FFer's offended? - Page 5

[momuveight2B]

Originally Posted by liawbh

Interesting post about WIC. I had the total opposite feeling with my oldest. At first, I was so excited, seeing the BFing posters, but the overall experience was really NOT helpful. I was asked at every visit if I needed formula vouchers, given some seriously dirty looks when nursing an older child, and told to give more dairy to my toddler, despite his still-frequent nursing. The default position at WIC is formula feeding, and the BFing posters are often little more than window dressing.

This has also been my experience. I found them more helpful when I had foster kids in the program.

For my own breastfed child I had to fill out the dietary sheets showing that she drank so many ounces of milk each meal because they did not accept breastmilk as an answer or that I didn't know how much. I just had to give in and play the game. At the time my husband was deployed overseas and I needed the program. Some may not agree but I felt the supplemental food helped me continue to nurse although I know their intent is that the food be fed to the child directly.

[gwynthfair]

It seems as though WIC offices vary widely wrt to breastfeeding support. I know I've read numerous posts that praised WIC as well. I think it depends a lot on the actual people working for the local WIC office. I've heard good things about our local WIC anyway.

[pookel]

Originally Posted by carriebft

Your statement here seems to include MDC on the list that equates to "90% bashers." If I am correct in the way I read this statement, I would love for you to prove, with examples that demonstrate, that an extrememly high percentage of the posts here are about "lactivists bashing formula feeders."

Sorry if I wasn't clear, what I meant was "90% of the bashing [when it occurs] is coming from lactivists; 10% is formula feeders bashing breastfeeders." On MDC I think it's more like 0% formula feeders bashing breastfeeders! Obviously I don't want to raise the percentage of that - I would rather see no bashing of anyone at all. I was responding to a post that implied that breastfeeding moms faced more harassment than formula-feeding moms, which hasn't been my experience (online, anyway).

[TigerTail]

i question the statistics, but even were that a given, is what somebody says online, usually not even to you but peripherally (in a lactivism forum!) anything like as influential or upsetting as what somebody does to you in the real world?

before you speak, think about it, if you haven't actually been harassed- sure, somene online can put a bee up your arse if you let them, but it's nothing, nothing like having someone single you out and harass & shame you in your face.

[tallulahma]

Originally Posted by pookel

Sorry if I wasn't clear, what I meant was "90% of the bashing [when it occurs] is coming from lactivists; 10% is formula feeders bashing breastfeeders." On MDC I think it's more like 0% formula feeders bashing breastfeeders! Obviously I don't want to raise the percentage of that - I would rather see no bashing of anyone at all. I was responding to a post that implied that breastfeeding moms faced more harassment than formula-feeding moms, which hasn't been my experience (online, anyway).

:

Yeah, Ive had some crazy stuff said to me BY IRL people that was rude, in your face and would have been completely unacceptable if it had been from a bf to a ff. But when it was said to me? I looked around to see if anyone was going to side with me and someone said, "well you DECIDED to whip it out in public... so what did you THINK was gonna happen"

:

I wonder REALLY how many ff moms have to be seriously nauseous about being confronted EVERY time they feed their child outside their home. EVEN in my home, I have been made to feel rotten for bfing. Ive gotten the "you are STILL NURSING!!!" "how LONG are you gonna do THAT!".

""well Im all for bfing, as long as I dont have to see it"

Trust me, I think many ff moms are way more offended and vocal about bfing than there are bfing mamas offended and vocal about ff.

[pookel]

Originally Posted by inchijen

Trust me, I think many ff moms are way more offended and vocal about bfing than there are bfing mamas offended and vocal about ff.

Well, I was talking about the internet, like I said.

