why do you not homeschool? - Page 9

[MamaOutThere]

Wow! I came to look at this thread out of curiosity and found a fascinating discussion (well, exchange of assertions) on multilingualism. Ya never know what you'll find at MDC.

I have a 7 year-old dd who is trilingual. We did not do OPOL and guess what? She's just fine, folks. Amazing, isn't it? She's even an advanced reader in two of her languages. However, she does not have language "abilities." The kid was exposed and she learned.

My 19 mo began one-on-one exposure to her third language just two months ago. She now has more words in her third language than in her two native.

My husband, who speaks 4 languages, learned his fourth at age 23 or so. His grammar still sucks, but native speakers can't tell he is not a fellow countryman. He also has a very, very slight accent when he speaks English. But he does make all the mistakes mentioned.

I learned Italian at 19. I spoke Florentine with a very heavy local accent (rarely spoke English for many years). I have not spoken much Italian in the last 9 years. Yesterday I spoke with a man from Pescara who did not know my true nationality until I told him; he was convinced until then that I was Italian.

I speak three other languages, but none as well as Italian and English -- because I'm not motivated.

This leads me to: In my humble opinion, language acquisition requires motivation. Period.

If the French seem rude it's because we often seem rude to them. Going up to someone and asking "Where's the Eiffel Tower?" or "Yah, give me a ham sandwich!" or "Do you have the time?" without first saying hello and pausing for a reply is perceived as very rude. That's just one misunderstanding between our two cultures.

Velochic, my dad has travelled to almost every country in the world. He has worked in several of them and lived in a handful of them. This does not make him any less ignorant, unfortunately.

I have travelled to many countries (haven't counted) and lived in a diverse handful of them. I don't even begin to think I know it all. I'm nowhere close. In fact, the more I travel the more I become aware of this.

[UUMom]

I agree about the greeting first in France. That's a good tip. They can be a bit pricklier about their language, than say, the Portuguese. (Although I've seen some fireworks between continental Portuguese vs Brazlian Portuguese speakers. lol) Although most native French speakers are wonderfully helpful when a polite effort is shown, ime.

[EXOLAX]

Why WE aren't homeschooling, for now...

I'm lol at this thread. I started to reply when it was new and just now got back around to it and _wow_, this thread is due for a title change. I'm going to answer the OP's original question but first wanted to point out something....

We all have different lives, different experiences, different environments etc. I would take the leap and make the assumption that we are all sharing our own ideas that come from years of individual experience shaped by the above factors. I do not have the ability to step into someone else's life and live it in order to fully understand it, so I would try to not judge them or their choices from my point of view. It's not logical. I can though express my opinion, based on my experiences and circumstances, but it really isn't going to impact someone else, unless they let it. That said, here are my experiences.

We do not consider public school to be an option for our children. I'm not going to bother adding an explanation as to why and listing off all of the negatives. Our district school system isn't right for our kids, so I'm going to hope readers will just trust me in that. For us the decision was between homeschooling and private school.

I had actually always planned to HS, and by the time DD1 was two became involved in some local HSing groups. We did lots of wonderful activities, guided creek walks, museum trips, rec center classes. Fun for the kids and lots of mixed ages. I was involved with a number of different groups, to get the feel for it and hopefully find a fit. Even with all of the wonderful activities, I didn't find what I was looking for.

Dh and I are dicotomies. We can fit in anywhere because we can understand and read different social environments, but it still doesn't mean we truly 'fit' or belong. While I enjoyed myself, none of the groups really worked for me and I found parental interaction and community to be a huge part of our HS'ing communities. My community wasn't there. (I am willing to elaborate but won't bother with details now to keep this post from turning into a book.) I established that if I was going to HS, I would have to create my own little community, and started a plan for a HSing co-op.

I always felt that I was capable of HSing, but knew that it would be a lot of work. I also recognized that in order to HS, DD1 and I would have to really work on our relationship to maintain a positive mother-daughter one and not turn it into an educator-pupil dynamic (something neither of us would want). I did try to probe and discuss with other HSing parents the balance of this dynamic. _My_ experiences (similiar to a PP's) was that my inquiries were immediatly rebutted as a none issue and something that needed no further discussion (this happened with many of my questions).

