"Death by Veganism" NYT opinion piece - Page 4

[Lisa Lubner]

A vegan diet is as inappropriate for a 2 year old as it is for a 3 week old.

I disagree. Many 2 year old bodies are perfectly capable of thriving on a vegan diet. A newborn is a completely different story. In the absense of breastmilk, then YEAH, you need to FF. I don't think ANY of the vegans here are debating that particular fact. Everything that vgnmama2keller said referenced a child's diet after weaning off the breast.

[HelloKitty]

Originally Posted by athansor

I think that the thing that makes these discussions so difficult is that many veg*ns follow the lifestyle for moral/ethical reasons first, and health reasons second.

ITA, this is the general problem with these discussions.

[HelloKitty]

Originally Posted by Lisa Lubner

I disagree. Many 2 year old bodies are perfectly capable of thriving on a vegan diet. A newborn is a completely different story. In the absense of breastmilk, then YEAH, you need to FF. I don't think ANY of the vegans here are debating that particular fact. Everything that vgnmama2keller said referenced a child's diet after weaning off the breast.

EXACTLY.

[AJP]

Originally Posted by gentlemango

Those studies aren't distinguishing between vegan and vegetarian.

Also, every health study I've ever read comparing veg*n to omni does not distinguish between junk food omnis (or financially poor omni populations, in some cases) who eat mostly refined carbs and factory farmed animal foods and consciencious omnis who still include lots of whole plant foods and whose animal products come from pasture-based/free-range practices. Factory farmed meat and dairy are not the same thing as naturally-raised, quality animal foods any more than Wonder bread is the same thing as organic, wholegrain, sprouted wheat bread.

Interesting how almost every thread with "vegan" or "vegetarian" in the title turns to this eternal debate, and usually gets nasty. Food is as emotional as religion to most people, it seems.

[thismama]

I really don't think a vegan diet is appropriate for young children. Certainly it is better for a 2 year old than a 3 week old, tho. Because the 2 year old will, you know... live.

But really. Where is the protein? Soy? Yikes. Beans? They don't contain enough protein to meet a human's protein requirements IMO. Nuts... okay, they help. But I don't think it's enough.

I get the ethical issue. But honestly I don't think we are intended to be vegan.

[vgnmama2keller]

A vegan diet is as inappropriate for a 2 year old as it is for a 3 week old.

You're opinion sure. but here are some other's. The American Dietetic Association (ADA) and Dietitians of Canada position paper on vegetarian diets officially recognizes that well-planned vegan diets are appropriate for infancy and childhood.[1] The American Academy of Pediatrics concurs.[2,3]

Pediatric Nutrition Handbook. American Academy Of Pediatrics. http://www.aap.org/bst/showdetl.cfm?...=760&CatID=132 Accessed May 19, 2005.

Mangels AR, Messina V. Considerations in planning vegan diets: infants. J Am Diet Assoc. 2001;101:670–677. doi: 10.1016/S0002-8223(01)00169-9. [PubMed]

Anon. Position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada: Vegetarian diets. Journal of the American Dietetic Association. 2003;103:748–765. [PubMed]

[Lisa Lubner]

Originally Posted by thismama

I really don't think a vegan diet is appropriate for young children. Certainly it is better for a 2 year old than a 3 week old, tho. Because the 2 year old will, you know... live.

But really. Where is the protein? Soy? Yikes. Beans? They don't contain enough protein to meet a human's protein requirements IMO. Nuts... okay, they help. But I don't think it's enough.

I get the ethical issue. But honestly I don't think we are intended to be vegan.

Quite honestly, I don't think human beings as a worldwide group are intended to eat any particular narrowly defined diet. We all need certain nutrients to survive, and some of us can absorb things better than others, some of us have allergies... I just think there are many paths to good health and that what works for one person might not work for another.

I don't really think the vegan diet (in my case) is ideal, but my son doesn't seem to be having a problem with it. In fact, he seems a lot healthier than most of his omni friends, and not just the ones that are fast food omni.

I never really understood why people get so worked up over the protein issue. It is SO EASY to get, and there are so many other issues that I could understand people being concerned about...

[gentlemango]

Originally Posted by vgnmama2keller

You're opinion sure. but here are some other's. The American Dietetic Association (ADA) and Dietitians of Canada position paper on vegetarian diets officially recognizes that well-planned vegan diets are appropriate for infancy and childhood.

The APA sees no problem with formula and the ADA is still recommending the standard American diet complete with refined grains and refined vegetable oil.

My entire point is that children are supposed to be getting breastmilk, which is an animal product, for WAY longer than our society permits. I think that the problems that many vegan children show is related to this. And the fact that so many of our children's health problems have cleared up with the addition of small amounts of animal products in their diets seems to support that theory.

