"Waiting for the bus.."

[LynnS6]

OK, so I read Deva33mommy's thread about the Secret of Parenting and the 'waiting for the bus' technique of getting a child to do something.

I've been working on that mentality and it's been helping me a bit. I'm at least a little less prone to 'snapping' and yelling. I just remind myself that I'm waiting for the bus.

But what happens when your child can out-wait you? Ds once spent 3 hours sitting by his boots, NOT putting them on! (He was fully capable of doing it, just didn't want to.) He fell asleep on the floor tonight while I was waiting for him to get into bed. Dd appears to be capable of holding her urine for HOURS some days (and I'm afraid she's going to get an infection.) Heaven help us if I suggest she needs to go potty!

(OK, I know I need to read the book, but it's going to be a bit before I can get to it.)

Maybe my question is: If the bus never comes, what's the next step?

[maya44]

Well I can tell you what Wolf would say:

1. If you need/want to go somewhere, and they must put boots on to go and you can't wait any longer, then you put them on the child yourself. Gently if possible.

The same with bed, if you are tired of waiting for a three year old to get into bed, you put them in, over and over again if necessary with no commentary.


Also, I am not sure what happened when you say he spent three hours just sitting by his boots. Were you using the waiting for a bus technique at the time (just looking at him and waiting as you would for a bus?)

2. "Matters of the Toilet" is not a proper area for discipline techniques, says Wolf. If there is a true issue in this area, it should be resolved with a doctor using the same methods you would to deal with any medical compliance issue.

[lovemyfamily6]

I think I need to read Secret of Parenting. From reading some posts about it, it seems to be about the place on the GD spectrum that I would fall.

I keep trying to do the "waiting for the bus" technique but end up reverting to old ways and being impatient and not doing it right. I need to keep trying.

[heartmama]

If I remember right, when the waiting doesn't work, you put on the boots for him with a bored attitude, and say something like "Next time I ask you to put on the boots before we leave, I expect you to do it". With Wolf the key is to avoid getting caught up in strong emotions, which feed the power struggle, and focus instead on results and expectations, not your own emotional state....again I'm just remembering this though, he may have elaborated or said otherwise.

For me his philosophy wasn't "enough" on some level...I felt like a good day for Wolf would be a more adversarial day than I'd want to have myself. But I do think he gives results that aren't violent, and I know there were occasions when his "Waiting for the bus" and other specific idea's were what I intuitively wound up doing when ds was younger and picked a very bad moment to be uncommunicative, leaving me stuck to figure out how to get us both moving towards a necessary goal. In those moments I think what I did looked a lot like Wolf's recommendations.

[DevaMajka]

Yeah, reading the book was very important to my understanding of the technique.
The "waiting for the bus" thing is about keeping that expectation over their heads, in a way. The way Wolf talks about it, it's sort of keeping the situation a little bit, um, uncomfortable (maybe?), for the child. As far as, you are telling them you have an expectation, and you are letting them stay aware that they are not following through with it- and that you aren't going to relax your expectation.
So if you leave, or focus your attention elsewhere, the child won't feel the expectation as much.
Also, if you talk more about it (after the first explanation, empathy, etc), that's relieving the discomfort that the child feels too. Same if you respond to dc's arguments against it, or try to talk dc into wanting to do it.

Wolf also says that if a child outright says NO to doing something, that you should respect that. The expectation is still there, and it will be there tomorrow, but that they have a need for autonomy, and that's ok too.

[lovemyfamily6]

How do you do it w/ other children? For example, if I'm waiting/watching one of my 4 year olds and my 5 year old is asking me to come to the playroom with him to see his building or my other 4 year old wants me to read him a story, how do I do that without removing the expectation from the original 4 year old?

[heartmama]

I think you build the time limit into the original expectation. That's the way I understand Wolf.

"Ds, please put your plate in the sink after dinner"

Ds screams no and folds his arms.

Parent picks up the plate and puts it into the sink. The parent says 'Ds I expect you to put your plate in the sink after dinner. When I ask you to put your plate in the sink I expect you to do it quickly". No more emotion or commentary. No further discussion. The next night politely say again 'Ds please put your plate in the sink after dinner".

Wolf says that children are very uncomfortable knowing they are deliberately not meeting your expectations, especially when there isn't the satisfaction of emotional engagement over a power struggle as a result (ie. if you forced them to put away the plate, or begged and pleaded, the resulting emotions and power issues would be a form of engagement they might intentionally seek out again and again). Wolf says that fundamentally children want approval and to be engaged with a parent, and will choose to comply with future requests rather than live with the uncomfortable feeling that follows the parent stating openly the child has failed to meet an expectation. The key is to let that uncomfortable feeling persist without letting emotion or conversation distract from it. Make the statement and quickly move on to something else.

