"Death by Veganism" NYT opinion piece - Page 10

[catnip]

Originally Posted by Chicharronita

...In the further interest of being healthy, I made myself go for walks every day, for at least 1/2 an hour. I felt even more exhausted. I needed to take a nap after work.

I'm not discounting the possibility that some people are sensitive to soy (or other foods) ... I can't eat wheat during my menstrual period. People have different dietary needs and what one person thrives on, another might not. But for an average person without dietary intolerances or abnormally low iron absorbtion (for example) it is a different matter.

Sounds really painful, the way you put it (although it's probably true). Even so, the people Price studied were cheerfully doing the hard work. I doubt I could do that, and I certainly couldn't have done it on my previous diet.

Here's a fact that you have to consider. Hard work, when it is getting you food, shelter and clothing, directly and immediately, is IMMENSELY satisfying. We could very easily get any of the food in our garden from a grocery store, a farmer's market or a CSA, but we grow it our self, and it is hard work, because it is satisfying. Imagine the feeling of standing up from thinning a row of carrots, looking at the wheat that is ripening, seeing the chickens in the tractor picking at the bugs, a clothesline full of handmade clothes drying in the sun, with a pot of homegrown stew on the stove and a pantry full of the things that you have grown and put up. I get a glimpse of that feeling, and it makes me happy to get up in the morning and start working. Working out at a gym or just taking a walk for the sake of exercise does not have nearly the same effect as bicycling to work every day does. Yeah, the first time I did the 2 mile ride to my office (weighing nearly 400 pounds) I thought I was gonna die! But that warm gooey feeling of getting there under my own power was amazing. I lost over 125 pounds in that year, (then got pregnant)

What I'm trying to say is that are major NON-DIETARY factors that are not being considered in this theory.

I'm not a fanatical vegetarian, even though I'm mostly vegan. I feel that leather shoes are superior to and more sustainable than alternatives, so I wear them. I don't think there's anything really wrong with eating meat once in a while (I don't like the stuff, myself), and I think a little bit of eggs and dairy are pretty harmless. But the earth just can't handle animal based meals for an everyday thing. Certainly not for an every meal thing.

[melissa17s]

Catnip, I totally agree about the physical activity. I ride my bike during warmer weather, and feel so much better than during the snowy months. Also, your body assimulates vitamins and minerals better when you are exercising. You can not absorb as much calcium if you are sedentary because you need a chemical reaction that only occurs with active muscles.

[newcastlemama]

Price presents a lot of evidence that retinol was a major factor in mineral absorbsion. Retinol is only found in animal products and it is estimated that native people's took in about 50,000 IU/ day. In light of his studies and observations, excercise would seem like a less important factor in mineral utilization than retinol. I can agree there are many factors at work, but I think that nutrition is one of major signifigance. Especially since he found that once people switched to modern foods they had apparent degeneration.

If someone can find this also...I remember reading that Price set out thinking that a vegetarian diet was the healthiest then came to the conclusion later that it was not necessary for optimal health.

[UUMom]

I am not all over WP, but today I worked my garden, and as I did so, the sweat was pouring off me. At one point, I though "Wow. It would be so much easier to shop". But now, at the end of the day, I have fed and cared for 20 hens, and put in a whole garden (raised beds-- which meant dragging dirt all over).

And while I still needed years of orthodontia , the whole deal of growing your own food and eggs in an organic, healthy way is incredibly satisfying.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by catnip

What I'm trying to say is that are major NON-DIETARY factors that are not being considered in this theory.

It's true, there's something to be said for living in a small community where the soil is rich and you must eat only food that's grown there. However, as far as diet is concerned, Price did find that there were things in common between all 14 groups.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by newcastlemama

If someone can find this also...I remember reading that Price set out thinking that a vegetarian diet was the healthiest then came to the conclusion later that it was not necessary for optimal health.

I don't know if this is exactly what you're looking for:

"As yet I have not found a single group of primitive racial stock which was building and maintaining excellent bodies by living entirely on plant foods. I have found in many parts of the world most devout representatives of modern ethical systems advocating the restriction of foods to the vegetable products. In every instance where the groups involved had been long under this teaching, I found evidence of degeneration in the form of dental caries, and in the new generation in the form of abnormal dental arches to an extent very much higher than in the primitive groups who were not under this influence."

From chapter 15, "Characteristics of primitive and modernized dietaries"

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_lib...e/price15.html

[newcastlemama]

I was looking for that and another writing. Maybe it was in one of his letters to his nieces. I think it is interesting that we find there are groups that are healthy on diets where meat/animal products played a major role and then decide it must be something else like excercise, that is making them healthy.

[athansor]

I read through some of the book (although I'm a vegetarian on ethical grounds, so I don't see myself being converted). It seems that most of his indications of health was from visual observation, discussion of cancer rates with area doctors and dental observation.
Are teeth that good of an indicator of things like heart disease and cancer? Do good teeth = good health ?
Also, how does the scientific community view the chapter on physical, mental and moral deterioration? Is that considered outdated?

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by newcastlemama

I was looking for that and another writing. Maybe it was in one of his letters to his nieces.

I have a feeling there's something else. Hopefully someone else will chime in.

I think it is interesting that we find there are groups that are healthy on diets where meat/animal products played a major role and then decide it must be something else like excercise, that is making them healthy.

This is anecdotal, but I have a close friend who is in the construction industry. He has been in it for twenty years, and goes to between 6 and 10 different sites every year. He says that in all that time, he has only known ONE vegetarian (no vegans).

The lunch wagons that come to the sites all have meat-laden menus; by the time they get to the more remote job locations, they are often out of the meat items to the consternation of the workers.