I am not responsible for your children's health. I have no personal stake in changing your mind. I say these things and open myself up to your flames because it happened to me, and I hope that other vegan parents will take a hard look at the research and consider including some animal nutrition in their young children's diets. Make it pumped breastmilk, by all means! I may just do that myself next time.

[thismama]

I do not think protein is *so easy* to get. Vegans I know eat FAR too many carbs/grains, and too little protein. IMO.

[Lisa Lubner]

Originally Posted by thismama

I do not think protein is *so easy* to get. Vegans I know eat FAR too many carbs/grains, and too little protein. IMO.

I'm not totally disagreeing with you on this one. Most of the vegans I have known (and I have known many) also eat far too few fresh veggies. You are entitled to your opinion, but in my experience, it takes very little effort to get enough protein... even as a strict vegan. All that stuff that was printed ages ago (I forget the title of the book, but I'll post it when I remember) about how vegetarians have to painstakingly combine foods at every meal to get complete proteins turned out to be unnecessary (and in the same book, a few editions later, they mention this revelation) as long as your diet is sufficiently varied. I mean, no you wont get enough if you only eat spagetti and tomato sauce over and over again.

Comparitively, at least in my experience, some other nutrients were much more difficult to get adequate amounts of.

This is all just my experience from my 9+ years as a vegan. And I do realize you're talking about your opinion.

[thismama]

Yeah, I'm talking about my own opinion. I'm a recovering vegetarian - I eat diary and eggs, and am attempting to re-intro meat after 15 years as a veggie.

I think vegetarianism is possibly the worst thing I've ever done for my health. Of course, I was a junk food veggie, and moving to whole foods has made a world of difference for me.

But I really don't get how one would get enough protein without animal products, even if they were super careful. I'm not speaking of food combining, I know that theory has been overturned. But with the controversy re: soy, especially processed soy, I just don't think beans and nuts alone are enough. Far from it.

[rzberrymom]

Originally Posted by Lisa Lubner

It doesn't really do your side of the argument justice when you get defensive and make your point by being rude to everyone that sees things differently. Most people are more likely to change their minds when you bring respect to the table along with your ideas.

As a lurker on this thread, I've got to say this statement is really true. That exchange kind of turned me off to learning more.

[melissa17s]

Originally Posted by gentlemango

The APA sees no problem with formula and the ADA is still recommending the standard American diet complete with refined grains and refined vegetable oil.

My entire point is that children are supposed to be getting breastmilk, which is an animal product, for WAY longer than our society permits. I think that the problems that many vegan children show is related to this. And the fact that so many of our children's health problems have cleared up with the addition of small amounts of animal products in their diets seems to support that theory.

I am not responsible for your children's health. I have no personal stake in changing your mind. I say these things and open myself up to your flames because it happened to me, and I hope that other vegan parents will take a hard look at the research and consider including some animal nutrition in their young children's diets. Make it pumped breastmilk, by all means! I may just do that myself next time.

Are you assuming that vegans do not breast feed or talking specifically about the family that starved the baby? 'Cause I am pretty sure that many veg*ns here are extended nursers...

[HelloKitty]

Here's a great link on protein sources from vegan foods:
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm

I actually do find it pretty easy to get enough protein in my diet.

[catnip]

Originally Posted by thismama

Yeah, I'm talking about my own opinion. I'm a recovering vegetarian - I eat diary and eggs, and am attempting to re-intro meat after 15 years as a veggie.

I think vegetarianism is possibly the worst thing I've ever done for my health. Of course, I was a junk food veggie, and moving to whole foods has made a world of difference for me.

But I really don't get how one would get enough protein without animal products, even if they were super careful. I'm not speaking of food combining, I know that theory has been overturned. But with the controversy re: soy, especially processed soy, I just don't think beans and nuts alone are enough. Far from it.

There are computer programs that let you run numbers on the nutritional info for a diet. Even on days I eat vegan, my fat/protein/carb ratio is 15/15/70, which is well within recommended norms. And I eat very little soy.

I will say that it is very difficult to get enough calories (and thus, enough protein) in a vegan diet into a kid with a nut allergy, especially if you avoid soy, adults with lots of allergies, too. If you're allergic to wheat, gluten, soy, nuts... you run out of stuff to eat. But I know people who are allergic to poultry, pork, fish, milk and eggs too.

[Lisa Lubner]

Originally Posted by thismama

Yeah, I'm talking about my own opinion. I'm a recovering vegetarian - I eat diary and eggs, and am attempting to re-intro meat after 15 years as a veggie.

I think vegetarianism is possibly the worst thing I've ever done for my health. Of course, I was a junk food veggie, and moving to whole foods has made a world of difference for me.

