big one) NO idea that the flu shot contains thermerisol. : Seriously, I was not only extremely disappointed, but scared into action. I knew then that I was going to have to be the one to obtain information and be in control of my children's medical decisions. So, yeah, I agree w/ previous posters who say it is due to ignorance.
post #85 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by giggleball View Post
So, yeah, I agree w/ previous posters who say it is due to ignorance.
So what does a doctor learn in four years of college, four years of medical school and two year internship? How can a person be so ignorant after ten years of advanced training?

I think it is a choice to be so ignorant.
post #86 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by applejuice View Post
So what does a doctor learn in four years of college, four years of medical school and two year internship? How can a person be so ignorant after ten years of advanced training?

I think it is a choice to be so ignorant.

they are taught vaccines are spectacular and never showed ingredients lists or package inserts with adverse reactions.
i dont think they realize there is a whole other side to vaccines.
i mean, i had no idea either, until i found this message board. i was vaxing my son, bc was told vaccines save lives and my son could die without them.....etc
post #87 of 292
There have been plenty of people who have not vaxed for decades - religious, healthnuts, and people who simply think outside the box - AND - they have not died off, they are still here. I am one of them. My family, none of whom went to medical school, learned that vaxes are a bad idea when my aunt had anaphylasis after one vax in the 1920s in the doctor's office. Using some common sense, how many more vaxes should she or anyone else have after witnessing an event like that?

The problem with common sense is that it is not so common.
post #88 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by giggleball View Post
Just wanted to insert by personal experience with the ped we left. When I first started researching this issue, I thought I would go in and ask her about vax's and get her "take" on them. What I quickly found out is that she had NO idea what she was talking about. She had no idea the ingredients of the vax's, no idea how long vax inserts say hepatitis "protection" from a vax would last, and (here is the big one) NO idea that the flu shot contains thermerisol. : Seriously, I was not only extremely disappointed, but scared into action. I knew then that I was going to have to be the one to obtain information and be in control of my children's medical decisions. So, yeah, I agree w/ previous posters who say it is due to ignorance.

Yeah, when I was new to the whole vax debate thing, I noticed the same thing arguing with peds on vax debate boards. I had somehow accumulated a lot more vaccine knowledge in just a couple of months than they had in med school and doing this for a living for years!

That's one of those things that no one believes until they see it for themselves. When you tell people "Most peds don't really know much about vaccines", they think "Whatever, you arrogant antivaxer! "
But seriously, it's true.

Again, kudos to the peds here who are self-educating!
post #89 of 292
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post #90 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by lokidoki View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kate3
Just to answer the questions:
I have personally seen a death from:
mumps
rubella
chicken pox

All were unvaccinated.
The chicken pox case was an adult. The other two were infants under one year of age. All during my residency.
So what you are saying is that the two infants UNDER the age of one wouldn't have rec'd those vaccines ANYWAY therefore dying from complications of a disease that they had not been vaccinated for because it was not due on their schedule yet.
Sounds like a good argument for the need for herd immunity.
post #91 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by nataliachick7 View Post
they are taught vaccines are spectacular and never showed ingredients lists or package inserts with adverse reactions.
i dont think they realize there is a whole other side to vaccines.
This I don't believe at all. I think it is more reasonable to assume that a) doctors know what ingredients are in vaccines and simply don't have a problem with it, and b) they have weighed the risks of adverse reactions against the risk of complications from disease and found that the stats favor vaccines. In other words, I don't believe that the disconnect between doctors and non-vaxers is an issue of ignorance; I believe it reflects different tolerance for certain types of risk and the use of different sources to assess those risks.
post #92 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iolanthe View Post
This I don't believe at all. I think it is more reasonable to assume that a) doctors know what ingredients are in vaccines and simply don't have a problem with it, and b) they have weighed the risks of adverse reactions against the risk of complications from disease and found that the stats favor vaccines. In other words, I don't believe that the disconnect between doctors and non-vaxers is an issue of ignorance; I believe it reflects different tolerance for certain types of risk and the use of different sources to assess those risks.
No, I know for a fact that a lot of peds have no idea that a lot of flu vaccines still contain thimerosal.
post #93 of 292
Hey you guys -

I'm very new here and new to being a parent and I've only really started researching this whole vaccination thing. I have given dd her 2mo and 4mo shots but after reading some of the arguments against vaccination, I'm second guessing myself.

Dh says that the main reason cases of polio are so rare is because of the vaccinations - and this has me wondering. If people stop getting vaxed, do you think these diseases will come back?

