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FFer's offended? - Page 3

post #41 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTail View Post
Look, who are these people irl 'judging' the ffers? I've never said it was 'poison', I've never laid bs on ffing aquaintances-there are jerks everywhere, and a very minute percentage of 'lactivists' are included in that bunch.

Whereas jerky people irl often talk smack about (and to) bfers. of This whole argument is revolving around some straw tit. I have never met one person in my life that went around saying rude things to ffers. It's the freaking majority in this culture, I'm supposed to believe rude lactivists are everywhere, dumping on the women who can't bf?

If you are statistically unfortunate enough to run into one genuinely asshattish lactivist, is it going to lead you to what- stop feeding your child? What power do they have over you (unlike novice bfers who can easily be bullied & shamed in this culture out of successful nursing entirely)?

The power they held over me was that it made me feel an even more horrible of a woman, mother, etc, because I couldn't breastfeed and the many women that would come up to me didn't even do it in a caring supportive way. They didn't care about what my story or was going on in my life, they only wanted to push their opinion, without having any compassion or kindness. I also had PPD at the time, and this made hearing those things 5,000 worse.

Out of the many there were maybe 5 or 6 women who did so with compassion and caring. They at least were interested in why I had to FF unlike many others who just accused me of lying.

I believe that women who BF should be able to NIP without snarky comments, stares, gestures etc. So why shouldn't someone who FF be granted that same courtesy? Especially when one knows nothing of their situation?
post #42 of 369
See, that's what I'm talking about. Maybe I'm naive, but how on earth did you find multiple people irl that accused you of lying? I know people can be rude, but that's crazy talk. I'm just dumbfounded that anyone ran into more than one. I can barely find bfers at all, and when I do, they've all been perfectly charming to our other (perfectly charming) ffing aquaintences. What rock are you looking under to find these people? :
post #43 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTail View Post
Look, who are these people irl 'judging' the ffers? I've never said it was 'poison', I've never laid bs on ffing aquaintances-there are jerks everywhere, and a very minute percentage of 'lactivists' are included in that bunch.

Whereas jerky people irl often talk smack about (and to) bfers. of This whole argument is revolving around some straw tit. I have never met one person in my life that went around saying rude things to ffers. It's the freaking majority in this culture, I'm supposed to believe rude lactivists are everywhere, dumping on the women who can't bf?

If you are statistically unfortunate enough to run into one genuinely asshattish lactivist, is it going to lead you to what- stop feeding your child? What power do they have over you (unlike novice bfers who can easily be bullied & shamed in this culture out of successful nursing entirely)?
Ff's are NOT the majority around here.( I mean where I live, the prenatal group I was in, etc) And the fact that people dump on you for bf'ing should make you more determined not to do the same back. (general you, not specific.)
post #44 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdavis337 View Post
I also realize that the OP was was bout ff'ing women being offended by bf'ing references. To respond to that - NO. In fact, I'm jealous. I envy all of you. I'd love to be part of what looks from the outside to be the Inner Sanctum of Motherhood. I'd walk on hot coals to feed my babies with my own milk.


It really amazes me to see people who haven't been in that position make comments about how mothers who can't breastfeed "shouldn't" feel guilty/bad/offended/whatever........as though stifling one's feelings about the kind of rhetoric gets that gets thrown around on here were some test of whether you are really unable to breastfeed, or are hiding behind 'excuses.' Like: if we offend you, maybe you have a guilty conscience, kind of thing. (I see a similar dynamic on MDC with regard to c-sections and other birth problems.)

I agree with whoever stated that the lactivism forum should be the place where we put our best foot forward. Surely there are a lot of lurkers on here looking for information. It's a public forum, not a private bull session.

People who are mean to bottlefeeders on the excuse that "well it happens to us ten times as much" are dirtying the beauty of BFing. I mean if you really think you're so much better than others (as evidenced by willingness to play fast and loose with their feelings), then why don't you rise above?
post #45 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTail View Post
See, that's what I'm talking about. Maybe I'm naive, but how on earth did you find multiple people irl that accused you of lying? I know people can be rude, but that's crazy talk. I'm just dumbfounded that anyone ran into more than one. I can barely find bfers at all, and when I do, they've all been perfectly charming to our other (perfectly charming) ffing aquaintences. What rock are you looking under to find these people? :
Maybe it was where I shopped? I used to (and still do shop Whole Foods) quite a bit. Couple times at the airport on the way to fly home to texas (and then back to PA)to see my parents. Several times at the mall, and park. And just various and random places that seem to blend...

