I Know This is Wrong...but WHY?? - Page 2

[runes]

Originally Posted by AppleCrisp

Well, I agree that Ferber is full of sh*t.

One thing he says that haunts me, though, is that if your child were doing something overtly dangerous, you'd stop them, no matter what the psychological cost, and you wouldn't think twice about it....and not sleeping well is dangerous to your child's well-being and general development yet we shudder at . I'm not sure how to resolve that.

He also makes it very clear that he doesn't believe its a phase (which I think it is) - it seems like all of you have children who did indeed go through just such a phase.

Didn't mean to make this about Ferber; hope this doesn't get pulled.

aaah, there's the flaw in the logic.

assuming that a child wakes up multiple times per night equates to "not sleeping well".

assuming that children who do not sleep through the night are sleep deprived.

in reality, waking up multiple times per night is NORMAL. it's how our brains are designed. cosleeping and nursing to sleep actually creates a more restful situation. most of us cosleeping and nursing moms would probably say that our children do stir but don't fully wake up. HOW is it more restful for a child to wake up fully in the middle of the night and be left to cry, and then the child gives up hope that their cries will be heard and attended to : and then they fall asleep again? so there's another flaw in the logic.

assuming that a child, after being left to cio then 'learns' to sleep through the night.

this is the part that comes in that solidifies that ferber's philosophy is cold-hearted. it is also possible that a child, in that scenario, 'gives up' and internalizes the message that their voice doens't matter, that their needs are not important for others. this is so sad to me.

compare this to many of the cosleeping/nursing to sleep babies who roll over, might not even open their eyes, latch on and fall almost immediately back to sleep. honestly, on any given night, i don't even know how often dd nurses because hallelujah...i get to sleep through it all too because she doesn't really wake up. so although dd nurses multiple times per night (on average, i would guess she nurses 3x), she doesn't wake up fully, so i suppose, technically she IS sleeping through the night. and both her and i wake up refreshed and well rested. there is nothing in the world quite like waking up to see your toddler's smiling face, a cuddle and a "hi, mama". :

[attachedmamaof3]

Originally Posted by AppleCrisp

Well, I agree that Ferber is full of sh*t.

One thing he says that haunts me, though, is that if your child were doing something overtly dangerous, you'd stop them, no matter what the psychological cost, and you wouldn't think twice about it....and not sleeping well is dangerous to your child's well-being and general development yet we shudder at . I'm not sure how to resolve that.

He also makes it very clear that he doesn't believe its a phase (which I think it is) - it seems like all of you have children who did indeed go through just such a phase.

I guess the difference for me is this: SAY he's right on this point (, say that (1) she's not sleeping "well", (2) this is unusual and (3) is not a phase. Not sleeping "well" is a danger, just for a sec, let's go with that.

Saying the above is true, which (to me) is more dangerous: Not sleeping "well", or taking something my child takes comfort in away because an invisible man with a book says to and is somehow able to make sense of in such a way that I actually convince myself that nursing my child back to sleep is contributing to putting my child in actual danger?

[Arwyn]

Define sleeping "well". Does your child have energy during the day? Do they seem rested when they wake up (perhaps after a short transition period)? Are they growing, learning, thriving? Then I'm going to bet they're getting enough sleep. I really think it's a myth that humans need to sleep "eight straight" - frankly, I think it's much healthier to be able to wake and return to sleep easily than to be unconscious for 8 hours in a row. By meeting their night needs, we can help our children learn that sleep is ok, that waking is ok, that the transition from one state to the other can be peaceful, even pleasant.

And yea, the idea that needing you a lot at night isn't a phase is just bunk. Listen to yourself, listen to your child, and listen to the other parents around you who are also meeting their children's sleep and nursing needs.

[rzberrymom]

Originally Posted by AppleCrisp

One thing he says that haunts me, though, is that if your child were doing something overtly dangerous, you'd stop them, no matter what the psychological cost, and you wouldn't think twice about it....and not sleeping well is dangerous to your child's well-being and general development yet we shudder at . I'm not sure how to resolve that.