I just don't know about it and it is so much information to consider.
post #94 of 292
Ok, I'll respond because I enjoy pain.

I'm a MD. I don't work with kids most of the time, and I don't do primary care. This means that I almost never deal directly with vaccinations. The only time I do is when working with immune compromised people, and this is a very different situation than with most kids in peds offices.

First, there's a few misconceptions I've seen over and over on this thread. Some of these deal with med school. My med textbooks and the reference books I use today are not written, sponsored, or paid for by drug companies. There's plenty of drug company-sponsored literature out there, especially stuff aimed at patients, but reputable text books are not. Second, most med students have little to no experience with drug reps in their first two years of med school. These are the lecture-based years in which students learn about normal (physiology, anatomy, histology), abnormal (pathophysiology), and pharmacology. In my pharm class, we were taught the generic names of drugs, not the trade names (the names of individual drug company products). This was also required in the clinical years, especially when writing prescriptions. So we learned "ibuprofen" and not "Advil". None of the material in Pharm class was from drug companies. To ensure that, my profs wrote their own class material (this is a common practice in my med school).

While in med school, we were taught to evaluate articles critically again and again. This continued for all 4 years. We had lecture-based classes and multiple writing assignments about this. Evidence-based medicine is a fairly new development in med education, and this is a huge part of it. In every paper centered around a study, in addition to other things, I had to write something about the limitations or flaws of the study. [FTR, the standard published study must include a section about its limitations.]

As for education about vaccines, mine was very limited. I put some of the blame on med schools, but I put part of the blame on the CDC and FDA. I think the CDC and FDA fail completely in the completeness of the information provided to parents and physicians and in the studies required for vax approval. I think it would be easy for the CDC to go through its files and provide a full picture of a VPD incidence, from pre-licensure of the vax to present day that also includes in the same discussion rates of vax coverage. What they give instead is fairly useless. Sure, reports are spotty pre-reporting requirements for reportable diseases. But they could do much, much more in making meaningful reports.

In terms of reactions from vaxes, this is where I probably differ from many here. I think VAERS is useless. Completely useless. It is not much more than anecdotes of bad things that happened some time after a vax was given. Again, part of the blame is on the CDC. Thanks to their system, it is impossible to put together a scientifically rigorous study of vax reactions from VAERS. I also am skeptical of some of the things many perceive as vax reactions. But there is no good system in place to evaluate these. Ideally, peds would be highly trained in spotting and reporting childhood vax reactions, but I don't think that is the case.

Then there are the VPDs. Some are not worrisome. Sure, a few people with Hep A will have a rocky course, but I don't see the need for vax in most young children. I could see recommending the vax for those will liver disease to avoid the risk of fulminant liver failure, men who have sex with men, people being treated for some clotting disorders, people who use IV drugs, and folks who work with or around people with HAV. I also wouldn't think it would be a bad idea to test older people for immunity to HAV and offer the vax if their are not immune as it can be more serious in this population. I blame the CDC for having at its apparent goal "eradication of disease", which makes any disease a possible target for a vax.

Some are worrisome. Of course, many people with polio will not get the paralytic form, but the risk is not worth it in my mind as there's very little that can be done for those who do. Measles can be mild or it can kill, and you can't always predict the course in any one given patient. Rubella may not be all that bad in kids - although it certainly can be - but I'm glad there's a vax in order to cut down on congenital rubella syndrome.

In terms of docs seeing deaths from VPDs, that is a fact. I have seen more than one. People ask, "was that person breast fed" or "were they previously sick". In terms of being breastfed, that certainly helps but it does not confer magical protection. As for being previously healthy, some were and some were not. I've seen some previously healthy college-age students die from meningitis. One was a college athlete home for spring break. He thought he had the flu around dinner time, his parents brought him to the ER at 9 pm because his neck hurt and he was confused. He died at 7 am the next morning. He was unvaxed. Would the vax had saved him? No one knows, but if there was any chance of that happening you can bet his parents would give their own lives to go back and do it.

Statistics are weird things. Maybe only 1 in 100,000 get some terrible complication of VPD X. But it doesn't matter if that one person - or that one patient - is YOUR child or your responsibility. I tell people that stats give you an idea of risk, but that for an individual all risk stats are really binary: Either it happens to you or it doesn't. Use the real stats to develop a basic comfort level regarding the chances of something bad happening, but realize that it still could happen, or not.