Look I totally understand where y'all are coming from and I like I said I met some great women who I guess were lactivists. And they were extremely caring and compassionate people. So I do understand that not all women who are lactivists are like the other people I had mentioned.
post #46 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom2snugbugs View Post
You mostly hear about moms who try to bf and then have problems and quit and ff. I have never heard about a mom who tries to ff, realizes it is not a good choice, and then bf's. I wonder why that is? I would like to help mom's make a good choice from the beginning.
I did that. Now you've heard of one.
post #47 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by My4Boys View Post
If no one is offended by portrayals of breastfeeding, or breastfeeding in general, then please explain to all of the mothers who have been asked to leave a public space because they are breastfeeding their child, why exactly they were asked to leave?

I'm with the posters who are tired of having to apologize for making strong statements on the LACTIVISM board. The assumption seems to be that if a lactivist is venting frustrations or ideological thoughts to another lactivist, then she must also present this strong opinion to others. This is rarely the case! It is, believe it or not, perfectly possible to be a rabid, ranting lactivist here, and a supportive, helpful, caring person in general. Every one needs a safe place to vent!!!

To my knowledge, people here on the lactivism board are not running over to the adpotion board, or the low supply board and posting anti-formula rants or trying to convince any of those moms that they should have breastfed. That would be ridiculus, hurtful, rude, and counter productive.

Speaking for myself, I KNOW that there are moms who tried desperately to breastfeed and could not. I KNOW that they NEED formula at this point. I think any attempt at nursing or relactation is courageous, honorable, and admirable. I can totally empathize with any mother whose heart is broken that they were honestly, truthfully, UNABLE to breastfeed.

But let's be HONEST here. When I come to complain about the ignorance about breastfeeding or the despicable marketing tactics of formula companies, I'M NOT MAKING PERSONAL JUDGEMENTS ABOUT INDIVIDUALS!!! And I don't think anyone else is either! Even if it may seem so when a post is about an acquaintance who stoped nursing after a few days. Those posts, to me, seem more about the lactivist trying to work out her own feelings on the subject, so that she can go forward and be supportive of her friend or acquantance as a mother, breastfeeding or not.
post #48 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTail View Post
See, that's what I'm talking about. Maybe I'm naive, but how on earth did you find multiple people irl that accused you of lying?
Is it surprisingly only because it's IRL? Because I've certainly been accused of that here on MDC.
post #49 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTail View Post
Whereas jerky people irl often talk smack about (and to) bfers. of This whole argument is revolving around some straw tit. I have never met one person in my life that went around saying rude things to ffers. It's the freaking majority in this culture, I'm supposed to believe rude lactivists are everywhere, dumping on the women who can't bf?
I've never heard a rude word from either side in real life. In real life, I've had friendly conversations with random women at Target and in public bathrooms about both breastfeeding and formula feeding, with never a rude word or a judgment passed by anyone about anyone else.

But on the internet? It's been about 90% lactivists bashing formula feeders, and that's on at least three different parenting forums besides MDC, a couple of which would be considered "mainstream" here. The only compassion I got from anywhere while I was supplementing was on an atheism forum - I couldn't stand to go to the parenting forums and be harassed for not "trying hard enough." :
post #50 of 369
I guess my thing is, I do not go over to the UC/birthing forum and personalize their statements about medical births. (my birth was very very medical & wrong), I go there to learn and prepare for next time. You cannot honestly go to a lactivism board and be hurt by every comment that puts down formula use. Its misplaced.

ACTIVISM- vigorous campaigning to bring about societal change.....brings with it charged emotions. That is a reality. We are not in a "probreastfeeders forum".... we are lactivists. We want the norm of formula replaced with the norm of bfing. That change doesnt come easily, and requires increased education about what formula can do to our children (allergies, obesity, diabetes, etc).... it comes with informing on misleading advertising. Many of us dont like "breast is best...but formula is fine." we say, "breast is the absolute norm and formula has its place". There is a difference.

Im sure to some this feels personal, just like when I hear negative comments regarding epidurals and their negative effects. But i realize this isnt about MY birth and justifying my decisions, its about making sure less women are put in the powerless position that I was... So I spend time grieving my birth, I ponder what I feel most guilty about and I move on. Its not entirely important for me to inform women that they are hurting my feelings by posting their own.

We learn from each other, its hard to tell the tone of a message board...
but this arguement gets us nowhere.

Some lactivist use formula, some lactivists think formula is crap, some lactivists focus on NIP laws, there is a place for us all.

BUT TO THE OP.....I have met women who bf that are offended by nip... so im sure that there are people in all walks that are offended by the bf image.... not just ff.
post #51 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by ewp11100 View Post
I'm not trying to be snarky or anything but I was thinking....

