Vent/rant/WWYD - bullying at preschool - Page 3

[Jennifer Z]

Originally Posted by Periwinkle

But my children have never hurt another child intentionally.

Neither has mine. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body. He is sweet, intellingent kid who gets really overwhelmed in social situations and doesn't have the language or social understanding of how to get help when he needs it. If another kid is too loud, too close, too smelly (soap perfumes too, not just gross types of smelly), and he has hit his limit, how he is able to communicate it might look like bullying to the outside, even though it very much is NOT bullying.

In fact, my guy has to deal with sweet kids who say horribly mean things, even though they aren't trying to be mean, they are just being preschoolers. ("I got done first, so I am smarter", "he doesn't talk because he is stupid", ect ect all day long.)

Do you want me to call out your 'typical' kid for being emotionally abusive when they aren't trying to be mean, but are socially inappropriate? Do you want me to go on and on about how horrible kids are who say such cruel things? Or do you just want the kid to be monitored appropriatly and given a better example of how to handle the situation.

I have to go take my son to therapy now, but I will check back on this thread later tonight.

[joensally]

I think some of the discourse hasn't been directed to your post but to some of the responses to it.

OK. I hear you. But do you hear me? They are focused on their child and trying to find a working system. I am focused on my child and making sure they are safe. I have no doubt that it is hard and there are "growing pains", but it is not acceptable for my child to be physically assaulted while T's parents work out the kinks with his program. This is the disconnect for me. It's like, I know they see there's an issue and that "it's hard" and "it's a slow process" but hellllooooo... my kid has been terrorized in school and nothing is changing. It's May. School ends in now 1 day. Whatever they're doing (the school at least) is not working, and they need to get their acts together for next year to make sure they can better support the children.

I do hear you. I have a "typical" child and a child with extra needs. And I accepted then, with her, and now, with him, that some kids are going to make mistakes. They're all learning, and a good program that is properly resourced will ensure that they can all learn with reasonable safety.

My son has also never deliberately hurt someone - it is always a reaction to overstimulation. My son, whose (mostly past) behaviour is likely seen as bullying by some of the other parents, cried at barely 4 yo when he intuited that Charlotte was dying in Charlotte's Web. He's a sensitive guy who doesn't always have control of his emotions or responses, and at 4 has become the kid who is a peacemaker and defender of those who are being pushed around by others. This, because he had the support he needed and was not rejected when he lost control.

Please don't assume that the other parents don't care about your children. They just might. When I cried, it was in frustration and worry, pain for my son, and worry for the child who went home sad that something happened at school.

This thread has had a whiff of "deserving" to it - all of these littles deserve to have positive experience in preschool, and the anger should be directed right at the school and the funders and adminstrators of support services, not the kids.

ETA: Periwinkle, I totally understand the mama bear .

[HarperRose]

Originally Posted by Periwinkle

What I've been saying is that the school is totally not set up to handle kids like this and are doing a piss poor job of it as a result. I also followed-up and said how thrilled I was after kindergarten orientation that they have a program in place that seems to be working for special ed kids being included in kindergarten classes. I'm sorry if you're reading something in my posts that I just flat out don't believe... it sounds like you want to think I am against special needs kids or something, which I've never said nor do I believe implied, as I've come right out and said I think the issue is the school's sucky handling of the situation.

No, it wasn't anything in YOUR posts. I was actually quite pleased that the kinder orientation went so well!! That's great!

I'm sorry my posts came across that way to you. It was certainly not intentional. It was what I perceived became an overall tone with the thread.

[Periwinkle]

Originally Posted by Jennifer Z

Neither has mine. He doesn't have a mean bone in his body.

Great. I wasn't talking about your kids. I was talking about mine and the boys in their class.

Do you want me to call out your 'typical' kid for being emotionally abusive when they aren't trying to be mean, but are socially inappropriate?