I knew all along that no matter where our children's education was taking place that I wanted it to be Reggio inspired. It's the teaching methodology we use naturally at home and which DD1 thrived in. While attending HSing group activities, I also explored the RE schools in our community. I found one that put me to shame. Again I won't go into details (unless there's interest) as to why we love this school and I will simply say that I had the painful realization that this school could teach our children better then I could. It was a hard piece of reality, but one that was so blatantly evident. We choose the private school for this reason, and because we feel in love with it; it was our ideal school.

We all have our own set of limitations which affect our decision on any matter. In regards to schooling many different things can factor in; local options (institutionalised schools and HSing support), finances, family and household environment, community resources etc.. But our personal experiences and desires for our children play a huge factor in our own decisions. What's right for one family is great for them, what's right for us is great for us. It doesn't diminish anyones' personal choice.

I would like to note that from my experience and discussions on this matter (again reiterating it is a personal choice) that people on either side of the issue espouse many of the same reasons for coming to a conclusion. I have heard people on the institutionalised school side claim they worry about socialization and learning through exposure to social circumstance. I have also heard many HSers claim they wouldn't send their kids to school for concern over negative social exposure. (Just to cite one example of many, but social issues seem to be a common debate on this issue.) To me this comes down to different parenting styles and choices. We all do what feels right to us, we all want the same thing, we are just making different choices to try to get there. Hopefully all our children will meet happily at the end point, after taking the different roads layed out for them.

On a personal note: I spent the first few years of DD1's life believing it was my job as her mother to protect her from physical and emotional pain. It took some time but I eventually learned that no matter how well I attempted to 'control' her environment that I was setting myself up for defeat. I now believe it is my job to help give her the tools to personally deal with any situation which comes up through support, information, critical thinking and unconditional love. Hopefully the choices we have made together as a family will help guide her in life, I think that's what we all want.

YMMV.

[velochic]

Originally Posted by UUMom

Although it's difficult for me to hear what you have to say- you are so angry --over what, I haven't a clue.

Oh for goodness sakes, I'm not angry. I'm saying that having a immersed, multi-cultural, multi-lingual education is a valid reason to *not* homeschool. I find that you are the one being narrow-minded, because you cannot say (as RedWine was able to say), "Yeah, it's a valid reason. It's not right for us, but it's a valid reason for you." You're making all sorts of "excuses" to dismiss my argument, but I believe that my argument is a sound one.

It's been a few years since I got my undergrad degree in linguistics, but I remember well, the struggle that most people have to acquire a passing ability to communicate in a foreign language as adults. My niece, who has been learning English since 1st grade (she's 18 now) and who we see quite often *still* is not able to carry on a real conversation in English. Visiting for a month or two per year and having the class one hour a week for the past 12 years has not made her even close to fluent. She is in a German immersion high school and her German is great, but she has a very heavy Turkish accent. Her German in 3 years has surpassed her 12 years of English by a thousand-fold. I don't really care about having an accent - the first rule of speaking a foreign language... make yourself understood. Whether that be using, as my in-laws call it, "Tarzancı" (tarzan language with lots of hand signals), or butchering the grammar. But if you can avoid that with your children and give them an education that allows them to THINK and DREAM (and in my dd's case, sleeptalk ) in other languages, and it REALLY is *that* important to you (or me, in this case), then why not give them that opportunity? That's what I'm doing. It's a valid reason to not homeschool. That's all I'm saying. Believe me... with dd's school being 45 minutes away... I'd love to find a reason to not spend the money on fuel and 3 hours a day carting her back and forth to school.

Unfortunately, a thread that was supposed to be among people who send their kids to school to discuss why we do so has been overrun with homeschoolers whose sole purpose is to tell us that our reasons are all established on fallacies and misconceptions. As if we're all ignorant and haven't done our research. It would have been nice if in the "Learning at School" forum, those of us who do send our kids to school could have this discussion without the feeling the need to "defend" ourselves.

I'm not angry about it, just confused why homeschoolers feel the need to "convert" us.

[EFmom]

I answered that I don't think it provides adequate academics, but it's not really just that. Homeschooling is nothing I want for my kids or for myself. There are no aspects of it that I find attractive. I'm fine with other people doing it, but it is not for us.

We live where we live because it's a great school district.

[Beppie]

My father is a professor at a liberal arts college. Lately he's seen an increase in the number of students in his classes who were homeschooled, and two things stand out about them, as a group:

1. The homeschooled students are, as a group, not as tolerant of others. My father has been particularly alarmed at the way many (not all) of these students show a remarkable ignorance about where other students are coming from, particularly students of different cultures, religions, and socio-economic backgrounds. Many of these students seem to think that others in the classroom will think as they do; their attitudes are more rigid and inflexible to students who think differently. As a whole, they are just not as knowledgable about other students' differences and backgrounds.

