"Death by Veganism" NYT opinion piece - Page 9

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by athansor

I admit I haven't read the book, but I do know it was written 60 years ago. So, for someone who has read the book, what techniques did he use in his research to determine that people had no liver damage and no health problems?

:

and i'm sorry but no diet is health gold with no illness at all ever occuring in the people who follow it. sorry. just doesn't work that way. veg*ns and TF/omnis can still get cancer. it's less among veg*n, yes, but not an impossiblity.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by athansor

I admit I haven't read the book, but I do know it was written 60 years ago. So, for someone who has read the book, what techniques did he use in his research to determine that people had no liver damage and no health problems?

Let me rephrase that...they had no apparent health problems. No cancer, no heart disease, no diabetes, no bowel disorders, no eczema, few if any dental cavities, no crowded teeth, easy childbirths, etc. Most had no doctors because they had no need of them. The elderly people were still very active and healthy even at advanced ages.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by magstphil

:

and i'm sorry but no diet is health gold with no illness at all ever occuring in the people who follow it. sorry. just doesn't work that way. veg*ns and TF/omnis can still get cancer. it's less among veg*n, yes, but not an impossiblity.

It's well-documented in the book. Today I don't believe it's possible to be totally disease-free because of other factors like depleted soils, environmental toxins, high stress levels, etc, but it did happen among the groups that Dr. Price studied.

[catnip]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

Well then according to studies all children with ADD/ADHD should be trialed on the Failsafe diet, and if it doesn't help they can truly be diagnosed with ADD/ADHD.

Potentially, yes, though I don't believe Failsafe is being recommended by most mainstream doctors. Unfortunately, since kids with food sensitivities also have symptom improvement with drug treatment and popping a pill once a day is more convenient than following a complicated diet plan, the step of dietary changes is usually skipped.

I haven't run across references to Failsafe in my research, so I doubt that the leading experts on ADD/ADHD are recommending it at this time, but I strongly suggest that any child diagnosed with ADD/ADHD try a few dietary modification theories before being subjected to the serious risks of drug therapy. Ritalin, Adderal etc. have been linked to growth retardation, obsessive/compulsive behavior, paranoia, learning extremely unhealthy eating patterns, confusion over hunger signals, and obesity (when the medication is stopped).

[catnip]

Originally Posted by meowee

I'd like to ask the omnis here what percentage overall of a healthy omni diet they believe animal products should be. So could you break down your belief for me in percentages, i.e. 50% vegan, 25% dairy, 25% meat for instance.

Oh, and please give me two sets of numbers: one for CHILDREN, the other for ADULTS.

My theory is as little as possible. I think adults should limit animal products to a few times a week at most, and kids 1-2 servings a day at most.

My reasons for this are the fact that I feel that the implications of global warming, ozone depletion and other environmental factors exacerbated by large scale meat production are going to be more dangerous in the long run than any theoretical nutritional deficit. I feel that small scale livestock has benefits, but we don't have the resources on this planet to support all humans eating meat everyday, and if we keep going the way we are, we're not going to be able to turn back. Yes pastured beef and dairy are environmentally superior to feedlot products, BUT we have too many people to feed us all that way.

[newcastlemama]

Originally Posted by athansor

I admit I haven't read the book, but I do know it was written 60 years ago. So, for someone who has read the book, what techniques did he use in his research to determine that people had no liver damage and no health problems?

The book is online for free:
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_lib.../pricetoc.html

Isolated and modernized Australian Aborigines
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_lib...e/price10.html

Just scroll throught the chapters and look at the pictures if you don't want to read it. It is truly amazing. About the health problems--In the Massai (African tribe) group, I read that someone did autopsies and found no heart disease and they had other markers for cardiovascular health. (If anyone knows where that info is please post!) They ate mostly milk meat and blood. So, if meat causes all these health problems, why were these people so healthy?http://journeytoforever.org/farm_lib...ce/price9.html

One wonders at the apparent health of the natives until he learns of the unique immunity they have developed and which is largely transmitted to the offspring. In several districts we were told that practically every living native had had typhus fever and was immune, though the lice from their bodies could transmit the disease. One also wonders why people with such resistance to disease are not able to combat the degenerative diseases of modern civilization. When they adopt modern civilization they then become susceptible to several of our modern degenerative processes, including tooth decay.