I would not say I"m "pro-vax". I would say that I think most vaxes are mostly good. I also think vaxes have helped contain a number of previously prevalent VPDs. I do wish the CDC would snap out its fog and truly address the problem of a lack of meaningful information on the possible harms from vaxes and full story of VPD incidence. But I do think if all vaxes were ended today, eventually we would see some heartbreaking rises deaths and complications from some VPDs.

I am pro-vax education, despite the challenges the CDC's presents in doing this well. I have no problem with parents to make an educated or religious-based decision not to vax their children. I just wish there were better information out there, less misconceptions on both sides, and more respectful and open-minded - and open-hearted - debate on the subject.

Sorry this is so long.
post #95 of 292
Quote:
I blame the CDC for having at its apparent goal "eradication of disease", which makes any disease a possible target for a vax.
Another piece of the puzzle with weirdo universal recommendations is that the CDC works in conjunction with the WHO objectives. And the WHO needs universal vax coverage in countries like the US for the vaccines to be affordable in the two thirds world.
Ala universal newborn HepB shots in the US so China can curb it's raging HepB epidemic. A whole lot of the vaxes work like that. Kids in Africa are dying from rotavirus by the millions, but for Africa to be able to afford the vax, first Merck needs to sell however many millions of doses in the US so production costs can go down, so African nations can afford it, where it actually might have a significant impact on child morbidity and mortality.
But the CDC can't convince people (parents and doctors) to vax for those reasons, so we get the transparent, unrealistic fearmongering.
So it's a mess.
post #96 of 292
wow!! Very refreshing to hear that come form a physician!! I TOTALLY agree on the CDC angle, that is what I try and talk to my family about and they don't get it. I agree with you and your post was a wonderful read! I wish most docs would just repsect a parents descion and then drop it.
post #97 of 292
The problem as I see it is that Doctors are trained to see individuals as biomechanical machines that are not in and of themselves unique. We're pretty much all the same underneath the skin.
Thus they practice one size fits all medicine, especially in regard to vaccination.
It has only been lately they've noted that: people of black heritage respond differently to certain drugs, that women respond differently to pain medication, that redheads respond differently to anesthesia, and that children's response to any drug is different from that of an adult. I won't even go into how vaccines are made and produced and how many trace contaminants chemical, biological and viral there can be.
post #98 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crisstiana View Post
While in med school, we were taught to evaluate articles critically again and again. This continued for all 4 years. We had lecture-based classes and multiple writing assignments about this. Evidence-based medicine is a fairly new development in med education, and this is a huge part of it. In every paper centered around a study, in addition to other things, I had to write something about the limitations or flaws of the study. [FTR, the standard published study must include a section about its limitations.]
I have not been to medical school, but I have a good friend who is recently just out of med school. My "beef" w/ our medical education is that the "other side" really isn't presented. Were you given ANY literature/studies, etc. to look at that might present the case for vaccine reactions? Just curious, b/c when I began my research I looked at BOTH sides of the equation....doesn't seem to be so balanced in med school.
post #99 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by InfoisPower View Post
The problem as I see it is that Doctors are trained to see individuals as biomechanical machines that are not in and of themselves unique. We're pretty much all the same underneath the skin.
This was true in my experience only to a limited degree. During our clinical rotations, it was made clear it was unacceptable to refer to a patient with, say, ulcerative colitis as "the ulcerative colitis in bed _". We were also given a ton of cultural sensitivity training during the first two (lecture-based) years, and in clinical evalutions whether we took patient individuality and cultural issues into consideration was a separate area of evaluation filled out by out attendings.

Of course, during the first two years' physiology and pathophysiology, we were taught how people are biomechanical machines. But once you start working with people you realize just that: you are working with people.
post #100 of 292
Quote:
Originally Posted by giggleball View Post
Were you given ANY literature/studies, etc. to look at that might present the case for vaccine reactions? Just curious, b/c when I began my research I looked at BOTH sides of the equation....doesn't seem to be so balanced in med school.
We discussed the study linking autism with mercuy in vaccines and the studies disagreeing with this. That's about it, so it was basically zilch for me.

ETA: I don't think a cursory discussion of vaccine reactions is completely inappropriate during med school. As a med student, it is pretty much guaranteed you will never order a vax or have any say in the decision to vax someone. But it should be exhaustively covered in residency for OB/gy, peds, family practice, and emergency med, and for peds/internal med combined residencies. IMO, it also should be covered in training for trauma surgery, intensivists, international travel, infectious disease, among others.
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