2. Some (not most) of these students start getting into really bad behavior in college. Is it because they were not exposed to these influences at a younger age? I'm not sure. My dad is surprised at some students who were homeschooled and coming from religious backgrounds/families, who started binge drinking, and a student who even was caught selling drugs on campus. Is it because they're suddenly thrown into a situation they've never encountered before and they go overboard? Now I know many college students coming from public high schools will binge drink and take drugs; I suppose my father was just surprised at finding that students from noticably religious/homeschooled backgrounds were doing this, and seeming to lose control over their situation.

[Sasha_girl]

Originally Posted by velochic

: How many cultures can you represent homeschooling? To me that is the exact reason to NOT homeschool... people really thinking they can expose their kids daily to the cultures of the world by keeping them at home. How many languages (spoken by a native speaker) are your kids exposed to on a daily basis? How many different ethnic foods do they get to sample? How many different ethnic holidays do they celebrate every year?

Over 70 countries and languages are represented in my dd's international school. She'll also get a degree recognized by the ministries of education in France, Canada, all of Latin America, Spain, and some African countries. Somehow I doubt that your homeschooling curriculum is approved at that level.

I would love to have access to an international school. Unfortunately my little town's (less than 10K) K-12 school (graduating class size average of 65) is completely white and, although it isn't actually surveyed, likely completely Christian. They make it a point to have a CHRISTmas celebration in the winter; it's what the townspeople want.

My kids speak English, Russian, German, and Latin. They can speak conversationally in Spanish. We spend most of our time on IU's campus, which has a huge amount of foreign students.

There is no comparison in our world.

ETA: To be clear, I don't care who sends their children to school, who homeschools, or why. It doesn't matter to me. I just take offense to the insinuation that homeschoolers sit at home without speaking to anyone of a different race, religion, or life experience while a school classroom is x % one color, x % another color, and with an array of religions represented. While I don't doubt that school's *could* have such representation, I don't think it's the norm (certainly not in the Midwest).

[Beppie]

Even if a school is primarily white and primarily made up of Christian families (in a small town), that doesn't mean there isn't diversity. I went to a high school in a pretty much entirely white and Christian school. But I was exposed to many different people there. Poor kids, richer kids, "cool" kids from privileged families, young girls who got pregnant and dropped out, boys who used drugs, kids who were smart and college-bound, etc. Even if they were all white, I learned how to relate to others different from myself.

meanwhile, at home I received a rich education as well. While my history classes might have been very lacking due to a poorly-educated teacher, we learned our history from our father and mother, and we learned our world geography from them, and we were encouraged in many other ways. Children's education is not limited to school. Children learn more from their parents, even those who attend school.

Nevertheless, going to school was invaluable in teaching me that not everyone comes from educated parents. It was almost more invaluable for me to deal with other kids who were poor and un-motivated. It showed me what is out there, and motivated me to go to college and law school, and is definitely motivating me now when I educate my children. And I think it also made me understanding and more compassionate than I otherwise would be, towards those less privileged. I had friends who dropped out. I also had friends who went on to graduate degrees and are very successful now. Both groups of people taught me something about the world and about myself.

It's a personal choice, but I would never homeschool my children because I believe they will miss out on life, pure and simple.

[philomom]

Originally Posted by RedWine

Again, ALL of the homeschoolers I've met (ages range from 2-18) have been nice, respectful, intelligent, self-motivated individuals. They get along with people of all age ranges, and there has been ZERO "teen attitude" in the teens.

This was not what I encountered when I home schooled my dd one year. We joined the local non-religious home schoolers, a large group consisting of 85 families called LEAD. While some of the kids were sweet, a fair portion of them only spoke to their parent, showed odd behaviors like crushing tadpoles for fun and did not say the customary "pleases and thank you" we expected to hear from kids in the South.

As a family, we live our lives using the "better/richer" public schools in our desired area. My kids have always gone to public schools that had music, a second language, a clinic nurse and all the bells and whistles. I drive an old car to help with my rich neighborhood mortgage but my kids are getting a quality education.

FWIW, I would not hesitate to home school again should the need arise. I just don't feel that one parent can teach a kid "everything". And my kids are very social. I had a very hard time finding kids to play with my dd when we home schooled because other folks kept such tight schedules.