The thing is, it depends SO much on where you live. I have never, ever seen anyone give nasty looks at women NIP. (I've never really NIP myself since we were supplementing anyway - was easier to give a bottle than try to get him to latch in a busy place.) I've seen quite a few women breastfeeding on benches at the mall around here, and never heard anyone comment in any way. I breastfed in front of my MIL, who was obviously embarrassed but just didn't look, and never said a word about it even though she ff'd all her kids from day 1. Another friend of mine nursed her toddler at my house while some of our other (single, male, unused to babies) friends were around, and none of them said anything or acted like they thought it was a problem.

I absolutely believe that things are different where you live. But this is how it is where I live.

The internet is the same way. I saw a forum recently where people were saying the kind of crap you're talking about - "that's gross" or "I can't believe she STILL has that baby hanging off her tit" or worse. But that's the first time I've ever seen anything like that online. In three previous parenting forums I've been on, and a couple of non-parenting forums, the bias is all the other way.

So in terms of what I, personally, have experienced - the negativity is coming almost entirely from "lactivists."

[melissakc]

Originally Posted by pookel

I have never, ever seen anyone give nasty looks at women NIP. (I've never really NIP myself since we were supplementing anyway - was easier to give a bottle than try to get him to latch in a busy place.) I've seen quite a few women breastfeeding on benches at the mall around here, and never heard anyone comment in any way.

I don't think you can speak for moms who NIP if you haven't done so yourself. That's like when my mom, who is white, says racism isn't a big deal anymore. It's wrong, for one thing, but it's also insensitive bc she isn't the one on the receiving end of it.

Just bc you didn't hear anyone say anything to anyone around you doesn't mean it doesn't happen. In my experience it wasn't anything overt. It was dirty looks, shocked and embarrassed faces, or people shaking their heads in disapproval. And I was embarrassed and being discreet. Someone sitting next to me may not have picked up on it, but I sure did.

But my real problem with your argument is that our society is SO supportive of FF and full of obstacles for BF. That's why BFers go on the internet--for the support we can't find in the real world. That's why we have to be lactivists in the first place.

[boobs4milk]

go to a mainstream board. mdc is WAY more bf friendly than most. i call it my 'safe bf haven' b/c i know that there are moms here who are just as passionate and just as AGAINST the use of formula as i am. i don't feel like i'm bashing on ff moms when i say that i dislike formula and i think it is overused and of poor quality. ppl. just read into that what they will...

[Kailey's mom]

Originally Posted by gwynthfair

It seems as though WIC offices vary widely wrt to breastfeeding support. I know I've read numerous posts that praised WIC as well. I think it depends a lot on the actual people working for the local WIC office. I've heard good things about our local WIC anyway.

I really love our WIC office. They loaned me a pump when dd was 4 months old when I was trying to relactate, and even gave me a bottle of fenugreek to start. I could call and talk to the lact spec anytime, or come in. Since my daughter is ff and requires a special formula, i've never had a problem with getting it (some wic offices, i've heard really push good start etc)

[Kailey's mom]

Originally Posted by boobs4milk

go to a mainstream board. mdc is WAY more bf friendly than most. i call it my 'safe bf haven' b/c i know that there are moms here who are just as passionate and just as AGAINST the use of formula as i am. i don't feel like i'm bashing on ff moms when i say that i dislike formula and i think it is overused and of poor quality. ppl. just read into that what they will...

i don't want to go to a mainstream board to be honest btw I have no clue who you are addressing, I didn't read all the pages, just thought I'd be a smart as@. I agree that formula use (as a whole) is overused, over marketed, and is far less heathy that breastmilk.....but due to crappy circumstances, I have to give it to my daughter: : is it possible to be a formula feeding my daughter, and still be a lactivist??, because I encourage breastfeeding.

[pookel]

Originally Posted by boobs4milk

go to a mainstream board. mdc is WAY more bf friendly than most.

The boards I was on WERE mainstream boards. I never came to MDC until my son was 14 months old and hadn't nursed in months. I'll list the exact boards I'm talking about if that's allowed - I can't remember whether mentioning other boards by name is OK if we're talking about generalities and not specific threads/posts.

