ok, what do you do when a friend is informed and still wants to circ? - Page 2

[Yulia_R]

Originally Posted by Daisie125

I would say exactally what I have said to two good friends of mine.

"If you have your child circed, I will not be able to look at you without feeling like puking. So feel free to lose my phone number if you decide to circ"

I can't associate with someone who chops off body parts of babies knowing all the facts. I don't care how good of a 'friend' they are. They are an abusive parent. I don't associate with child abusers.

: with one correction: they are baby rapists. Strapping down against one's will, violating/damaging genitals is a definition of RAPE! And I don't associate with rapists.
yulia.

[PlayaMama]

Originally Posted by *mama moose*

.but she kept saying she was leaving it up to her DH, who wanted them to "look alike",

what about just suggesting she leave it up to her son? it's his penis, why not let him decide if he wants to be circ'd or not? i have a friend who got a circumcision at 23 because he wanted to.

especially if she's so "informed" about the reasons not to do it, how can she argue with that?

it's hard when you've got one good friend where you live. i've been through that and i honestly don't know if i would have been strong enough to ditch my only cool mama support over any one issue. luckily she had a girl and was anti-circ so i didn't have to worry about it.

good luck!

[blsilva]

mamamoose- I feel for you. I've been wrestling with the same question for a week now. My brother & SIL had their baby circumcised in spite of the fact that they knew all the info from when I researched it for my oldest ds, and I am having a really hard time getting past it.
They do so many other AP things for their baby, (and we're in california, too- what is with this state this week?), but on this, they just will not budge, and I cannot understand why.

[RiverSky]

Originally Posted by TigerTail

Ffft. Real men don't want their children tortured to assuage their own egos.

Children are human beings with rights and feelings, not custom-built accessories.

Yup.

And real women don't allow their husbands to mutilate their children.

[eepster]

I don't think she is really "leaving it up to daddy, who wants them all to look alike."

My suspition is that she can't face explaining to DS1 why she allowed this to happen to him, and is hoping that by circ'ing DS2 as well they will all live out the rest of their lives in denile.

If I'm correct, she must first allow herself to fell grief for the pain she caused her DS. She can not stand up for DS2 without admitting that what happened to DS1 was wrong and that she failed him. Those of us who are mommies know how horrible we feel anytime we think we failed to protect our DC.

[Lula's Mom]

I've removed several posts here because they were either a UAV, or quoted a UAV. Carry on with the topic at hand.

[NamastePlatypus]

Originally Posted by *mama moose*

yes, Fi, YES!! thank you! that is exactly what I was thinking!! and thanks for the hugs and stuff, this is really hard because shes pretty much my only friend in the area, we are training to become LLL leaders together (our current leader wants to schedule our meetings with her together, work together etc), but at the same time, just like I can't be friendly with people who hit their children, there is no way I can act like everything is ok if she is making a decision to let someone take a scalpel to her child. This is so frusturating.....

She is training to be a leader!? I hope she REALLLLLLY reads up on circ and the interfernces in the early BF relationship:

[NamastePlatypus]

Originally Posted by phatchristy

That "you'll understand when you have a son" is a load of bs. If ANYTHING, when you have a son you will feel MORE strongly about protecting his right to be intact. Honestly, I was an intactavist since I found out I was pregnant and researched circ 6 years ago. I had two girls in a row...then, when my son was born I felt MORE strongly than ever about circ.

Having a son, and seeing how perfect he is as he was born...it's just more obvious that circ is WRONG!

THIS is why I want to have all boys, does that make me weird?

I have a very good friend who circed her lil boy, we met when the boys were older. I don't think what I would have said would have made a difference. I know she worries how I feel about it might affect our friendship and I Iunderstand that. I love her to death: :l, yes I wish she would not have done it along with every other lil boy out there, but that was what they deciede to do. I hope that our boys can learn from each other. I think you can still be friends with somebody who feels differently than you, hell you never know what your friendship might influnce them to think say or do in the future. Friendship is about loving and supporting each other as well as learnign from one another.

[blsilva]

Originally Posted by NamastePlatypus

THIS is why I want to have all boys, does that make me weird?