[velochic]

Originally Posted by Sasha_girl

I just take offense to the insinuation that homeschoolers sit at home without speaking to anyone of a different race, religion, or life experience while a school classroom is x % one color, x % another color, and with an array of religions represented. While I don't doubt that school's *could* have such representation, I don't think it's the norm (certainly not in the Midwest).

I agree. It's all about demographics. Whether you homeschool or send you kids to school, its about who makes up your community. If you live in a white, protestant, middle-class area, your homeschool group or your classroom is going to be comprised of some form of subset of those people.

[RedWine]

Originally Posted by velochic

I agree. It's all about demographics. Whether you homeschool or send you kids to school, its about who makes up your community. If you live in a white, protestant, middle-class area, your homeschool group or your classroom is going to be comprised of some form of subset of those people.

I agree and disagree. If you find yourself living in a homogenous area and want your kids raised around people of different races and cultures, then regardless of whether you homeschool or send your kids to school...you have to make an effort and seek out the community you want to have.

[Kylix]

Originally Posted by velochic

Oh for goodness sakes, I'm not angry. I'm saying that having a immersed, multi-cultural, multi-lingual education is a valid reason to *not* homeschool. I find that you are the one being narrow-minded, because you cannot say (as RedWine was able to say), "Yeah, it's a valid reason. It's not right for us, but it's a valid reason for you." You're making all sorts of "excuses" to dismiss my argument, but I believe that my argument is a sound one.

It's been a few years since I got my undergrad degree in linguistics, but I remember well, the struggle that most people have to acquire a passing ability to communicate in a foreign language as adults. My niece, who has been learning English since 1st grade (she's 18 now) and who we see quite often *still* is not able to carry on a real conversation in English. Visiting for a month or two per year and having the class one hour a week for the past 12 years has not made her even close to fluent. She is in a German immersion high school and her German is great, but she has a very heavy Turkish accent. Her German in 3 years has surpassed her 12 years of English by a thousand-fold. I don't really care about having an accent - the first rule of speaking a foreign language... make yourself understood. Whether that be using, as my in-laws call it, "Tarzanc?" (tarzan language with lots of hand signals), or butchering the grammar. But if you can avoid that with your children and give them an education that allows them to THINK and DREAM (and in my dd's case, sleeptalk ) in other languages, and it REALLY is *that* important to you (or me, in this case), then why not give them that opportunity? That's what I'm doing. It's a valid reason to not homeschool. That's all I'm saying. Believe me... with dd's school being 45 minutes away... I'd love to find a reason to not spend the money on fuel and 3 hours a day carting her back and forth to school.

Unfortunately, a thread that was supposed to be among people who send their kids to school to discuss why we do so has been overrun with homeschoolers whose sole purpose is to tell us that our reasons are all established on fallacies and misconceptions. As if we're all ignorant and haven't done our research. It would have been nice if in the "Learning at School" forum, those of us who do send our kids to school could have this discussion without the feeling the need to "defend" ourselves.

I'm not angry about it, just confused why homeschoolers feel the need to "convert" us.

Wow, you sound angry to me too.

And, I think the problem is not homeschoolers feeling a need to convert but instead feeling the need to lay some misconceptions to rest. You would like UUMom to state that your reason for choosing your dd's school is a valid one not to homeschool. I have yet to see you state that homeschoolers can provide a multilingual, multicultural education for their children. Is it the same as your international school? No. Is it more work than just dropping your child off at a school? I think so.

There is no perfect education system. There are things about your dd's school that I would not want for my children and there are things about homeschooling that you clearly do not want for your dd.

The point is not to convert, it is to respect each other's choices, move on from the misconceptions and stereotypes, and accept that there are positives and negatives about every choice.

I still don't see what good could have ever come from this thread. I posted already in this thread--what's the point of a thread called 'why don't you homeschool?' other than to talk about why homeschooling is inadequate in your opinion. Why not speak more positively and respectfully and say why you chose the school you did.

Leave homeschooling out of a school forum and homeschoolers will stay away.

Kylix

[UUMom]

Not to mention that you aren't even reading my posts, V. I have a two children who are homeschooled, one child who is in private school, and one child who is in pubic school.

You clearly have your own agenda, and it does not include actual dialogue or full comprehension of posts that aren't written by you.

[lauren]

Closing thread until I have time to review.