At what point would the police respond?

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I did call the police. I just wonder where the legal line in the sand is...

Last night while leaving a parking lot, I witnessed a woman driving into the parking lot. As she was driving in, she was HITTING a young child who was curled up on the floor behind her seat. She wasn't just "swiping at her" she was HITTING hard.

I am more of a "to each her own" and "parenting styles" kind of person. I don't consider spanking to be actual abuse, rather than poor parenting. I would rather educate those parents than disrupt their family with accusations of child abuse when most churches and average parenting advice teaches to spank.

Anyway, this was an angry beating.

So, I did a few u turns, and went back in. The Mom wasn't too far into the parking lot. Apparently the child had unbuckled her seatbelt and was climbing around. So, since that is dangerous, the best thing to do is FLAIL WILDLY AT YOUR CHILD WHILE DRIVING.

I wrote down her license plate #, and later I called the police. The dispatcher thanked me, but I could tell they didn't think that it was abusive.

SO.. What is really considered abuse? We all have our different levels of tolerance for this type of thing. But, what is the legal definition?

[bigeyes]

yikes, I can't believe they didn't respond.

Unbelievable.

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Originally Posted by bigeyes

yikes, I can't believe they didn't respond.

Unbelievable.

Well, I only gave them the information. I have no idea if they responded. I just assumed by the reaction of the dispatcher that they weren't going to.

[christy005]

I really really hope they actually do something about it.

"Child abuse is the physical, sexual, or emotional maltreatment or neglect of children by parents, guardians, or others responsible for a child's welfare"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abuse


sounds like what was happening in that situation.

[Momma Aimee]

as a mandate reporter i have talked to the hot line a number of times, i would -- in your case -- call the natioal child abuse hot line IN ADDITION to the local dispatch

one thing i do know is they are TRAINED to be non-commital and calm and just take in as much data as possible. they want facts, not anything "added" so they don't react much to keep it that way.

however i also know that licien plate reports can be tough.

you did the right thing momma

another thing to thik about is it on reciord now -- even calls that don't get investigated do get logged and some times it is a number of repeated, "small" called that trigger something rather than one big call -- IYKWIM?

Aimee

[BelgianSheepDog]

Maybe you should call the non-emergency police number and report it again, and also ask which agency/number would be best to contact if you saw something like that again. I don't know about your locale, but the non-emergency operators have always been very helpful for me when I saw something fishy and wasn't sure who to call. Unfortunately sometimes problems slip through the cracks because they are never brought to the attention of the right person.

[bobandjess99]

While many of us would certainly consider hitting, even light spanking which it sounds like this was not, to be abuse.....in mnay areas, LEGALLY, it is NOT. In my state, the standard for abuse is leaving marks/bruises. A person can literally hit their kid all they want as long as they do not leave bruises. So, from a LAW ENFORCEMENT perspective, in my state, the woman was not necesarily doing anything wrong.
Since the woman was pulling into a parking lot, one would hope she stopped the car, and regardless of her choice of punishment, made sure the child was properly secured in a seat belt before continuing to drive.

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Originally Posted by bobandjess99

Since the woman was pulling into a parking lot, one would hope she stopped the car, and regardless of her choice of punishment, made sure the child was properly secured in a seat belt before continuing to drive.

Yes, that is what she was doing. But, the child was in a seat belt only, and she looked to be about four years old. It was hard to tell though, she may have been a little older. But no older than five or six.

[bobandjess99]

Ya..my tthought was, if the child can not be trusted to stay in a seatbelt while the car is moving, she should have been restrained in a harness......but not knowing your state, I don;t know how old kids have to be in a seat for....certainly from a safety perscpective , the kid should be in a seat....but legally? I don't know. In my state, the law is 8...but i know a lot of states still hagve 3/4 as their legal age...**double grumble**

[mammal_mama]

I don't want to doubt the validity of your assessment about the hitting. But I'm just having a hard time wrapping myself around the idea of me, while driving, reaching over the seat to my small child curled up on the floor behind me, and actually being able to hit her with any kind of force.

And I don't hit my children. If my child got out of a seatbelt/car-seat, I'd pull over and help her back in, but I wouldn't hit. I don't believe in hitting.

By the way, you'd be amazed at all the people who call police if they see unrestrained children in cars (quite a few on this board seem to take pride that they call people in). Maybe an MDC mom called this mom in previously when her 4yo did something similar, and was unrestrained for 2 minutes before Mom could get pulled over, and maybe the police DID follow it up and read her the riot act -- then when it happened again she panicked, over-reacted, and unfairly lashed out at her little one.

The hitting is still wrong -- but I just challenge each of you to put a punching bag on the back-seat floor of your car, get in the front seat and start driving, then reach over the seat and start punching. How hard are you really able to hit in that position?

I think her behavior was wrong, but I doubt it was criminal beating. By the way, another mom at MDC was recently called in because some woman in a parking lot thought she was beating her child, when in reality she was just trying to adjust the straps to her daughter's car-seat so her daughter couldn't keep wriggling out.

In this case, the police showed up at the woman's house that night after her daughter was asleep, and she had to carry her from the bed to the door so he could see she was unharmed (she was afraid to lead him through the house to the bedroom, 'cause she wasn't sure how he'd react to the messy house). The poor mom was really shaken up, and she hadn't even hit her daughter.