Again, as I said, this is really too detached for me personally...but I have known moments when this is almost exactly what I did. I think personally my "closing statement" wouldn't be a statement of my natural authority, but a statement of my general boundaries. "Ds I asked you to put your plate away after dinner. You threw a fit and ran out of the room. The next time I ask you to put away your plate I expect you to answer calmly and respectfully if you disagree". Or something like that....I would be focusing on his use of tactics that weren't agreeable to me--a tantrum, rudeness, ignoring etc., and not as focused on compliance to the request.

[DevaMajka]

Heartmama's description of what to do and why sounds right on.

I agree, that it seems a bit detached. More than that, it seems uncaring of dc's desires- you're not trying to find an agreeable solution, you're just "pulling rank" as they say.
I have to say, though, that it's much better than MY alternative, which usually involves some sort of shaming or threatening. (threats like "if you don't brush your teeth, I can't let you have candy anymore." and shaming like "WHY did you DO that!?!?! You made a HUGE mess!!")
I don't think it (sop techniques) affects ds negatively, actually. And I wouldn't say that in practice it feels detached. But then, I've used it just a few times in a couple weeks. So most of the time, I try to make things consensual. The times that I've expressed an expectation and waited for it to be carried out, he did it pretty quickly, and found a way to make it agreeable. (ex- we were on a walk and he refused to walk at one point. I waited, and he was upset for a minute, then he sat up and said excitedly that he would find 2 sticks and we'd both carry one. He was happy to continue the walk, and I was happy to carry the stick.)

Adding- I don't have a lot of strict expectations of ds. It wouldn't occur to me to care whether he took him plate to the sink or not. Sometime he helps, most of the time he doesn't (same with dp. lol). I don't care if he sits during dinner, or when he eats. I don't care if he picks up his toys or not, so I do it most of the time. Stuff like that.
I'd just use SOP ideas for situations like if we are out, and I need ds to get in the car, and he doesn't want to. I'd try to give as much time as I could, but in the end, it's not always enough. kwim?

[heartmama]

I'd just use SOP ideas for situations like if we are out, and I need ds to get in the car, and he doesn't want to. I'd try to give as much time as I could, but in the end, it's not always enough. kwim?

Oh yes, I get that completely. I can think of many instances where being more disciplined and action-oriented as a parent made ds feel more secure than letting the situation continue in the direction we were going.

I don't think this is an example of Wolf, but recently ds was getting slack about making balanced food choices. He has digestion issues which make high fiber, low fat foods much better choices for him. I had tried giving lots of open suggestions but he seemed to not be taking the initiative. He started to get very narrow in what foods he was choosing, to the point that I felt we were going in a definite direction away from thinking about health as a top priority. I finally just starting putting the healthier choices on the plate without asking him first (which is very unusual for me), and making it clear why (these foods were what he needed in order to stay healthy). It was understood that those foods needed to be his first choice if he was hungry--and afterwards he was free as usual to choose whatever he wanted.

He went along with this and then shocked me the next day by announcing 'Mom I want to tell you something". Then he gave me a hug and said very seriously "Thanks for doing that with the food mom. I know you were trying to help me, and I'm really glad you did. I wasn't making good choices and you really REALLY helped me out the way you said that yesterday".

All I can think is that he needed the choices made for him, in order to get back in tune with the issue. But it was difficult to be sure that was his need since he wasn't saying 'I can't handle this. I need you to make the choice for me". He was just starting to avoid the issue and cling to a pattern of not-so-great decision making. He seems to be relieved rather than resentful if I step in and "take over" at that point.

And fwiw after just that one instance he seems to have snapped back into the driver's seat and is suddenly very agreeable to any offer of a healthy choice first. No whining or acting disappointed at the mention of him needing to consider including a balance in what he eats. Maybe he needed to remind himself that he was still safely within some parenting boundaries that would keep him on the right track. I don't know. I just know that this is something I've seen happen with people in general, including myself--that it can be reassuring to have a loved one step in and provide structure when you've let yourself get slack on an issue. Instead of being disempowering, sometimes it's reassuring to know you are being watched over and another person cares enough to get involved.

[LynnS6]

Hmm... looks like I will need to read it.