He says he's never seen anyone bring a lunch that didn't have meat in it, and he himself would never consider taking it out of his diet because a meat-based meal is so much more satisfying when doing that type of work. During the times he's not working, he does reduce consumption, though, since he's not as hungry.

[holyhelianthus]

not ture that it's more statisfying. DH has worked on sites like that on a veg*n meal and also with eatting meat. the latter leaves him weighed down and feeling like he's dragging by the end of the day. the first helps him to remain focused and on his toes. there are also vegan body builders and many veg*n athletes who switched to a veg*n diet because they were able to burn off the light food fasters and not be weighed down. both are satisying but veg*n leaves you able to function smoother without a doubt at least in my and other's lives. DH turned his meat lovin' friend onto eatting veg*n while working with heavy lifting and in the desert sun for this very reason.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by newcastlemama

I was looking for that and another writing. Maybe it was in one of his letters to his nieces. I think it is interesting that we find there are groups that are healthy on diets where meat/animal products played a major role and then decide it must be something else like excercise, that is making them healthy.

[holyhelianthus]

i dreamt about this thread all night last night!

i'm not second guessing the *one* study of native peoples that was found to be healthy on a meat diet by saying 'oh, it must be the exercise!'. i am, however, doubting they got the real look over that they can today. it's an old study and i'd like to see one done nowadays with meat eating peoples because the ones i have discredit the theory. everything i have read trying to disprove a plant based diet (and trust me, i wanted to disprove it. i'm the type that likes my steak still mooing and my chicken any which was as long as i'm eating a lot of it) just didn't hold up to the studies upon studies naming it as the best for optimum health. do i think that eating a meat centered diet is going to kill you? hmmm... not always. not most of the time. do i think you can be healthy and eat a meat centered diet? yes. but i don't think you can achieve the optimum health you can as with a plant based diet.

i also think there is more to it than just diet although diet is an important part.

[catnip]

Originally Posted by newcastlemama

I was looking for that and another writing. Maybe it was in one of his letters to his nieces. I think it is interesting that we find there are groups that are healthy on diets where meat/animal products played a major role and then decide it must be something else like excercise, that is making them healthy.

Ok, two major points...

What I'm saying here that there are other major factors, ones that also correlate across the study groups that are likely to affect the results. They may not be the only factor, but they are significant.

Also, I think the theoretical benefits for individuals is far outweighed by the potential damage that heavy meat consumption is doing to the environment. Healthy bodies are well and good, but they aren't going to do us too much good when a freak hurricane caused by global warming comes into Sacramento, knocks down the levees and drowns us all. Yes, small scale pastured meat is sustainable, but there isn't enough land to feed 3 million people in the Sacramento diets that are based around sustainably raised meat. Add 10 million in the Bay Area and 20 million in LA, and, if you they all want to eat meat everyday, you are looking at needing feedlots, which I think we all agree are not even remotely good for anyone.

[holyhelianthus]

the enviornment is a HUGE factor in why DH and i feel a plant based diet is best. that and the starving people's of the world that we could feed with the resources we use to feed our animals.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by athansor

Do good teeth = good health ?

In a nutshell, yes. Take a look at the pictures taken of the people, teeth, and skulls.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by Chicharronita

In a nutshell, yes. Take a look at the pictures taken of the people, teeth, and skulls.

this thread weirds me out! i was just telling Dh we need to get his teeth fixed. we came from homes that all of us could agree sucked when it came to proper nutrition and hygine. seriously, this thread is on my mind even in my dreams. last night i dreamt you and i were having a face to face conversation over coffee in a garden Chicharronita.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by magstphil

not ture that it's more statisfying. DH has worked on sites like that on a veg*n meal and also with eatting meat. the latter leaves him weighed down and feeling like he's dragging by the end of the day.

I'm sorry, I don't recall if your dh works in a physically-intensive industry like construction. These men are swinging hammers and carrying heavy materials all day long. It doesn't appear that they feel weighed down from eating meat after such physical exertion, but I'm sure there are some that may have digestive issues or can't physically handle eating as much meat as the biggest eaters.

there are also vegan body builders and many veg*n athletes who switched to a veg*n diet because they were able to burn off the light food fasters and not be weighed down.

There are some, but not that many, as far as I know. I'm sure it can be done, but it seems like men tend not to want to put the time and effort in thinking about diet that someone like you probably does.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by catnip

Ok, two major points...

What I'm saying here that there are other major factors, ones that also correlate across the study groups that are likely to affect the results. They may not be the only factor, but they are significant.

You have to read the book to understand the amount of information Price gathered about these people's diet. And keep in mind that he analyzed the ACTUAL content of the food they were eating, not relying on some food database table from the U.S.D.A. (like what's done now in nutrition studies).

Healthy bodies are well and good, but they aren't going to do us too much good when a freak hurricane caused by global warming comes into Sacramento, knocks down the levees and drowns us all.

This is true, but should we accept an inferior diet just because of what may happen in the future? I think we should still try to get people to abandon eating factory-farmed animals in favor of pastured ones.

Did anyone read the recent "green" issue of Vanity Fair? It was amazing. I sure wish I could afford one of those electric sports cars.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by Chicharronita

I'm sorry, I don't recall if your dh works in a physically-intensive industry like construction. These men are swinging hammers and carrying heavy materials all day long.

he did the pre wiring for homes during construction which includes swinging hammers, picking up and hauling bundles of wire (which is actually heavier than i can lift. never thought that until he brought some home in the truck), climbing up and down ladders and housing frames with said materials and all in the desert sun and heat. now he builds cabinetry but still does the pre wiring when they need an extra hand. which is usually in the summer, so it sucks to be him.

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by magstphil

seriously, this thread is on my mind even in my dreams. last night i dreamt you and i were having a face to face conversation over coffee in a garden Chicharronita.

Sounds nice! I need to have some breakfast and coffee now. See you guys later.