But I really don't get how one would get enough protein without animal products, even if they were super careful. I'm not speaking of food combining, I know that theory has been overturned. But with the controversy re: soy, especially processed soy, I just don't think beans and nuts alone are enough. Far from it.

I never did the junk food vegan thing, but probably because my mom was always pretty picky about what she fed my sister and I. She had her own organic garden, my dad hunted, we never ate anything with aritficial color/flavors/preservatives. Highly processed food just doesn't taste like food to me and it never has.

But yeah, reintroducing animal foods is WEIRD. I was a HUGE meat eater before going vegan, and by the time I ate some fish almost 10 years later, it just felt alien to my teeth. After I reintroduced dairy, I couldn't drink chocolate Silk anymore... it just didn't taste good to me anymore, whereas before I would chug it straight out of the fridge when no one was looking.

ETA... btw, I DO credit extended breastfeeding for much of their good health. They each nursed until they were at least 2 years old.

[FreeRangeMama]

Personally I think that vgnmama2keller has inadvertently proven the point that many of us are trying to discuss. Being vegan for so long and being very active within that community I have met a great variety of people who follow that diet for a ton of different reasons. In general they have been a well read, well researched bunch. Most could tell you what nutrients were needed and which foods contained those things. Just like the VERY long posts that were impossible to read.

Those sources are missing the point. Just like how many supposedly reputable sources will claim that breastfed babies will need an iron supplement after around 6 months because breastmilk has less iron when really the iron in bm is so bioavailable that less is required (whereas most of the iron in formula and baby cereals cannot be properly absorbed so more is necessary).

The numbers look nice on paper, but in reality it is lacking the important basic understanding of how our bodies actually utilizes the foods we eat. Beans have lots of proteins, that is great. But we can't actually USE all the proteins in those beans unless the fiber is broken down so we can absorb it. Fats are vitally important to how our bodies function (good quality healthy fats). Many vitamins and minerals are in fact in many different plants, but we are unable to break them down and absorb them in that form. One kind of vitamin A isn't directly translatable to another. THAT is the difference, and that is what I never found in any vegan nutritional guide.

I am sure the parents of vegan babies who used these homemade formulas really loved their children, and really thought they were doing what was in the best interest of their children. I know I believed that when I was raising my own children without animal products (though I practice extended breastfeeding). The thing is that no one is telling these parents some vitally important information about what our bodies ACTUALLY need and why. It is more about how our bodies breakdown and absorb foods, and about how bioavailable each nutrient is in each of those foods. Without actually understanding those key facts you cannot possibly understand what problems are inherent with a vegan diet for a young child.

[rayo de sol]

Originally Posted by gentlemango

[B]If you cannot give breastmilk for the evolutionarily correct span of time children were designed for, you must give a substitute source of those nutrients. Cow's milk is not perfect, eggs are not perfect, fish is not perfect, only breastmilk is perfect. But they will meet the child's needs in a way that plants cannot. A vegan diet is as inappropriate for a 2 year old as it is for a 3 week old.

:

I find it a curious that some vegan arguments compare humans to herbivores and say that if cows can survive on grass, then we can survive on nothing but plant matter (because we're so much like cows?) while other vegan arguments emphasize how different humans are from cows so we couldn't possibly thrive on their milk. Which is it?

FWIW, I was raised 95% vegan with macrobiotic leanings and fed only whole, homemade, homegrown foods, nothing processed, never sugar or white flour, lots of whole grains, raw nuts, beans, lots of kale and other greens and veggies, lots of tofu, no other processed soy besides the occasional soy milk, and even with the occasional high quality animal products in my childhood diet, I have suffered many health problems because of my near-vegan upbringing. One of my areas of worst health is my teeth. My whole childhood I just constantly developed cavities, and now my teeth have degenerated into periodontal disease, and I absolutely see a connection between my nutrient-deficient childhood diet, and my teeth problems. I wish my mother had fed me more high quality animal foods so that I could enjoy better health. I know that the foods I was raised on look good on the nutrition charts in terms of nutrient content, but what the human body is able to assimilate from these foods is a whole different matter.

[Lisa Lubner]

I find it a curious that some vegan arguments compare humans to herbivores and say that if cows can survive on grass, then we can survive on nothing but plant matter (because we're so much like cows?) while other vegan arguments emphasize how different humans are from cows so we couldn't possibly thrive on their milk. Which is it?

"It's funny because it's true!" -Homer Simpson

[HelloKitty]

Originally Posted by FreeRangeMama

I am sure the parents of vegan babies who used these homemade formulas really loved their children, and really thought they were doing what was in the best interest of their children.

What "homemade formulas" are you referring to? The article was about parents that fed their newborn baby only soy milk and juice... they could have fed the baby cows milk and juice with the same result.