I don't think waking to nurse every 2-3 hours at that age should be equated with something overtly dangerous. This is the biological norm, although we are TAUGHT that it is deviant. You might be interested in Dr. James McKenna's research on mother-baby sleep pairs, and this article might help put your mind at rest about your very normal baby, and you might enjoy the book Our Babies Ourselves.

[joesmom]

Originally Posted by AppleCrisp

One thing he says that haunts me, though, is that if your child were doing something overtly dangerous, you'd stop them, no matter what the psychological cost, and you wouldn't think twice about it....and not sleeping well is dangerous to your child's well-being and general development yet we shudder at . I'm not sure how to resolve that.

Excuse the all caps, I am not yelling AT you, just making a point: IF YOUR CHILD NEEDS TO NURSE TO SLEEP AT NIGHT, & YOU ALLOW HIM TO NURSE, YOU ARE NOT, NOT, NOT DAMAGING HIM. IT DOES NOT DAMAGE YOUR CHILDREN TO BE PARENTED BACK TO SLEEP.

Ok, I'm done. Phew. Joe nursed to sleep EVERY NIGHT of his life, from day one until he was at least 3.5. He woke up many times to nurse back to sleep in the first year or so. I did not sit up & worry that he was nursing too much. I latched him on & went back to sleep. He nursed like this until he was close to three, then he slowed way down, nursing to sleep (maybe ten minutes tops) & then once in the middle of the night, for about 2 minutes. He woke up literally at the same time each night, within a 1-2 minute range. The day he weaned, we laid down at night & talked & soon he fell asleep. Slept the whole night & slept like a log. He STILL sleeps so great.

You are not damaging your child by parenting him to sleep. It does damage children to be left alone to cry at night. That is a fact. Please trust your instincts!! :

[runes]

Originally Posted by Arwyn

Define sleeping "well". Does your child have energy during the day? Do they seem rested when they wake up (perhaps after a short transition period)? Are they growing, learning, thriving? Then I'm going to bet they're getting enough sleep. I really think it's a myth that humans need to sleep "eight straight" - frankly, I think it's much healthier to be able to wake and return to sleep easily than to be unconscious for 8 hours in a row. By meeting their night needs, we can help our children learn that sleep is ok, that waking is ok, that the transition from one state to the other can be peaceful, even pleasant.

And yea, the idea that needing you a lot at night isn't a phase is just bunk. Listen to yourself, listen to your child, and listen to the other parents around you who are also meeting their children's sleep and nursing needs.

beautifully stated.

[AppleCrisp]

Thanks to all of you for your replies - you've made some EXCELLENT points. I knew I could count on you! You have helped me tremendously.

I like co-sleeping; I'm just not enjoying being latched onto constantly (he never gets off, and if I pop him off, he wakes up and cries), and I am struggling with what to do during naps and before I go to bed. But these are questions for another thread

[WhaleinGaloshes]

You have hit on two biggest scare stories sold to parents, IMO: a) your child isn't sleeping 'well' and it's bad for him developmentally, physically, etc. and b) you are creating BAD HABITS that will haunt your child and your family forever.

Again, to me it just doesn't ring true. Babies are babies. We do things for them that they won't need done for the rest of their lives -- carry them, in most cases diaper them, the list goes on -- and no one tries to convince us that we'd better quit now or they'll never dress themselves or wipe their own behinds. The sleep issue hits us where we live because many of us are exhausted and our defenses are down.

And I agree with the others above that, assuming your son has energy and isn't falling asleep over his cheerios, he's probably much better rested than you are. I know that's the way it is in my house.

I think you're both doing just fine.

[Kailey's mom]

I was stressing about the whole not sleeping through the night thing for a while, i was feeling like something was wrong, kinda how you are feeling.

I stopped reading baby sleep books
I stopped worrying about it
I made sure it wasn't something physical ( made sure her reflux was under control)
and let go of the stress.