Absolutely. I would be very sad to find out that my children harmed another child, either phsyically or emotionally. We take hurting feelings very seriously. I do not consider being cruel to other children to be "typical" or a normal part of growing up.... normal in America perhaps, but not normal as far as some instictive way children always behave. Is it against everything I believe to be true about children, about my parenting philosophy, and my values. To turn a blind eye (or worse, pretend you're concerned but really do diddly to change the behavior demonstrating to the child that you don't really care and it's all appearances that matter) to this stuff drives me bananas.

I have to say that I find you are being extremely defensive and spinning my story to be about you and your child and your struggles and challenges. On the one hand, I have really appreciated your participation in this thread and I do think it's important to understand the other side (which I do as I stated in my OP). On the other hand, I am having a really tough time with this figuring out what to do and saying basically I should think about how hard it is for the parents of this kid or the child himself is both a.) something I've done extensively (read my OP) and b.) not helping the situation in any way.

******
The director rescheduled the meeting for tomorrow so the teacher who leads their inclusion enrollment can be there. She's the teacher in the 3 year-old classroom but apparently has other duties as well so she wants her there too.

[Periwinkle]

Originally Posted by Justthatgirl

No, it wasn't anything in YOUR posts. I was actually quite pleased that the kinder orientation went so well!! That's great!

I'm sorry my posts came across that way to you. It was certainly not intentional. It was what I perceived became an overall tone with the thread.

: Oh okay. Sorry if I was snippy. I didn't sleep well last night thinking of this and then the director rescheduled the meeting and tomorrow is the last day of school..... I feel like I'm diving for a closing gate or something.

[Periwinkle]

Originally Posted by joensally

This thread has had a whiff of "deserving" to it - all of these littles deserve to have positive experience in preschool, and the anger should be directed right at the school and the funders and adminstrators of support services, not the kids.

Where's the bumper sticker....

Originally Posted by joensally

ETA: Periwinkle, I totally understand the mama bear .

Thanks. Again, sorry if I'm just going berserk here. I've tried really really really hard in my posts not to mention my thinking this entire year to understand the other side and not make this about the kids, but rather the school's response. I certainly don't want this thread to turn into another source of disapproval for you guys.

[ledzepplon]

Since it was brought up, I'd like to clarify my post. I'm certainly not anti-inclusion, I just don't believe in sending my kid out to fend for herself in a situation she's not equipped to handle.

[HarperRose]

Originally Posted by Periwinkle

: Oh okay. Sorry if I was snippy. I didn't sleep well last night thinking of this and then the director rescheduled the meeting and tomorrow is the last day of school..... I feel like I'm diving for a closing gate or something.

No, that's ok. We all have those moments. I had a migraine all day (woke up with it : ) and wasn't 100% myself.

I hope the meeting is successful and things can get fixed. It sounds like the Kinder teachers have a good grasp on how to deal, but the Preschool/Pre-K doesn't. I wonder if the Pre-K teachers just need some more education on it. The director MUST do something about it because it's just not acceptable for it to continue.

[bullfrog]

Originally Posted by Justthatgirl

Ok, so, what do we do? We should remove our SN kids so yours are ok? What does that tell our SN kids who are trying to learn how to function in society? That they're not good enough? That they're freaks?

Whether you meant it or not, that is totally how it comes across to me as a SN parent.

None of us WANT our kids to hurt others. Our kids need to learn how to adapt and work with society. We have to help them understand in whatever way they can. The educators they have need to do the same.

Removing SN kids from the equation protects your kids, sure. But what does it do for mine?

I said nothing about SN kids - you inferred it. That's on you. And, no, I don't have SN kids- so no, I don't know what you should do about it. I have kids who don't want to be bullied by any kids in any situation - SN or not. If a kid bullies my kid and the administration does nothing about it - or doesn't think it's an issue - I would take my kid out in an instant. I have no idea what you should do with your kids - that' your issue.

Originally Posted by Justthatgirl

In THIS instance, no, it's not. But it's been made to sound like inclusion for everyone is unacceptable.

This is getting on my last nerve on this board - if someone said it directly - then address that - enough of this "well it came across as..." or "it has been made to sound like" stuff. Either someone said something directly to offend you - or they didn't. I didn't see any posts that said, "Keep SN kids out of my kids class."

[Periwinkle]

I forgot to post the update.