[mamadelbosque]

I post on two other boards that are something like 95-99% male (ones' Gamespot forums, the others' a spin-off of Ubuntu forums... so all computer geeks, and I recently did a post about what they think about BF in public.. and have been totally happily surprised. On the ubuntu-spin-off its been something like 90% positive while on GS' its been somewhere around 60-70% positive (not surprsing really, since GS is a lot of teenagers... . So, among a poll of mostly-guys I've been happily surprised...

[bullfrog]

I have never ever ever ever read a story in the paper or seen one on the news where a woman was harassed for feeding her baby with a bottle.

Never ever ever ever ever.

To say that FF mom's are harassed more than BF moms is so ridiculous. I'm sorry but I refuse that completely, utterly and wholeheartedly.:

If there is internet support for breastfeeding then HORRAY - we're getting our message across. But IRL there is a long road ahead.

What kind of situation would it be if the stewardess had been a lactivist (loose cannon lactivist) who threw someone off an airplane for formula feeding her child? That stewardess would probably be in jail! The airline wouldn't even have a little bit stood behind her - and there would be tremendous outrageous public support - if it made it into the media - because it would have been so obviously wrong the papers wouldn't have even picked it up - there would be no debate.

[mom2snugbugs]

Originally Posted by bullfrog

I have never ever ever ever read a story in the paper or seen one on the news where a woman was harassed for feeding her baby with a bottle.

Never ever ever ever ever.

To say that FF mom's are harassed more than BF moms is so ridiculous. I'm sorry but I refuse that completely, utterly and wholeheartedly.:

:

[bullfrog]

Originally Posted by pookel

I don't know why so many people seem to think that "lactivism forum" is equivalent to "place where we can hang out and say nasty things about people we disagree with."

Who exactly are you talking about? This is total projection. I have seen nasty remarks about ff - and every time I've seen them, the MOD's remove them. They are not allowed on this forum. So who is saying that it is ok?

Originally Posted by sonrisaa29

Maybe it was where I shopped? I used to (and still do shop Whole Foods) quite a bit. Couple times at the airport on the way to fly home to texas (and then back to PA)to see my parents. Several times at the mall, and park. And just various and random places that seem to blend...

Look I totally understand where y'all are coming from and I like I said I met some great women who I guess were lactivists. And they were extremely caring and compassionate people. So I do understand that not all women who are lactivists are like the other people I had mentioned.

It's lame that someone would come up to you and push their agenda - the point of this forum is that breastfeeding moms have had their rights violated. I'm in no way saying that it's ok for someone to harass you - but if they complained to the manager, at say Whole Foods, that you were formula feeding - the manager would laugh in their faces, not kick you out or ask you to do it in a toilet stall.

[Clarinet]

Thanks for the words of wisdom, Bullfrog. FFers may feel as though other mothers who are breastfeeding hold them in some kind of contempt, but they will never feel public humiliation in the form of newspaper articles citing the reasons they shouldn't feed in public, public insistance that they cover their formula-eating baby's head with a blanket, threats with removal from establishments because of their bottle-feeding or being told that feeding their formula on a toilet in a public bathroom would be more suited to those around them. Never. Because that would be a gross violation of human rights.

It would be interesting to see statistics on the number of publications, especially newspaper articles, that support formula feeding as compared to the number that disparage breastfeeders. It won't make sense to compare supporting FFing in the media to supporting breastfeeding because lots of pro breastfeeding articles have all kinds of "formula is pretty much just as good!" disclaimers.

[SarahLi]

I consider myself a not-by-choice FF lactivist. My greatest hope is that BF is considered the normal way for babies to eat again not "the best" or "special". I am offended when women are not supported NIP, or by hospitals giving misinformation that leads to women quitting BF.