Now Kailey sleeps alot better even through the night twice

you are not doing any harm to your baby hun!!

[D_McG]

I spend time on a mainstream board and there was a thread one time about Sleeping Through The Night.

This mom was worried that her child wasn't STTN because she heard him wake a couple of times and 'fuss' back to sleep.

There were tons of responses and they ALL reassured her that her baby WAS STTN.

So basically it's STTN if he fusses himself back to sleep. But it's not if he nurses back to sleep? :

It's healthy if he wakes and puts his pacifier in his mouth but not if he wakes and puts my nipple in his mouth?

These are all the insane conclusions you have to draw if you go by Ferber's logic.

Forget about it!

[littlemizflava]

my dd never slept threw the night till she was 3 1/2 she woke up till then feeding 3-4 9oz bottles(clw she was having cows milk would not take ebm) and even now turning 5 she still dont sleep threw the night even night when she makes it threw the night without coming in to my bed i am amazed and feel like the bed is so huge without her sleeping on me or wake us up sometimes she wakes up and cant even get back to sleep good luck

[RockStarMom]

Originally Posted by kidspiration

your child's sleeping habits are entirely normal and biologically/developmentally appropriate.

damn this society that thinks that getting our little ones to sleep through the night and without parental intervention is the be-all-end-all.

how do you think you are doing harm by meeting your child's needs? i'm not understanding your question.

Ditto. It's our society's deep dark secret that most children don't sleep through the night for the first several years of their life. The ones who do almost certainly got that way from being left to CIO, which I'm sure you are aware of the dangers of.

My almost 20 month old still nurses to sleep for every nap and at night, and still nurses several times during the night. Nursing is the easiest, fastest, most joyful nap/nighttime parenting tool. I know she won't do this forever, so I treasure these special times.

[jillmamma]

Another thing I would like to point out is that around that age (between 12ish and 18/20 months), many kids are to the point where they may not be nursing at night so much for hunger/thirst as for comfort due to other reasons. Both of mine got their molars and eye teeth during that time, and woke a lot due to teething pain, nursing seemed to help a lot. Also, many kids are learning to walk, run, talk a lot more, use utensils, etc. so lots of developmental changes going on that could wake them too. Both of mine seem to be settling into sleeping all or most of the night at around 20/21 months. DD is sleeping all night about 1/2 the time now (she has all teeth but the 2 year molars), and it really seems to depend on how well she at her dinner the night before...if she picked at her food, she wakes at 2ish to nurse, otherwise, she goes right back to sleep on her own. So my take is, give it about 6 months, and I bet your child will be waking only once or twice vs. every 2 hours!

[superlori]

Originally Posted by AppleCrisp

I like co-sleeping; I'm just not enjoying being latched onto constantly (he never gets off, and if I pop him off, he wakes up and cries), and I am struggling with what to do during naps and before I go to bed. But these are questions for another thread

I don't know if this will help you, but it works with my baby - when you unlatch him while he's sleeping, try leaving your finger in his mouth to help with the transition. While he's sleeping (properly sleeping, in deep sleep, not REM sleep), he'll probably only be flutter sucking. When he stops fluttering, gently and slowly remove your finger. It may not work for you, but if you haven't tried that yet, it might work for him.

[momuveight2B]

Just add my two cents real quick. None of mine slept through the night until age 5 or 6, even after weaning. We CLW and nurse to sleep and back to sleep. As they outgrow the need they gradually need to nurse less and less so the long time periods you are experiencing now turn into seconds or just a few minutes. Then it is enough that they will just want to hug or stroke you as they fall asleep.

My older children are 10, 14, 15, 17 and 26, all of them know how to get themselves to sleep and have been doing it for many years. No harm done at all.

[arlecchina]

there's nothing unusual....think of it this way....reasonably thinking, do you *really* imagine you'll be present on your child's honeymoon someday so s/he can nurse to sleep?