We (ok many of us) get very offended seeing bottles/formula in entertainment/commercials/kids programming. Are mainstream or FFer's offended by seeing/hearing about/insinuating about bfing in the same circumstances?
I don't think so. Some people just know absolutely nothing about breastfeeding. To them its just the same sort of decision as "Shall I paint the nursery blue or yellow?" I think "Breast is best" has a lot to do with it too. "A fancy expensive pram would be best, but this cheaper less fancy one will do." It makes it sound as if its a decision you can make without there being much difference. Why should they be offended? Breastfeeding to them is just another way to feed a baby.

Some people are VERY offended though. On a mainstream parenting board I used to visit breast v bottle was one of the most hotly debated topics. Which is stupid really, because really there is no debate to be had. There was lots of "So you'd rather my baby STARVED to death than be given formula????" etc. And lots of talk about millitant breastfeeders trying to make them feel bad. If you feel bad it's because you have a reason to. A lot of these women were pretty well educated and would have known all about the risks of not breastfeeding, but still went ahead and chose to do it anyway. I don't think "offended" is really the right word to describe them though. I think seeing breastfeeding or hearing about it makes them feel attacked.

I admit to being very judgemental about formula feeders, until I had problems with my 3rd baby. I just assumed that having already breastfed two children I knew what I was doing. Its a long story, but we ended up supplimenting with formula, sometimes in bottles and sometimes with the SNS. It made me think, that I probably shouldn't judge everyone so harshly because I didn't know their full story. Maybe (and very probably) they just decided to formula feed without a thought, but maybe not.

I would breastfeed my babies everywhere, but I couldn't give my baby a bottle in public. I was ashamed that everyone would think I was a "scummy mummy" who didn't really care about my baby. I had to go and feed him in toilets and in baby change rooms. In reality probably no one would have batted an eyelid to seeing me give my baby a bottle. Even in the baby changing rooms I wished I had a big sign I could hang round my neck, saying "I don't really want to be doing this!" Seeing a woman breastfeeding I always felt the need to go up and share my story as to why I wasn't breastfeeding. (I didn't actually do it though) I think its also totally possible for formula feeders to be supportive of breastfeeding and not be at all offended by seeing or hearing about it.
post #52 of 369
Quote:
But on the internet? It's been about 90% lactivists bashing formula feeders, and that's on at least three different parenting forums besides MDC, a couple of which would be considered "mainstream" here.
Your statement here seems to include MDC on the list that equates to "90% bashers." If I am correct in the way I read this statement, I would love for you to prove, with examples that demonstrate, that an extrememly high percentage of the posts here are about "lactivists bashing formula feeders."
post #53 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTail View Post
bfing is not a 'privilege', nor is human milk 'liquid gold', it's just normal. default.

walking, seeing, chewing, hearing, breastfeeding: all these things come standard. sometimes things go whack and organs don't function as they should- it's always good to appreciate things working as they ought, but someone needing glasses to see is a different situation than someone choosing to walk around blindfolded.

it's just normal. not heroic (in most circumstances), not 'extra', not anything but the everyday act of a postpartum female mammal lactating.

i wouldn't feel guilty if i needed to wear glasses. i wouldn't feel guilty to use a wheelchair if i needed to, to get around. why would i feel guilty about giving my infant formula if i had no alternative? (and mythical affordable milk banks aside, most women who cannot for whatever reason successfully lactate will need formula).

glasses aren't that uncommon either, but it would be rather odd to wear them if you didn't need them (and highly expensive when we expect society to provide glasses for people who can see perfectly well, because it's their 'choice').
Amen. And I both need glasses and needed formula supplementation during my babes first year. Glasses help me to read, drive, and see my beautiful children. Formula helped my children to grow, and allowed me to continue breastfeeding to this day ( they are over 2 years old).

And yes I do care about what other people feed their children, because it is a human rights issue. It's just like I care about smoking around children and using car seats. Children's health and lives are vulnerable to their parents' choices. Lactivism is about promoting a culture of breastfeeding, where every mother can breastfeed to the extent she is capable.
post #54 of 369
I think the OP was asking about the fact that when I see a bottle on television, I see a missed breastfeeding opportunity. I see artificial feeding being set as the norm. It is irritating to me. Do I wonder if watching breastfeeding is irritating to ffers? I don't ever see breastfeeding on TV so I really can't say whether or not they would be irritated. Although, with all the controversy over whether or not I should be allowed to feed my child in public makes me think some ffers are "offended" by nursing.

