"Death by Veganism" NYT opinion piece - Page 8

[meowee]

I'd like to ask the omnis here what percentage overall of a healthy omni diet they believe animal products should be. So could you break down your belief for me in percentages, i.e. 50% vegan, 25% dairy, 25% meat for instance.

Oh, and please give me two sets of numbers: one for CHILDREN, the other for ADULTS.

[AJP]

All of Michael Pollan's stuff is available here (including Unhappy Meals): http://www.michaelpollan.com/write.php

G-Mama - I don't appreciate the implication that anyone who thinks raw, whole, grassfed milk is nutritionally different than pasteurized milk is ignorant. I actually do read many points of view that differ from my current position, because I like to be fully informed. I've read a lot of vegan-based nutritional information, when I was veg*n and now that I'm not. That Furhman newsletter is so full of holes, I don't have time to address even a fraction of them. WAPF does not have all the answers, IMO, and I disagree with them and their ilk about quite a few things (most notably feeding of babies and children), but Fuhrman resorts to just as many inaccuracies, exaggerations and selective use of information to distort Weston Price's work and lambaste the WAPF as the other side uses when they bash vegans.

FWIW, Weston Price's work happened long before any of the people using his name now were even born, and my personal opinion is that he wouldn't be too happy about some of the stuff put out there that uses his research as justification.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by vgnmama2keller

Plants do contain all the essential amino acids in adequate quantities to meet human needs, and even those of children (Millward).

Sure they do; but as I've pointed out in my PP, there are factors in plant foods that don't make nutrients as bioavailable as they are in animal foods.

In fact, a lot of the arguments he uses in promoting a plant-based diet I already addressed, and like I pointed out in criticism of Fuhrman, Robbins, and Campbell, getting nutrients from plants isn't as simple as just consuming them. Cows can do it, but we can't, so I wish they'd stop comparing us to herbivores.

There's one thing McDougall wrote that threw me off:

Vitamin D is not found in milk or meat, unless it is added during manufacturing. Sunlight is the proper source of this vitamin.

Planck doesn't say that vitamin D is found in milk. Vitamin D is found in fish, butter and egg yolk.

I've already addressed getting vitamin D from the sun in a PP, so I won't re-hash it here.

ETA:

I can't believe I missed this sentence:

"The human body has no difficulty converting plant-derived omega-3 fat, alpha linolenic acid, into DHA or other n-3 fatty acids, supplying our needs even during gestation and infancy."

That is true only for some people. The conversion of alpha linolenic acid into usable omega-3s is blocked in people with low levels of the enzyme delta 6 desaturase, especially those whose ancestors ate a lot of fish (like Native Americans).

[tboroson]

Originally Posted by meowee

I'd like to ask the omnis here what percentage overall of a healthy omni diet they believe animal products should be. So could you break down your belief for me in percentages, i.e. 50% vegan, 25% dairy, 25% meat for instance.

Oh, and please give me two sets of numbers: one for CHILDREN, the other for ADULTS.

Meowee, I don't think there is a single set of answers to that question. Every body is different. Furthermore, every body's needs change at different times of life, with different levels of activity, etc.

I do not discount the idea that a purely vegan diet can be healthful for some people. I'm not 100% comfortable with it, but I recognize that bodies are so vastly different, and the field of knowledge about nutrition is so contentious, that I don't fall into the trap of thinking *I* know something that most other people don't and pass judgment.

The level at which it starts becoming obvious to me that you're within range is at about 2% animal product and 98% plant matter. That animal product could be eggs, dairy or meat (preferably fish). I don't differentiate, not when generalizing (though one or two of those could be the "right" choice for a particular individual.)

At the other extreme, I think about 40% animal product and 60% vegetable. But I do think that's an extreme, probably for people who's body is lacking something and trying to recharge for a period of time.

I would guess the height of the bell curve probably falls between 10-25% of your diet.

I don't differentiate between milk, eggs or dairy because, again, different people's bodies react very differently to these things. Some people cannot safely eat one or more of those groups of food. Some feel gassy and have blood sugar swings with that portion of their diet is predominantly dairy. Others feel heavy and weighed down when it's meat. Some can substitute effectively between the different proteins without any negative effect.

When I stopped being veg after about 15 years, for a while I ate only an occasional portion of poultry and fish. But my body craved more and more. Eventually, I gave in to that. I ate meat pretty heavily for a while. It would seem that my body caught up to where it wanted to be in some respect, because I don't crave it as much anymore. I'd say, probably 15% of my diet is animal product, and at least half of that is dairy. While I feel best when I have meat frequently, it does not have to be large portions.