Not in my book.
I thank God every day that I was given 2 little boys. I love little girls, but there are many who protect them, but who would circumcise a boy. I know that boys born to me will be protected and I celebrate that.

[Quirky]

Originally Posted by NamastePlatypus

She is training to be a leader!? I hope she REALLLLLLY reads up on circ and the interfernces in the early BF relationship:

Sadly, she wont' find that information in the LLL materials. :

[TigerTail]

Originally Posted by Quirky

Sadly, she wont' find that information in the LLL materials. :

unless she has access to the older material from before it was censored.

[D'smomma]

My suspition is that she can't face explaining to DS1 why she allowed this to happen to him, and is hoping that by circ'ing DS2 as well they will all live out the rest of their lives in denile.

So how do you get past this issue with someone...
Just me but I feel IF I made a mistake with #1 and later learned of the mistake I had made in ignorance than after learning all the information I may change my views with all children born after the first. I've done this with vaccination, discipline technique's, carseat safety and other issues. The more I learn the more my mothering evolves. Thankfully, I have never circ'd any of my children. How does that mistake some how justify, in the minds of some, repeating with further children especially if feeling guilt already for doing this to one child? I just trying to understand.

: I'm currently trying my hardest to talk my youngest sister out of circ'ing. She is currently pregnant and though we don't know the gender yet (I'm hoping she has a girl; she's hoping for a boy) she fully intends to mutilate any boy's she has. It totally makes me sick! I have given her a slew of information sent her video links - she argues. She is now saying it's up to her dh... he will go along with her wishes on this subject. She has circ'd both of her other boys so if it's a boy there is virtually no chance of me changing her mind. :
She finds out the gender in mid July...

[trmpetplaya]

Well... I know a family with four circumcised boys and one intact boy and none of the older ones even noticed that the youngest one was different, so I would use them as an example if someone had already circumcised one or more sons. I would also bring up the fact that it's easier to explain to the circumcised one that you learned that it wasn't necessary for his little brother than to explain to the younger one that you did it even though you knew better so that he would "match" his older brother. Especially if the younger one ended up with serious complications due to his circumcision... :

love and peace.

[*clementine*]

Originally Posted by RiverSky

Yup.

And real women don't allow their husbands to mutilate their children.

Wow.......gave me goosebumps.
Very nice wording.
And for the record...she so did not read all the lit. and then make an informed decision. BS.

[Mommiska]

Mama moose - I feel for you. Such a difficult situation.

I agree with eepster - that this could easily be about not wanting to acknowledge the harm caused to ds1. That is difficult for any mother to come to terms with. Perhaps somehow addressing that issue (as others have suggested) would help.

Have you tried with the father at all? If it really is an issue of 'matching daddy' (as she says), then perhaps the Penn & Teller video would be a good place to start with them? Just an idea...

[MommaLauraRN]

It must be frustrating when something you feel so strongly about can ruin a friendship. Most of my friends are my coworkers--we're all a bunch of mid-twenties to mid-thirties women with children ranging from 0-6 (and one more surprise baby due in July who if a boy will get to keep his foreskin just like his big brother!) Only one of them circ'd her two boys. Even before her first was born, people tried to talk her out of it. As smart and "natural" (vegetarian for awhile, BF, co-sleep, CD, H20 birth) as she seems, she still insisted on circing her boys. She said it was because of things she saw when she was a pedi ICU nurse and I think her DH had a lot of say in the matter as well. I think because her first didn't seem bothered by the procedure she didn't think twice about doing it to her second. However, she seemed to regret it more after her second because her milk came in sooner and he cried every time he peed until it healed. I've thought a lot about my friendship with her. Do I hate her? No. Do I hate what she knowingly did? Absolutely. Have I been able to look past her choices? For the most part. Aside from our drasticly different views on circumcision, I value our friendship. We share many of the same joys and challenges that come with raising two boys. What saddens me the most, is that her boys are in the minority when we all get together. I feel bad for them that they are the ones who are different from all the rest. Will it be more important for them to "match their daddy" or to match their friends? Their questions will rest with her. I'm sure this summer we will have beach days and I hope that seeing all the other little boys perfectly unscarred will make her question her choice. All I know is that I can sleep at night knowing that I will never have to try to explain to my children why I thought it would be okay to slice off a part of their penis. Rather than ending friendships with everyone who circs, I hope that by them seeing that my boys are not "dirty" and do not have problems with their whole penises, that it will give them an opportunity to see real penises as they were intended to be (during diaper changes etc, my kids don't run around naked...much!). Sadly, I never saw a real intact penis until I was in nursing school and I wan't better for the next generation!