Dr. Anderson who is in charge of a splendid government hospital in Kenya, assured me that in several years of service among the primitive people of that district he had observed that they did not suffer from appendicitis, gall bladder trouble, cystitis and duodenal ulcer. Malignancy was also very rare among the primitives.

It is of great significance that we studied six tribes in which there appeared to be not a single tooth attacked by dental caries nor a single malformed dental arch.

I agree that no diet could provide the level of health that these people enjoyed because of the factors Caedmyn listed, but I do believe they give us general ideas of what to eat to lessen our chances of disease and live well.

Jen

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by catnip

Potentially, yes, though I don't believe Failsafe is being recommended by most mainstream doctors. Unfortunately, since kids with food sensitivities also have symptom improvement with drug treatment and popping a pill once a day is more convenient than following a complicated diet plan, the step of dietary changes is usually skipped.

I haven't run across references to Failsafe in my research, so I doubt that the leading experts on ADD/ADHD are recommending it at this time, but I strongly suggest that any child diagnosed with ADD/ADHD try a few dietary modification theories before being subjected to the serious risks of drug therapy. Ritalin, Adderal etc. have been linked to growth retardation, obsessive/compulsive behavior, paranoia, learning extremely unhealthy eating patterns, confusion over hunger signals, and obesity (when the medication is stopped).

Unfortunately Failsafe is almost unheard of in the United States, even among alternative medicine practitioners, because the research was done in Australia and the books on it were published in New Zealand.

[Individuation]

Originally Posted by meowee

I'd like to ask the omnis here what percentage overall of a healthy omni diet they believe animal products should be. So could you break down your belief for me in percentages, i.e. 50% vegan, 25% dairy, 25% meat for instance.

Oh, and please give me two sets of numbers: one for CHILDREN, the other for ADULTS.

Well, here's my take on things in my family:

ME (female, 31): Vegan in all of my "alone time" eating. I will eat dairy at family dinner. While pregnant and nursing, I will eat small-farmed hormone-free beef or safe fish once or twice a month. I do not eat pork or chicken at all. I do all the food shopping for the family. We spend insane amounts of money on fresh produce every week--my aversion to meat doesn't save us a cent. I'm not a big legume/pulse/nut person, so a lot of my protein avenues are closed off. I'd like to be totally vegan. I cook for the family--I don't use broths or other meat products. I do use dairy, but sparingly. I will eat baked goods with animal products (butter, milk) in them, while pregnant, if craving them.

DH (male, 31): Seems to need a bit more animal product than me in his diet. Eats like me at home, eats some meat while out and at work.

DD (9): Eats like me with extra eggs and dairy (brings cheese in her school lunch every day). Eats meat when visiting her father.

I don't know how that would stack up as a family-wide percentage?

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

a study found that the average tolerance level for salicylates for normal healthy people is 16 mg/day. To put that in perspective, if you eat 1/2 cup of figs, a cup of green grapes, a cup of raspberries, and 1/2 cup of almonds in a day, that'd be roughly 16 mgs of salicylates.

There are an awful lot of kids out there with ASD, ADD/ADHD, eczema, multiple food allergies/intolerances...all of which have been linked to salicylates (among other things of course). If you don't feel this information applies to you, disregard it. That doesn't mean it's invalid for many people, or that people shouldn't hear about it.

What you wrote has given me pause. My dd can easily eat more than 16 mg of salicylates a day; I know I can too, especially during the summer.

Ironically, when I was strictly on the Atkins diet last year, and increasing the variety of fruits and vegetables in my diet, I started getting really bad hives, but I thought it was stress. I wonder if it's because I increased the amount of salicylate-rich foods? I looked on the list available here, and here is where my favorite foods fall:

Moderate: lettuces other than iceberg, mushrooms, black olives, desiccated coconut, peanut butter, walnuts.

High: Avocado , broccoli, fresh spinach, tomato puree, pistachio.

Very high: blackberry, blueberry, strawberry, chilli peppers, endive, tinned green olives, peppers, radish, water chestnut, almonds, coconut oil, olive oil.