[caedmyn]

Something to consider with a largely plant-based diet, whether vegan or omni...most plant foods, which the exception of most of the grains and legumes and a very few veggies and fruits, contain a natural pesticide called salicylates. Salicylates have to be detoxed by the liver, and everyone has a finite capacity for detoxing them. IIRC the capacity of the average person is 16 mg/day...if you eat several pieces of fruit a day, to say nothing of leafy greens, coconut or EVOO, nuts, cocoa, etc, it's highly likely that you're putting a lot of strain on your liver, even if you have no apparent problems related to salicylate consumption. And symptoms of eating too many salicylates can be very subtle, like slightly impaired social skills (speaking from personal experience...I always wondered why I was so awkward in social situations, and now I know). And unlike some plant compounds like oxalates, phytates, and lectins, there's no really no way to lower salicylate contect by preparing foods differently (although peeling and/or discarding outer parts of fruits and veggies will lower salicylate content somewhat).

I suspect this is one of the reasons that the native populations that Dr. Price studied tended to base their diets around either animal products or grains/legumes, which don't contain salicylates.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by tboroson

Meowee, I don't think there is a single set of answers to that question. Every body is different. Furthermore, every body's needs change at different times of life, with different levels of activity, etc.

I do not discount the idea that a purely vegan diet can be healthful for some people. I'm not 100% comfortable with it, but I recognize that bodies are so vastly different, and the field of knowledge about nutrition is so contentious, that I don't fall into the trap of thinking *I* know something that most other people don't and pass judgment.

The level at which it starts becoming obvious to me that you're within range is at about 2% animal product and 98% plant matter. That animal product could be eggs, dairy or meat (preferably fish). I don't differentiate, not when generalizing (though one or two of those could be the "right" choice for a particular individual.)

At the other extreme, I think about 40% animal product and 60% vegetable. But I do think that's an extreme, probably for people who's body is lacking something and trying to recharge for a period of time.

I would guess the height of the bell curve probably falls between 10-25% of your diet.

I don't differentiate between milk, eggs or dairy because, again, different people's bodies react very differently to these things. Some people cannot safely eat one or more of those groups of food. Some feel gassy and have blood sugar swings with that portion of their diet is predominantly dairy. Others feel heavy and weighed down when it's meat. Some can substitute effectively between the different proteins without any negative effect.

When I stopped being veg after about 15 years, for a while I ate only an occasional portion of poultry and fish. But my body craved more and more. Eventually, I gave in to that. I ate meat pretty heavily for a while. It would seem that my body caught up to where it wanted to be in some respect, because I don't crave it as much anymore. I'd say, probably 15% of my diet is animal product, and at least half of that is dairy. While I feel best when I have meat frequently, it does not have to be large portions.

What a good post.

I was thinking maybe 3-6% animal stuff- not nec flesh at all, for my kids and less for dh and me. It didn't take much for my headaches to go away. Maybe a little yogurt, or an egg a few times a week, a small amount of baked fish. I don't even think flesh is necessary for dh & me, but I think some people do need it. For my nursing toddlers I found a couple of eggs a week, some organic cheese with that avo & pita. Whatever they'd eat. If a breatfed toddler isn't picky and chows down his organic tempeh and seeds and avo, cool. My kids eat all that and turkey. (Well, one just went back to being a lacto-ovo veg). I do freak out at non organic soy in any form for anyone. I can't see a diet of Morning Star farms (GMO) for small kids.

[G-Mama]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

Something to consider with a largely plant-based diet, whether vegan or omni...most plant foods, which the exception of most of the grains and legumes and a very few veggies and fruits, contain a natural pesticide called salicylates. Salicylates have to be detoxed by the liver, and everyone has a finite capacity for detoxing them. IIRC the capacity of the average person is 16 mg/day...if you eat several pieces of fruit a day, to say nothing of leafy greens, coconut or EVOO, nuts, cocoa, etc, it's highly likely that you're putting a lot of strain on your liver, even if you have no apparent problems related to salicylate consumption. And symptoms of eating too many salicylates can be very subtle, like slightly impaired social skills (speaking from personal experience...I always wondered why I was so awkward in social situations, and now I know). And unlike some plant compounds like oxalates, phytates, and lectins, there's no really no way to lower salicylate contect by preparing foods differently (although peeling and/or discarding outer parts of fruits and veggies will lower salicylate content somewhat).

I suspect this is one of the reasons that the native populations that Dr. Price studied tended to base their diets around either animal products or grains/legumes, which don't contain salicylates.