Had the meeting with the director and the so-called special ed teacher (who's not by either choice or training) and it went, well, okay.

It started off, not too surprisingly I guess, with a lot of defensive and annoying statements that had nothing to do with the situation at all. They were clearly exhausted and beat by the whole thing and having a VERY pissed mother on the last day of school was probably the icing on the cake for them.

So after a few minutes of the b.s., I said that my children have a right to be safe in school and that I am upset by the lack of communication with me about the situation. They have no written policy and they are clearly reacting to these situations, not preventing them from occuring or even responding in a consistent way with either the children themselves or the parents. They agreed actually. They said they are in the process of working with the organization where the aides work and identifying minimum requirements. Apparently one of the aides was unable to walk well and so T would run off toward a kid and there wasn't much anyone could do at that point but just watch a train wreck. I asked why that aide wasn't replaced immediately and she said it was out of their hands to some degree. Anyway, they're writing up a policy on the requirements for inclusion and a policy that will include how to handle physical and emotional abuse. They are also going to ensure no more than 1 of these children in any classroom and are ammending the school's policy to include for all children language about bullying and what the school's response and escalation will be.

So it looks like, at the end of the day, I got my point across and they are aware of the issues and working to resolve them already.

Anyway.... sucks to be my kids - the guinea pigs - but glad for the kids next year.

[HarperRose]

I'm glad they're getting on the ball, but jeez, the whole process of GETTING there could/should have been avoided.

[joensally]

Originally Posted by Periwinkle

So it looks like, at the end of the day, I got my point across and they are aware of the issues and working to resolve them already.

Anyway.... sucks to be my kids - the guinea pigs - but glad for the kids next year.

Wow! Thanks for the update, I'd been wondering how it went.

I have to say this PS organization lacks some professionalism. I hope they know that they don't have to reinvent the wheel and that many other organizations have written policies and standards that they would likely be willing to share.

I think part of my surprise at the whole thing was that I (mistakenly) assumed that they had these policies and strategies in place and were having an odd year. Every setting I've had my kids in has provided multiple-page long parent handbooks and policy statements (ie regarding safety protocols, discipline strategies etc).

Good for you for following through with this! Hopefully, next year's kids will have a much better year.

[myjulybabes]

Originally Posted by Periwinkle

And I'm sorry I just snapped... why is this information that is kept from the parents? I have a right to know that a child has punched his teacher in the mouth 12 times and has hit 28 times and has a full-time aide (who apparently is USELESS) in the classroom with him. It is May for crying out loud! School is over in 2 days!

Actually, I'm prety sure you don't have the right to know that. There are privacy laws about this kind of thing. Yes, I know who in my dd's class has an aide, because she's told me, and I've actually been in the classroom and seen it, but I would never expect the teacher to tell me that. Another child's educational plan is NOT my business. And if the teachers in my ds's class tell me "a student" did XYZ, I can usually guess who it was, because it's a small class and I've been around to see the personalities, but they cannot tell me who it was.

I do agree that this program is being very poorly handled and it's not one I'd want either one of my kids in. Sounds like they've set up a situation that the teacher is not capable of handling. Which means they need a different teacher, not that the inclusion program needs to end or whatever.

(oh, and I'm going out for the afternoon, so if I don't answer again for awhile, I'm not ignoring it, just not here! )

[Periwinkle]

Originally Posted by myjulybabes

Actually, I'm prety sure you don't have the right to know that. There are privacy laws about this kind of thing.

Privacy laws do not prevent the school from communicating to me in a formal, consistent way that...

a.) my child has been harmed
b.) what occured
c.) what corrective steps were taken
d.) reiterating what the school's policy about physical and emotional aggression is, and how this communication is a part of that.

I know the boy's name because my children have been crying about him all year. If you read my posts, the teachers have actually been EXTREMELY circumspect about sharing ANY information at all about the situation, being evasive and saying "things" were being done, etc.

I will revise what I said about the aide though... I do not think it is my right to know the child's special ed plan, I agree with that. But I do have a right to know that violence is occuring in the classroom in a MUCH MUCH MUCH more detailed and consistent way than I have.