[phsargent]

my response

I'm well aware that the internet is for slandering others anonymously, so to you I must say, Bravo/a!

None of you all know me, and yet you are able to call me an abusive parent, a rapist, a monster, et all. You know about my insecurities and my ego, and my need for my child to 'look like daddy' to make up for my yearning for my lost foreskin.

So for nailing someone you dont know, again, bravo/a.

But maybe you should know a little about me:

I worried tons about whether to circ or not circ. I was (am) worried about hyperspadia. I felt pushed in either direction concerning circ when my son was born, and felt like there was no right answer (still do).

Asked around for advice and support to not circ, but didnt get any at that time. The closest I came was my friend who is circ, but his brother is not. The friend chose not to circ, and told me if his son ever asked advice about being non-circ, he would say to talk to his brother.

Just a note: if I was to come to this site looking for support to not circ'ing when I was, this thread would not have been the place. So f'n nasty stuff that made me feel like poop and that I can do no good.

I do feel like I made the wrong choice with my first son. I watched the Penn and Teller BullS**t show and felt even worse afterwards. But the issue I am having now is that I feel I dont have the words/advice to give my upcoming son about why he is not circ'd while my first son is. I know I'll never 'have' the words until the situation comes up, and coming to this site isn't helping me any. I feel attacked (now I've waited two weeks to write anything back so I could cool down, but I still feel attacked). I feel like I was being judged by people who knew nothing about me. I was made to feel like an a-hole.

And if that was your intention with your responses, then congrats!

[carriebft]

Momma, if you are still there, here is how I would deal with circing one and not the other.

"When you were a baby, it was thought that taking off the foreskin was the right thing to do. But then doctors decided that we should leave it on." (rough thoughts I would probably change this but this is off the top of my head )

Modify that depending on the son you are talking to and add in comfort for him that there is nothing wrong with him for being circumcised or not circumcised and that you went with what you thought was right with the information you had. If they are a bit older when you talk about it, you could talk about tonsils...my husband, for example, had his taken out as routine after he had a few sore throats but we don't do that anymore to little boys.

[Lauren82]

Originally Posted by phsargent

I'm well aware that the internet is for slandering others anonymously, so to you I must say, Bravo/a!

None of you all know me, and yet you are able to call me an abusive parent, a rapist, a monster, et all. You know about my insecurities and my ego, and my need for my child to 'look like daddy' to make up for my yearning for my lost foreskin.

So for nailing someone you dont know, again, bravo/a.

But maybe you should know a little about me:

I worried tons about whether to circ or not circ. I was (am) worried about hyperspadia. I felt pushed in either direction concerning circ when my son was born, and felt like there was no right answer (still do).

Asked around for advice and support to not circ, but didnt get any at that time. The closest I came was my friend who is circ, but his brother is not. The friend chose not to circ, and told me if his son ever asked advice about being non-circ, he would say to talk to his brother.

Just a note: if I was to come to this site looking for support to not circ'ing when I was, this thread would not have been the place. So f'n nasty stuff that made me feel like poop and that I can do no good.

I do feel like I made the wrong choice with my first son. I watched the Penn and Teller BullS**t show and felt even worse afterwards. But the issue I am having now is that I feel I dont have the words/advice to give my upcoming son about why he is not circ'd while my first son is. I know I'll never 'have' the words until the situation comes up, and coming to this site isn't helping me any. I feel attacked (now I've waited two weeks to write anything back so I could cool down, but I still feel attacked). I feel like I was being judged by people who knew nothing about me. I was made to feel like an a-hole.

And if that was your intention with your responses, then congrats!

I'm a bit confused. : Who are you? The mama the OP was talking about?

[carriebft]

I think she is the person the OP was referring to, (maybe?)

But it seems she left her son intact (or will?) and is now wondering what to tell the sons when/if they talk about being different.