The boot fiasco happened at daycare. Ds wanted to go outside in the rain. The teachers wanted him to put his own boots on (he was able to do this). Ds refused. Teachers offered indoor choices. Ds refused. Teachers informed ds that if he wanted to go outside, he needed to do his own boots. Ds sat next to boots for several hours (maybe it just felt like 3 hours) until the next transition time (probably lunch). They weren't 'waiting for the bus' per se, but the expectation was there. He was offered other choices to do that didn't involve putting his boots on, but he did not take them.

I guess the whole approach appeals to me because it's not a matter of choosing between finding a mutually agreeable solution and 'waiting for the bus'. I'm trying to get out of flipping out on my kids. So, it's really a question of me screaming like a banshee vs waiting for the bus. The latter sounds much more reasonable.

We have relatively few expectations of our kids. Mostly is working together as a family. But a few transition points during the day (getting pjs on, bedtime) can be really, really awful.

[lovemyfamily6]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

I guess the whole approach appeals to me because it's not a matter of choosing between finding a mutually agreeable solution and 'waiting for the bus'. I'm trying to get out of flipping out on my kids. So, it's really a question of me screaming like a banshee vs waiting for the bus. The latter sounds much more reasonable.

This sounds exactly why I need to read the book too. Hopefully it will help both of us!

[loraxc]

LynnS, your kids always remind me a lot of my kid, who is very high in persistence and who also struggles with transitions. I posted before in the Wolf vs. Kohn thread that our "bus" doesn't always come either. When this happens, I usually do one of the following:

If I'm feeling at the end of my rope and/or we need to go:

"DD, I'm going to count to 20, and if you aren't in your carseat by 20, I will put you in." (She despises physical coercion.) No punishment, note. Not that gentle, though, maybe.

OR...if I have the time and energy to work harder:

"DD, I see you don't want to put your boots on. The thing is, I think you want to go outside, and you can't go without your boots. I'm worried you'll be disappointed if we don't get to go out. Do you have any ideas about what we could do?"

(State child's position, empathize, present my POV, ask for solution. This is from The Explosive Child, kinda.)

Wolf says that children are very uncomfortable knowing they are deliberately not meeting your expectations, especially when there isn't the satisfaction of emotional engagement over a power struggle as a result.

SO TRUE of DD, but this works best for things like picking up toys, putting her plate in the sink, etc--household expectations. I have been so amazed by how DD does exactly what Wolf says, "But I was GONNA put my toys away!! I was, I WAS!!"

[gaialice]

Originally Posted by lovemyfamily6

How do you do it w/ other children? For example, if I'm waiting/watching one of my 4 year olds and my 5 year old is asking me to come to the playroom with him to see his building or my other 4 year old wants me to read him a story, how do I do that without removing the expectation from the original 4 year old?

I have EXACTLY the same problem. I understand what Heartmama said about inserting a time limit in the expectation, and repeating repeating day after day until it sinks in. However, it does not have much power, after it has been 3 days and the request has never been complied with. It takes artificial calm (which I do not possess) to ask ask ask and just not get compliance, day after day. I am not sure what the alternative is, anyway...

[Ambrose]

What about diapers?

My daughter fights me tooth and nail when it comes time to change her diaper. Like not only an emotional struggle but physical to where I have to occasionally have someone help me hold her down to change her. She hates the idea of me changing her diaper for some reason. She'd rather sit in poop for hours on end which is not acceptable for me.


How could I apply this to that particular situation?

[gaialice]

Ambrose, the waiting for the bus technique does not work for little ones. I'd say I would not even try it before they're 3 yo. For the diaper changes, did you try just putting her in the bathtub? Letting her spash while you wash her? I posted a while ago about playfully changing diapers.. sorry cannot write more my 4 yo WANTS TO GO TO PARK NOWWWWW

[maya44]

Originally Posted by gaialice

Ambrose, the waiting for the bus technique does not work for little ones. I'd say I would not even try it before they're 3 yo. For the diaper changes, did you try just putting her in the bathtub? Letting her spash while you wash her? I posted a while ago about playfully changing diapers.. sorry cannot write more my 4 yo WANTS TO GO TO PARK NOWWWWW

Yep, these techniques were not meant for kids under age three and its really better at age four to five. Before then, you want to use other methods like distraction, re-direction etc... especially for something like a diaper change.

[lovemyfamily6]

Excellent. It sounds like this is the perfect time for us to get the book. Our twins will be 4 next month and the big guy is 5 1/2.