I am also offended when the occasional person assumes everyone who FF CHOSE to do so, or that low supply is some mythological fairytale, or tells someone that does ff about the health risks of it. I find that very insulting, as if someone assumed that I was intentionally trying to hurt my baby. I believe there are greater risks to having a malnourished baby than a ff baby. Although no one has criticized me in public, my residual guilt over having to ff makes me more sensitive to it.

I used to actually be more judgmental towards ff before I had my baby because I didn't understand that breastfeeding doesn't always work out the way you plan. I did not own bottles or even a pump when my son was born, I just assumed that I was going to "do" nursing. Although it didn't happen for us for many reasons, I have a feeling one day I will be able to nurse a child, and that will make me very happy.

While we need to be supportive of all mothers, I feel that NIP needs an extra lactivist boost because it is the area that keeps many mothers from considering BF and being harassed for this is also unacceptable.

Bottom line, I think most women (bf or ff) are not fond of unsolicited parenting advice.

[AlexisT]

Originally Posted by bullfrog

Who exactly are you talking about? This is total projection. I have seen nasty remarks about ff - and every time I've seen them, the MOD's remove them. They are not allowed on this forum. So who is saying that it is ok?

I have seen comments here and elsewhere where lactivists cross a line. MDC is generally very good about squashing that, so you don't see it so much here.

It's easy to say "ignore what you read on the Internet" BUT if you're an FF"ing lactivist you're already in a difficult position. You almost certainly are FF'ing because you have to, you're already sensitive about your failure to BF and insensitive comments hurt more than they should. So if you get some smug know-it-all who tells you you're a bad person for using formula (NB: this is not permitted here but that doesn't mean no one ever says it anywhere) or that you could have gotten over your problems if you tried harder... it can be tough. It's my experience that the women who feel guiltiest over not BFing are usually the ones who have the least reason to and that's why I hate guilt tactics.

In real life, I would say that BFers do get more flak most of the time, but that doesn't mean that FFers never get attacked. A good friend of mine had someone come up to her in public and lambast her for formula feeding. The irony of the situation is that my friend is a committed BFer (she's currently pregnant with triplets and planning to BF) but she was feeding her foster son. When she told the woman this, the response was that she should have induced lactation! (Never mind that in some states it's illegal to BF foster kids, from what I've read here.) So the crazies do exist. I also think that outright antagonism to BF is lessening--people are more aware of the rights of BFers. The big, untackled problem is the culture of feeding--BF is still not considered the norm. FFers are much less likely to encounter this latter type of more subtle discrimination. So when they do encounter a militant lactivist it's that much more of a shock.

[pookel]

Originally Posted by bullfrog

Who exactly are you talking about? This is total projection. I have seen nasty remarks about ff - and every time I've seen them, the MOD's remove them. They are not allowed on this forum. So who is saying that it is ok?

We're not allowed to reference specific threads or posters; it's against the UA. Otherwise I'd post some links. You must have a different threshold for "nasty" than I do or you wouldn't believe those remarks don't stay up.

Some things I remember - mods, I hope it is OK to talk in generalities; please let me know so I can edit this out if not - are numerous threads about how "sad" it is to see babies get bottles in public, and how sorry the poster feels for the baby whose mom didn't try hard enough to breastfeed. I also remember a lot of "this makes me sick" type comments about a slogan that I found to be supportive of moms who have to use formula. And then there were the personal accusations I have gotten, alleging that it was my own fault my supply dried up and that I was weak or lazy for giving my baby a bottle (say that again when it's YOUR skinny, dehydrated baby who's screaming for food, why don't you).

[pookel]

Originally Posted by Clarinet

Thanks for the words of wisdom, Bullfrog. FFers may feel as though other mothers who are breastfeeding hold them in some kind of contempt, but they will never feel public humiliation in the form of newspaper articles citing the reasons they shouldn't feed in public

No - instead they feel public humiliation in the form of newspaper articles citing the reasons they shouldn't formula feed AT ALL. How is that better?