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Yes, but this was a little Toyota Yaris. And I was in a Chevy Tahoe, so I could see it very clearly.

The other problem was, she was litterally flailing around at this kid. It was not "driving safely, whilst trying to reach a child in the backseat". She could have killed them both, just with her driving. PLUS, it was afternoon rush hour.

However, she DID pull over, and find a parking lot.

I am VERY lenient about what others might consider abuse. I can easily say "Well, who knows what just happened, and I only saw a little peice of that". But, this actually scared me.

Maybe this kid is a HUGE handful. Maybe she was at the end of her rope last night, and hopefully this was just a final straw. I have had bad moments, and I feel awful afterwards.

[mammal_mama]

Yes, that's the hard part about glimpsing a few moments in the life of someone we don't know: it's hard to know if it's just a crummy moment, or if the parent is habitually violent. I personally have a couple of friends who were called in by concerned individuals, who questioned some aspects of their parenting.

Neither of these friends had their children taken from them, or were found to be abusive. Still -- the long, drawn-out weeks of "interviews" and "intervention," where caseworkers deliberated and went through whatever process they go through before they can finally close a case, were hell for those families.

Of course, calling the police is a lot better than calling Child Protective Services -- at least from what I've heard. Police tend to be disinterested in anything that's not clearly a criminal case.

[rmzbm]

Sorry you had to see that. I hope it was an isolated incident & the mama gets help. And, I agree - calling the police is a WAY better idea than calling CPS. They may just scare her enough to think twice...at least I hope so. Personally, as bad as it obviously was, I wouldn't call CPS. I would not be convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt the child was abused at other times. Without certainty I cannot get CPS involved, not worth the risk, IMO.

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

By the way, you'd be amazed at all the people who call police if they see unrestrained children in cars (quite a few on this board seem to take pride that they call people in). Maybe an MDC mom called this mom in previously when her 4yo did something similar, and was unrestrained for 2 minutes before Mom could get pulled over, and maybe the police DID follow it up and read her the riot act -- then when it happened again she panicked, over-reacted, and unfairly lashed out at her little one.

So are you saying that a person should not call the police when they witness a small child unrestrained in a moving vehicle? FWIW, I have on several occasions stated on this board that I have and will continue to call 911 if a see a small child unrestrained in a vehicle. My DH and I once followed a small 2-door sportscar for several miles at the request of the police until they could reach the car - there was 2 adults in the front seat, three adults and three unrestrained children - 2 toddlers and one small infant - in the backseat of the car. Do I believe that I did the right thing - heck yea and I would do it again in a minute. I don't take pride in my actions of act as if they make me "special" in any way but I figure that my guilt would be overwhelming if I saw a report of children killed in a car crash that I had seen and not reported.

[mammal_mama]

My guilt would be overwhelming if one of my own children died (or became disabled) from not being in a car-seat. Maybe I don't have a strong enough social conscience -- but I tend to think other parents have a responsibility toward their own children, just as I have a responsibility toward mine.

So my guilt is not overwhelming when it comes to other parents' choices. But then, I don't share the belief of some, that children belong to the state or society. I also don't believe they exactly "belong" to their parents, either, not in the sense of being their property. That said, parents do have a responsibility toward their children. I guess I find being a mom to my little ones pretty much pulls out whatever's in my "responsibility tank."

I don't have lots of reserves left over, to fume about whether other parents perceive their responsibilities the same way I perceive mine. When my little ones grow up, I hope to be just as absorbed in being a Grandma, and enjoying old age with my hubby -- and to STILL not have time to fume over others' choices.

I'm not going to speculate over whether you "should" or "shouldn't" follow people or call them in when you see them doing things you wouldn't (things the police or CPS might be interested in). I don't think you're waiting for my approval (nor should you be): you're going to do what you feel is right, just as I do what I feel is right.

I simply had the thought that, even if this same mom hadn't been hitting her child -- and had just driven calmly to the nearest parking lot -- there's a possibility she might still have been called in, by one of the many people continuously looking out for unrestrained kids in cars.

And maybe this (getting called in) has happened to her before, with her little wiggler, and maybe the fear of it happening again was getting too much of a grip on her. Just maybe we should give her the benefit of the doubt -- which I actually hear the OP doing in her recent post.

[STBSM]

FORTUNATELY THEY CAN NOT;NOT RESPOND when someone witness what appears to be abuse. I work for the EMS and they had to send someone to atleast say they did if nothing else. I surely hope they did as well!!
Good call!

Originally Posted by nextcommercial

Well, I only gave them the information. I have no idea if they responded. I just assumed by the reaction of the dispatcher that they weren't going to.

[Lady Lilya]

Originally Posted by mammal_mama

My guilt would be overwhelming if one of my own children died (or became disabled) from not being in a car-seat. Maybe I don't have a strong enough social conscience -- but I tend to think other parents have a responsibility toward their own children, just as I have a responsibility toward mine.

So my guilt is not overwhelming when it comes to other parents' choices. But then, I don't share the belief of some, that children belong to the state or society. I also don't believe they exactly "belong" to their parents, either, not in the sense of being their property. That said, parents do have a responsibility toward their children. I guess I find being a mom to my little ones pretty much pulls out whatever's in my "responsibility tank."

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