Here's how I learned my dd was punched in the stomach by T:

In carpool line - 25 cars behind me... teacher helping kids into my minivan, me in the driver's seat... and she says "Ohbythewayddwaspunchedinthestomachtodaybutshe'sok ayandwetalkedaboutitanditwon'thappenagain."

I'm like, great, thanks, bye! Call you Monday!

[HarperRose]

Originally Posted by Periwinkle

Here's how I learned my dd was punched in the stomach by T:

In carpool line - 25 cars behind me... teacher helping kids into my minivan, me in the driver's seat... and she says "Ohbythewayddwaspunchedinthestomachtodaybutshe'sok ayandwetalkedaboutitanditwon'thappenagain."

I'm like, great, thanks, bye! Call you Monday!

Oh, yeah, no. That's not cool. We get written notes that there was an incident, details of the incident, and how it was handled.

[myjulybabes]

Originally Posted by Periwinkle

Privacy laws do not prevent the school from communicating to me in a formal, consistent way that...

a.) my child has been harmed
b.) what occured
c.) what corrective steps were taken
d.) reiterating what the school's policy about physical and emotional aggression is, and how this communication is a part of that.

Yeah, I can't argue there. I read the OP as you needing to know that a child was hitting the teacher or other kids, which is what I disagreed with and where the privacy stuff comes in. When it comes to your kid, yes, they absolutely should give you a report on what happened and what they're doing about it to prevent future occurances. A quick "hey, by the way" wouldn't cut it for me either, unless part of it was "and we'll follow up on that with you tomorrow/Monday".

Sorry if I misread you. I'm kind of on both sides of it here, because I do have an SN kiddo, and it can be a sensitive topic, but he's also been hit/bitten by other kids, and oh does it bring out the mama bear!

[rabrog]

Question

Here's a question pertaining a bit to this thread:

It used to be very split - SN kids in one room doing God knows what and the other kids doing their thing. Then it was "let's see what little SuzyQ can do in the regular classroom" and the idea of mainstreaming began (I know - very general there.... ). Suddenly, we decide it's a good idea for ALL SN kids to be mainstreamed and then it moved to being in a regular class all the time. Then the whole privacy thing became a big deal and some parents balked at their child having an aid.

All that to say: do you think we jumped into this too quickly instead of building programs slowly to ensure the safety and well being of all children?

Jenn

[mmace]

Great thoughts Jenn! Honestly, I'd have to say that it is a case by case thing. My son has PDD-NOS. His principal knows that. His teachers know that. But if you walked into the classroom and spent the day, you wouldn't know that. He is very high-functioning. You might think he was a bit immature - he might call out instead of raising his hand, he has a hard time sitting still so he might rock a little bit at times, but you would never think there was anything "wrong" with him. He gets straight As and loves school. I thank God for mainstreaming, because years ago that autism diagnosis would have had him in a special class, and I can tell you definitively that that would be a much, Much, MUCH worse situation for him.

[rabrog]

And for your son, Marissa, it's been a great thing to have him mainstreamed. The issue is that another mom with a SN kid sees him in the class doing so well and says "my kid can do that too" and it's great to let the the child try and see what happens - I am all for trying - but then something happens (her child is hitting other kids [not saying it's bullying but hitting is hitting intentional or not] or the teacher), the teacher wants him either out of the class or with an aid and his mom get all offended about it. The mom then pulls the "my son has a right to be mainstreamed" card and what can the school do? That's where I think policy needs to be developed.

(The above situation just happened in our district with an 8th grader who as Aspergers- child was much more violent than I described).

Jenn

[Periwinkle]

See, I think that all children have a right to TRY to be in a mainstream school if that's what the parents want. But if you're hitting and abusing other children and teachers, that right goes away. That's how morality works, i.e., you assault someone and you lose some of your rights (e.g., your right to be at your house and eating whatever you want and working and socializing, because now you're in jail). I don't care if the child has a diagnosis or not, this sort of behavior needs to stop being looked over and dealt with ineffectively by the schools or the parents.