Lately I've realized that I'm sensitive to black pepper. But that is on the extremely high list, along with many wonderful spices.

I also notice that I can't take coconut oil straight from a spoon without feeling weird.

This really sucks. It will be hard to eliminate these things from my diet!

Quickly looking over this list, I notice that meats, eggs, dairy and grains have virtually no salicylates (and are what a lot of the healthy groups WAP studied ate).

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

Let me rephrase that...they had no apparent health problems. No cancer, no heart disease, no diabetes, no bowel disorders, no eczema, few if any dental cavities, no crowded teeth, easy childbirths, etc. Most had no doctors because they had no need of them. The elderly people were still very active and healthy even at advanced ages.

In addition, Price marveled at their cheerful disposition (despite harsh living conditions) and lack of any mental disorders or depression.

Admittedly, it is a small sample, only 14 groups of people. But they all had good mental and physical health in common, and I think it's worth learning what made these people unique.

[catnip]

Originally Posted by newcastlemama

The book is online for free:
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_lib.../pricetoc.html

Isolated and modernized Australian Aborigines
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_lib...e/price10.html

Just scroll throught the chapters and look at the pictures if you don't want to read it. It is truly amazing. About the health problems--In the Massai (African tribe) group, I read that someone did autopsies and found no heart disease and they had other markers for cardiovascular health. (If anyone knows where that info is please post!) They ate mostly milk meat and blood. So, if meat causes all these health problems, why were these people so healthy?http://journeytoforever.org/farm_lib...ce/price9.html

I bet that the benefits can be laid on the activity level more than anything else. There's a good reason we like sweet and fatty foods - we are adapted for a lifestyle where we burn off those calories, not a lifestyle where the most active among us barely get enough exercise.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by catnip

I bet that the benefits can be laid on the activity level more than anything else. There's a good reason we like sweet and fatty foods - we are adapted for a lifestyle where we burn off those calories, not a lifestyle where the most active among us barely get enough exercise.

My take on that is that their healthy diets made them want to be active, and they enjoyed it. These groups clearly had a sense of joie de vivre.

[catnip]

Ok, so I did some mental calculations while nursing my daughter down for her nap. On a day that I am happy with what the family all ate, this is what our diet looks like, mostly organic, local and some homegrown:

DH- (Postal carrier-walks 10-15 miles on a work day. Muscular/trim body type, maintaining weight with this. Drinks at least 120 ounces of water)

Breakfast: 1 cup oatmeal with raisins, sunflower seeds and molasses

Snacks- 4 pieces of fresh fruit

Lunch- 4 slices of whole grain bread, 1/4-1/2 cup of organic peanut butter, home made organic jam or honey

2 cups of diluted fruit juice with added electrolytes

Dinner- 2-3 servings of vegetables, 2 servings of beans or tofu, 2-3 servings of rice, quinoa, or whole grain pasta. 1-2 servings of yogurt or cheese.

Dessert (after DD is asleep)- 1 ounce fair trade organic dark chocolate, or 8 ounces organic frozen yogurt or a homemade cookie or 2 ( I freeze portioned dough and bake them 1-2 at a time)



DD- (2 years, tall and average weight)

morning nursing

breakfast- 1 cup of oatmeal with raisins, sunflower seeds and molasses or maple syrup, (usually eats it all) 4 ounces of low fat milk.

after breakfast, I put out her snack tray, which has 2 compartments of fruit, one of diced organic cheese, one of cubed tofu, one of natural graham crackers spread with PB, one of wholegrain crackers with goat cheese, one of nuts, one of raw vegetables. She has a 12 ounce water bottle that she sips from all day.

a few bites of my salad

naptime nursing

dinner: fried rice- brown rice, finely minced veggies, olive oil and an egg

dessert- plain yogurt and fresh or frozen unsweetened fruit

bedtime nursing



Me- (average housewife activity levels plus either an hour brisk walking or heavy yard work most days. Overweight, but losing. 100 ounces of water a day)

Breakfast- 1 tsp olive oil, 1 tablespoon curry powder, 3 ounces of tofu, 3 ounces spinach, 1/4 onion, handful sliced mushrooms, half a whole wheat pita, 1 serving of seasonal fruit.