Seems like you may be mistaken.

http://jcp.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/56/9/649

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by G-Mama

Seems like you may be mistaken.

http://jcp.bmj.com/cgi/content/extract/56/9/649

Actually there's been quite a bit of research on the negative effects that salicylates can have. Perhaps in small dose they are beneficial to some people who are not overly sensitive, but I have personally experienced the deterimental effects of consuming too many salicylates, and I have seen the effects on my DD as well. I have also read many, many other stories of people who have suffered from the effects of salicylates. Quite a few children with autism or ADD/ADHD have problems with salicylates as well.

http://www.cs.nsw.gov.au/rpa/Allergy/default.htm This is a link to the hospital in Australia that pioneered the research in food chemicals like salicylates. There have been several books published on this subject ("Fed Up", "Fed Up with ADHD", and "Fed Up With Asthma", all by Sue Dengate)...unfortunately they were published in New Zealand and are very hard to find in this country. Sue Dengate's website is www.fedupwithfoodadditives.info www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.com is another website that discusses food chemical intolerances and also lists amounts of salicylates in common foods.

[catnip]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

Quite a few children with autism or ADD/ADHD have problems with salicylates as well.

No, this is incorrect. Sensitivity to salicylates can produce symptoms that mimic ADD/ADHD, but someone who has true ADD/ADHD is not helped by eliminating salicylates.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by catnip

No, this is incorrect. Sensitivity to salicylates can produce symptoms that mimic ADD/ADHD, but someone who has true ADD/ADHD is not helped by eliminating salicylates.

What's your definition of "true ADD/ADHD"? I have read quite a few stories of kids diagnosed with ADD or ADHD who were helped by the Failsafe diet (which eliminates salicylates for those sensitive to them). "Fed Up with ADHD" also mentions a study where a high percentage (75% or greater, don't remember the exact number) of kids with ADD or ADHD showed improvement after implementing the Failsafe diet.

[newcastlemama]

I pretty much agree with tboroson on the ratio of animal to plant foods answer. As an omni, I still think that vegetables and other plant foods are amazing foods that promote health but we still need animal products along with them to maximize the plant foods benefits. If it was laid out on a plate, I eat about 1/4 meat 1/2 vegetable 1/4 starchy veg or rice with a couple tbs of fat. I think veggies are great for gettingin all those minerals, but we need the retinol in animal products and fat to untilize them.

[melissa17s]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

Actually there's been quite a bit of research on the negative effects that salicylates can have. Perhaps in small dose they are beneficial to some people who are not overly sensitive, but I have personally experienced the deterimental effects of consuming too many salicylates, and I have seen the effects on my DD as well. I have also read many, many other stories of people who have suffered from the effects of salicylates. Quite a few children with autism or ADD/ADHD have problems with salicylates as well.

http://www.cs.nsw.gov.au/rpa/Allergy/default.htm This is a link to the hospital in Australia that pioneered the research in food chemicals like salicylates. There have been several books published on this subject ("Fed Up", "Fed Up with ADHD", and "Fed Up With Asthma", all by Sue Dengate)...unfortunately they were published in New Zealand and are very hard to find in this country. Sue Dengate's website is www.fedupwithfoodadditives.info www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.com is another website that discusses food chemical intolerances and also lists amounts of salicylates in common foods.

Isn't the Feingold diet the avoiding the same chemicals- ones that are aspirin like? Not everyone is sensitive to them, though.

Another thing that can irritate the liver and cause damage is over eating meat.

[meowee]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

Something to consider with a largely plant-based diet, whether vegan or omni...most plant foods, which the exception of most of the grains and legumes and a very few veggies and fruits, contain a natural pesticide called salicylates. Salicylates have to be detoxed by the liver, and everyone has a finite capacity for detoxing them. IIRC the capacity of the average person is 16 mg/day...if you eat several pieces of fruit a day, to say nothing of leafy greens, coconut or EVOO, nuts, cocoa, etc, it's highly likely that you're putting a lot of strain on your liver, even if you have no apparent problems related to salicylate consumption. And symptoms of eating too many salicylates can be very subtle, like slightly impaired social skills (speaking from personal experience...I always wondered why I was so awkward in social situations, and now I know). And unlike some plant compounds like oxalates, phytates, and lectins, there's no really no way to lower salicylate contect by preparing foods differently (although peeling and/or discarding outer parts of fruits and veggies will lower salicylate content somewhat).

I suspect this is one of the reasons that the native populations that Dr. Price studied tended to base their diets around either animal products or grains/legumes, which don't contain salicylates.

This has to be the nuttiest warning against vegan foods I've ever read. If this "poison" is so toxic why are vegans not dropping dead in droves from liver failure? And never mind that many vegan foods have practically miraculous effects on the liver... like carrot juice.

[catnip]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

What's your definition of "true ADD/ADHD"? I have read quite a few stories of kids diagnosed with ADD or ADHD who were helped by the Failsafe diet (which eliminates salicylates for those sensitive to them). "Fed Up with ADHD" also mentions a study where a high percentage (75% or greater, don't remember the exact number) of kids with ADD or ADHD showed improvement after implementing the Failsafe diet.