[OGirlieMama]

I just wanted to throw something in about Ferber's assertions regarding sleep associations. That argument made soooooooooo much sense to me. I really believed it. And a few months ago, when my girls stopped falling to sleep while drinking their milk or lying in bed with me, I started putting them down awake in their cribs because I sort of felt I had no choice. Lo and behold, 9 out of 10 nights they just go to sleep. (The 10th night - tonight, BTW - they cry and I go get them, cuddle them, read a few more books, and try again) So, they go to sleep in their own cribs and they don't CIO. Oh, and they are identical twins, so they have the same biology and the same upbringing. These days, unless she's popping a tooth, Lilly sleeps through. But Kate wakes up every single night, at least once, and has to come sleep with us. So did I screw up Kate but somehow not her sister? I don't think so. It's just who they are.

It's so easy to bash yourself in the head every single day trying to figure out how to get your kids to sleep better. But barring the blatantly obvious (noise, uncomfortable temperature/jammies, etc) I don't think there's a darn thing you can do.

[AppleCrisp]

Update

Well, its going from bad to worse. I spent all afternoon taking apart the crib and putting the mattress on the floor. Same old story - slept soundly until 1 a.m., then up SCREAMING, rolling, and kicking for THREE HOURS. I don't know what I'm going to do. I haven't gotten any sleep in almost a week. The child simply will not sleep. I am at my wits end. And he wants to be latched on ALL NIGHT. I feel like I'm going to go nuts if I don't get those little teeth off my nipples for awhile. DH is so angry with me, angry at the whole situation, and won't help except to tell me he needs to Ferbered and its all my fault for setting him (DS) up for this by letting him sleep with us. I really have no ideas left at all except to have this child permanently attached to my boobs all night long.

Off to make some coffee and cry into my yogurt.

[D_McG]

Even when DS went to sleep by himself he still woke for me frequently. BUT (big but) it's always been very peaceful. He just wakes.. nurses.. back to sleep.

MDC always seems divided on things like this but in your situation I would absolutely night wean. How do you feel about that? I know it's not a magic bullet but figuring out different ways to calm him really can't hurt (IMHO).

re: your DH I think it's time to sit down and ask for respect and support. You did your best and there is no harm in recognizing that it's time for change. He should not hold that against you.

CIO is never a solution. But IMO crying with a caregiver in the context of change is an acceptable way of uncovering more peaceful nights for all of you.



eta: let me just say that waking every 2 hours doesn't bother me. I think DS does that often. But when nursing back to sleep is no longer a smooth process I think it's a sign that your baby is ready for change.

[mommy2two babes]

Originally Posted by AppleCrisp

The question I'm asking is - Ferber (there I said it) states that however the baby initially goes to sleep, that's what they'll need to get back to sleep when they partially wake up during the night. WHY is this incorrect? It seems remotely plausible to me.

I think it all depends on the babys personality. My DD was the type to want to sleep with my boob in her mouth all night if she could. She is still nursing to sleep at 2.5 and I love it. There is starting to be the occasional night now where nursing doesn't work, and I am dreading the end of nursing to sleep.
There have been a couple of times where I have thought and been told that I was "creating a monster" who would never go to sleep without me. It finally dawned on me, why would I want my kids to fall asleep on thier own without me? Sure I have the occasional fruterated night but I know I have an easier quicker time getting me DD to bed than alot quicker and easier than alot of moms I know. They are only little once and I know they won't still let me nurse them to sleep by the time they are in highschool lol
The reason that I say the back to sleep comment is not right for every baby,is because my DS is completely different. He will happily nurse to sleep and while he does nurse 1-2 times a night ( he is only 6 mos) he is happy to go to sleep if I rub his back or simple reach out and touch him.
One other thing, you said that it takes you an hour to nurse to sleep?
Have you tried a slightly later bedtime? It used to take me a while to get DD to sleep because she wasn't really tired. I started adjusting bedtime by 15 min or so each time for a few nights. It normally only takes her between 10 -15 min now.
HTH
Krista