Our library doesn't have the book (or any books even remotely GD). I'm going to check at Border's tonight and buy it or order it if they don't have it in store. I told dh about it and he's on board since we've turned into parents that resort to threats or raising our voice for our kids to listen.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

I guess the whole approach appeals to me because it's not a matter of choosing between finding a mutually agreeable solution and 'waiting for the bus'. I'm trying to get out of flipping out on my kids. So, it's really a question of me screaming like a banshee vs waiting for the bus. The latter sounds much more reasonable.

I am SOOOOO feelin ya there! That's where I'm at exactly!

Originally Posted by Ambrose

My daughter fights me tooth and nail when it comes time to change her diaper. Like not only an emotional struggle but physical to where I have to occasionally have someone help me hold her down to change her. She hates the idea of me changing her diaper for some reason. She'd rather sit in poop for hours on end which is not acceptable for me.


How could I apply this to that particular situation?

I did something sorta like this to help with diaper changes when my ds was younger. It was a more TCC flavor though. I'd sit and wait until I could sense that ds was going to be agreeable to a diaper change (so, definitely not in the middle of playing, unless it was something he could bring with him). That also involved calming myself, and *knowing* that he WOULD be agreeable to it, as long as I waited for a respectful time. Then I'd TELL ds that it was time for a diaper change. I generally would go get him at that point, and carry him over (it was quite agreeable to him) to get changed.
During changes, I'd play games or tell rhymes or whatever. His favorite was a kissing game, where I'd kiss his toes, etc. I imagine that would STILL get us through diaper changes smoothly, if we ever had an issue. But at this point he is usually the one who ASKS for his diaper to be changed, and gets mad if we take even a second. lol

ftr, my ds is 2.75 and Wolf's ideas work well with him. But it's always seemed to me that his social skills (or whatever you'd call them) were a bit ahead of his age. He's quite aware of interpersonal relationships, etc.

[LynnS6]

I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who's struggling with the banshee!

Originally Posted by loraxc

If I'm feeling at the end of my rope and/or we need to go:

"DD, I'm going to count to 20, and if you aren't in your carseat by 20, I will put you in." (She despises physical coercion.) No punishment, note. Not that gentle, though, maybe.

OR...if I have the time and energy to work harder:

"DD, I see you don't want to put your boots on. The thing is, I think you want to go outside, and you can't go without your boots. I'm worried you'll be disappointed if we don't get to go out. Do you have any ideas about what we could do?"

Loraxc - I agree our kids appear to be temperamentally very similar. Hearing what works for kids like this helps me a lot. Thanks!

I do the first thing (it's more coercive than I'd ideally be, but it is sometimes what we need to do), but the second gives me another tool in my toolbox. Ds is actually really good with things like getting into his carseat, getting dressed, etc. It's really just going to bed and picking up at clean up time that are the big issues.

Dd, on the other hand, is at a good stage to try the second approach sometimes. "Dd I see you don't want to go potty. You want to take a nap on our bed. I'm afraid that you'll pee on our bed when you're asleep if you don't go potty. Do you have any ideas about what we can do?"

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by Ambrose

My daughter fights me tooth and nail when it comes time to change her diaper. Like not only an emotional struggle but physical to where I have to occasionally have someone help me hold her down to change her. She hates the idea of me changing her diaper for some reason. She'd rather sit in poop for hours on end which is not acceptable for me.


How could I apply this to that particular situation?

Thoughts about diaper changing. For our kids, what works really well is a modified version of 'waiting for the bus". "Dd, in two minutes, it's going to be time to change your diaper." You put the expectation out there, and give them a little transition time. Then you wait for a good break in what they're doing (so it could be 2-5 minutes - usually for toddlers they're not engaged for that long), and announce "it's time to change your diaper" very matter of factly and lead them there.

I often combined that with some Playful Parenting techniques - like I'd chase them up stairs and threaten to tickle them. Or I'd sing the Laurie Berkner song "I'm gonna catch you".

I also changed my kids on top of a changing table - it was fairly narrow, so there wasn't much room to wiggle (beds were a disaster because they would just roll around). It was also high enough that I could grab their feet between the ankles and lift them both up together to get things clean in a hurry. It is hard to struggle with just your shoulders on the changing table! Once the poop was off, I would let them stand up and we'd finish standing up.Some people I know mastered diaper changes standing up. I was never that coordinated!

For me, diaper changing is a health issue - my kids were prone to pretty awful rashes. Thus, they could not sit in poop. I would make them as pleasant as I could, but it wasn't optional. If I remember, the awful "fight while changing" stage lasted about 6 weeks for each child. I was very matter of fact, and pretty firm about the whole thing.