To the off-topic. You really can't be a lactivist without including "breastmilk is basic" or the pseudo-correct "breastmilk is best/better than formula." It is the truth. Whether a woman ffs by choice or by circumstance, it's NOT anti-formula to state this. I really don't understand why that's considered "not lactivism" or why it's rude to ffers.

Furthermore, if I can't say "breast is basic" because that implies formula is substandard and therefore is insulting to ffers; if I can't say formula is not the best option for babies because it is how some mothers choose/need to feed their babies and therefore is insulting to ffers; if I can't point out the potential problems ffing may cause - allergies, sensitivies to foods, gut issues, weight issues - because not all babies are afflicted and therefore is insulting to ffers; if I can't express my irritation about formula/bottles being all over in society and the lack of breastfeeding images because that is supposed to be the biological norm because it implies that using bottles/formula is wrong and therefore is insulting to ffers.....what can I say?

Recap - I shouldn't say breast is best. I shouldn't say breast is basic. I shouldn't say formula isn't the best choice. I shouldn't point out formula's potential health problems and I shouldn't express frustration over imagery of a mostly formula-fed society. I really don't get the limitations on lactivism. I especially don't understand why on MDC, in the forum of Lacitivism, I feel like this thread is defending the right to lactivise. (feel free to borrow that made-up word)

I recently got into a discussion about ffing and breastfeeding on another forum and this discussion is so similar, it's depressing.
post #55 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerTail View Post
Look, who are these people irl 'judging' the ffers? I've never said it was 'poison', I've never laid bs on ffing aquaintances-there are jerks everywhere, and a very minute percentage of 'lactivists' are included in that bunch.

Whereas jerky people irl often talk smack about (and to) bfers. of This whole argument is revolving around some straw tit. I have never met one person in my life that went around saying rude things to ffers. It's the freaking majority in this culture, I'm supposed to believe rude lactivists are everywhere, dumping on the women who can't bf?

If you are statistically unfortunate enough to run into one genuinely asshattish lactivist, is it going to lead you to what- stop feeding your child? What power do they have over you (unlike novice bfers who can easily be bullied & shamed in this culture out of successful nursing entirely)?
I agree completely!!
post #56 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaryJaneLouise View Post
Lactivism is about promoting a culture of breastfeeding, where every mother can breastfeed to the extent she is capable.
Yes, yes, yes!!! Beautifully put.
post #57 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdavis337 View Post
. Lactivists are angry at the ESTABLISHMENT that promotes ff'ing and prevents/sabotages breastfeeding by every woman in America. .
I am more concerned about the worldwide impact on culture that ff has. It sickens me to know that formula companies and western civilization have gone into third world countries for decades now and completely decimated the breastfeeding culture. In those countries when a woman is coereced into bottlefeeding she is choosing a feeding method that often leads to the death of her child. It also affects her own bodies ability to naturally child space.

Formula companies are making their fortunes on the backs of these people.

So when ever I see a formula product or a bottle in any kind of packaging/setting this is what is offensive to me. I see an instrument of death and torture not just a feeding substitute. So I am not offended by the mom who for whatever reasons is ff; I am deeply offended at those fat cats who have developed the marketing schemes and who know what they are doing and do it anyways.
post #58 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by kawa kamuri View Post
I did that. Now you've heard of one.
woo hoo! yeah!
post #59 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarinet View Post
I
You really can't be a lactivist without including "breastmilk is basic" or the pseudo-correct "breastmilk is best/better than formula." It is the truth. Whether a woman ffs by choice or by circumstance, it's NOT anti-formula to state this. I really don't understand why that's considered "not lactivism" or why it's rude to ffers.

Furthermore, if I can't say "breast is basic" because that implies formula is substandard and therefore is insulting to ffers; if I can't say formula is not the best option for babies because it is how some mothers choose/need to feed their babies and therefore is insulting to ffers; if I can't point out the potential problems ffing may cause - allergies, sensitivies to foods, gut issues, weight issues - because not all babies are afflicted and therefore is insulting to ffers; if I can't express my irritation about formula/bottles being all over in society and the lack of breastfeeding images because that is supposed to be the biological norm because it implies that using bottles/formula is wrong and therefore is insulting to ffers.....what can I say?
:
post #60 of 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by inchijen View Post
I guess my thing is, I do not go over to the UC/birthing forum and personalize their statements about medical births. (my birth was very very medical & wrong), I go there to learn and prepare for next time. You cannot honestly go to a lactivism board and be hurt by every comment that puts down formula use. Its misplaced.
ITA This is the LACTIVISM board.
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