According to the doctors that treated me as a child, the children whose symtoms improve with dietary changes have a food intolerance. ADD/ADHD is supposed to only be diagnosed when no other cause for the symptoms can be discovered (common other causes are subtle sensory disabilities, psychological trauma, illness, allergies). Unfortunately, many children are being placed on ADHD medications without first checking for all the other possible causes. 25 years ago, it took visits to a neurologist, a psychiatrist, and a pediatrician, 6 months on the Feingold diet and a year of other tests (hearing, sight, EEG, blood workups) before ADD/ADHD drugs were prescribed. Now the drugs are prescribed by pediatricians, often on the first visit, based mostly on reports from school counselors, without much further testing at all.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by catnip

According to the doctors that treated me as a child, the children whose symtoms improve with dietary changes have a food intolerance. ADD/ADHD is supposed to only be diagnosed when no other cause for the symptoms can be discovered (common other causes are subtle sensory disabilities, psychological trauma, illness, allergies). Unfortunately, many children are being placed on ADHD medications without first checking for all the other possible causes. 25 years ago, it took visits to a neurologist, a psychiatrist, and a pediatrician, 6 months on the Feingold diet and a year of other tests (hearing, sight, EEG, blood workups) before ADD/ADHD drugs were prescribed. Now the drugs are prescribed by pediatricians, often on the first visit, based mostly on reports from school counselors, without much further testing at all.

Well then according to studies all children with ADD/ADHD should be trialed on the Failsafe diet, and if it doesn't help they can truly be diagnosed with ADD/ADHD.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by meowee

This has to be the nuttiest warning against vegan foods I've ever read. If this "poison" is so toxic why are vegans not dropping dead in droves from liver failure? And never mind that many vegan foods have practically miraculous effects on the liver... like carrot juice.

I specifically stated that ANYONE who eats a lot of these foods should consider the possible effect of salicylates. There are plenty of omnis, particularly in this forum, who eat loads of veggies, fruits, coconut oil, etc.

And I never said that plant foods couldn't have beneficial effects...but if someone is sensitive to salicylates, carrot juice is going to stress their liver, not be beneficial.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by melissa17s

Isn't the Feingold diet the avoiding the same chemicals- ones that are aspirin like? Not everyone is sensitive to them, though.

Another thing that can irritate the liver and cause damage is over eating meat.

Feingold diet isn't strict enough for many people, and Failsafe also eliminates a lot of other food chemicals that Feingold doesn't touch. Also, while not everyone is overly sensitive, EVERYONE has a tolerance level. Some people may have a very high tolerance level, but as I mentioned in a previous post, a study found that the average tolerance level for salicylates for normal healthy people is 16 mg/day. To put that in perspective, if you eat 1/2 cup of figs, a cup of green grapes, a cup of raspberries, and 1/2 cup of almonds in a day, that'd be roughly 16 mgs of salicylates.

Funny how none of the groups that Dr. Price studied who ate tons of meat had liver damage, or any health problems at all. I imagine eating commercial meat with all its antibiotics and growth hormones is hard on the liver because all that stuff is detoxed through the liver. I highly doubt there are any studies showing that grass-fed/pastured meat is linked to liver problems, or any other health problems. If someone's seen a study to that effect, I'd love to see links.

My point in posting my OP was not to bash vegan diets, but to hopefully make anyone who eats a lot of plant based foods other than grains and legumes aware of the possible detrimental effects of salicylates. There are an awful lot of kids out there with ASD, ADD/ADHD, eczema, multiple food allergies/intolerances...all of which have been linked to salicylates (among other things of course). If you don't feel this information applies to you, disregard it. That doesn't mean it's invalid for many people, or that people shouldn't hear about it.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

Funny how none of the groups that Dr. Price studied who ate tons of meat had liver damage, or any health problems at all.

that is funny. no health problems at all? that is really just laughable.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by magstphil

that is funny. no health problems at all? that is really just laughable.

You're welcome to read the book and see for yourself. "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Dr. Weston A Price. None of the groups he studied who ate their traditional foods had health problems although they ate a wide variety of different diets, albiet all with some animal products. Some ate only small amounts of animal products, while others ate almost exclusively animal products.

[athansor]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

You're welcome to read the book and see for yourself. "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Dr. Weston A Price. None of the groups he studied who ate their traditional foods had health problems although they ate a wide variety of different diets, albiet all with some animal products. Some ate only small amounts of animal products, while others ate almost exclusively animal products.

I admit I haven't read the book, but I do know it was written 60 years ago. So, for someone who has read the book, what techniques did he use in his research to determine that people had no liver damage and no health problems?