Snack- whole grain crackers and hummus

Lunch- 4 cups fresh lettuce (from our garden), half an avocado, half a diced mango, some red onion, 1 tsp oil and a generous splash of balsamic vinegar.

Snack- 2 graham crackers with pbj

Dinner- 3-4 servings veggies, 1 serving protein, 1 serving dairy (sometimes) 2 servings whole grains

Dessert- 1/2 ounce fair trade organic dark chocolate, or 4 ounces organic frozen yogurt or a homemade cookie

[catnip]

Originally Posted by Chicharronita

My take on that is that their healthy diets made them want to be active, and they enjoyed it. These groups clearly had a sense of joie de vivre.

We can want to be active all we want in this society, but it's hard to get enough exercise when you spend 8-10 hours a day chained to a desk rather than doing something physically active. According to our chiropractor, the human body functions best when in motion about 12 hours a day.


I also get a glimpse of the satisfaction that comes from growing your own food in my garden. There's a blissful sense of rightness that I get looking at my garden or walking through a farmer's market that grocery stores don't provide. That feeling does wonders for my mental health, and I imagine that it would be even more pronounced in someone who meets more of their own needs through personal work. Holding a basket of fresh picked veggies is a whole lot more profound than holding a piece of paper with little numbers on it. I'm not sure I'm expressing this well, so maybe I'll think on it some more on it and post again.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by catnip

We can want to be active all we want in this society, but it's hard to get enough exercise when you spend 8-10 hours a day chained to a desk rather than doing something physically active. According to our chiropractor, the human body functions best when in motion about 12 hours a day.

Well, lots of people may want to be active, but many don't feel well enough to take even a 15 minute walk every day. That's sad.

[catnip]

Originally Posted by Chicharronita

Well, lots of people may want to be active, but many don't feel well enough to take even a 15 minute walk every day. That's sad.

You know what, though? You get up and take that 15 minute walk, and it boosts your energy, and you get more done. Activity boosts your energy and elevates your mood. When I stared walking or doing heavy yard work (and by this, I mean mowing the lawn with a 60 year-old reel mower, or clearing the edges of the gardens with hand tools) everyday, I found myself getting more accomplished and having more energy.

When DH was a teacher, he would never have had the energy to come home from work, spend 2 hours double digging the tomato beds, turn the compost, then weed the lettuce, then help with housework, and on about 6 hours of sleep a night. Now that he walks 15 miles everyday, he does. I'm at nowhere near that activity level, but I totally see the correlation with me too.


The thing is, people in less technologically advanced societies don't have the option to be sedentary. You work, and work hard, or you don't eat. It's that simple.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by catnip

You know what, though? You get up and take that 15 minute walk, and it boosts your energy, and you get more done. Activity boosts your energy and elevates your mood.

That's not necessarily true. Back at the height of my youth (mid-twenties to mid-thirties), I was eating a high-soy, virtually no meat or dairy diet. I started this to help with my PMS and to be "healthy."

Instead what I got was worsening PMS and depression, even worse menstrual cramps, ovarian cyst, uterine fibroid (these required surgical removal) and endometriosis.

In the further interest of being healthy, I made myself go for walks every day, for at least 1/2 an hour. I felt even more exhausted. I needed to take a nap after work.

The thing is, people in less technologically advanced societies don't have the option to be sedentary. You work, and work hard, or you don't eat. It's that simple.

Sounds really painful, the way you put it (although it's probably true). Even so, the people Price studied were cheerfully doing the hard work. I doubt I could do that, and I certainly couldn't have done it on my previous diet.

[caedmyn]

Chicharronita--feel free to PM me if you want more information about salicylates or the Failsafe diet.

One popular food I forgot to mention that is very high in salicylates...honey

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by caedmyn

Chicharronita--feel free to PM me if you want more information about salicylates or the Failsafe diet.

Thanks! I just got done printing a bunch of discouraging info.

One popular food I forgot to mention that is very high in salicylates...honey

<puts fingers in ears> La, la, la, la, la, I can't hear you!

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by Chicharronita

Thanks! I just got done printing a bunch of discouraging info.



<puts fingers in ears> La, la, la, la, la, I can't hear you!

I so hear you...life would be so much easier if I'd never heard about salicylates!