help, GD after a family trauma

[moma justice]

hi, i need advice.
first i have been very ap and mostly gd since dd's birth...i come from a very violent home as a child and so it has been a huge rebirth of my person to be gd, but i have been...and am trying so hard to stay that way.

my dd is about to turn four and we have had 3 major life changes this year

first, we had a full term still birth with her little sister in sept...and we have ALL had a long road and dealing with and recovering from that

second, we moved shortly after we lost our dd...i lived too far away from friends and family and we also NEEDED to get out of that apt and that city, so we moved to a new state....

third, i am newly preg again...16 weeks...we are very happy and think that everything will turn out great with this one. but i know it is all hard on dd.

my dh works alot and i do too (both from home, with her: taking care of other children and also i am a fund raiser for a non profit) we have so much debt with our dd's death and the sudden move etc...

we have been in our new home for about 6 months and it has been 8 months since our dd died.

so i just feel lost in her demandind tantrums and control issues.
i want to honor and respect her and set a standard that she also honors and respects others (like me and dh!!)

seh has always been intense and demanding (even from in utero) so that is no different.

it IS different now that she is so verbal and fixed on how she wants everything to be.

i keep on trying to be the person i want her to be; gentle, patient, calm, respectful communication, willing to compromise, etc

i try to be that example with her and my husband...we have all been trough so much...and this preg is a huge leap of faith for all of us and brings up a lot of greif.

i *think* that her behavior is well within the norm for her age (from what i know from my sister's kids, my friend's children, and just random kids in teh grocery store....

my problem is, i guess, is that i want to handle her misbehavior/testing of limits in a way that she can grow in positive ways...not traumatize her any more than she has....


she has started calling me stupid often (NOT a word we say in our house...and we do not have a TV...i know she just picked it up and sees that is gets soem rise out of me)...she wakes up often hitting us or pulling our hair (GOD KNOWS WHY)
she also threatens us a lot "if you do not give me X then i will kick you" WTF????

i try to warn her/tell her the correct way to express herself the first time and if she does not quit the behavoir, i take her to the bathroom (some times with me sometimes she has to be by herself...i chose the b-room so that she could pee or wash her face off if she wanted/needed...and there are not alot of fun things for her in there....)
for 5 minutes and i set a timer...then we talk about it and she usually apologizes and feels better....

somedays it feels like we do this too often thouugh...
and i do not like her hurting us or saying mean stuff...

anyway, any advice is welcome

[Roar]

Wow, that is a huge amount. So much for all of you to go through!

My suggestions would be:

1. Try to have a calm and predictable routine in your home as much as you can. That goes a long way to addressing problems for a lot of kids.

2. Empathy, empathy, empathy. Let her get those feelings out in ways that are appropriate. Acknowledge the underlying feeling of sadness, anger, etc. and direct her toward something she can do. I would strongly encourage you to get an appropriate physical outlet for her negative feelings - it could be a punching bag, pillow, etc. but I would make a point of having places where she can kick and feel good about it. I don't think empathy followed up by "you better not do that again or you are on time out" really works as well as just pure empathy.

3. I would really encourage you to get rid of the time out in the bathroom. If she needs to learn to take a break, I'd try to set up a positive spot - a bean bag in the corner with a teddy, books, etc. and make it be a gentle thing and be willing to sit with her. I would also discourage the timer. We did "take a break" at our house but the purpose is to feel better. The minutes on the timer make it about serving a punitive sentence and that really takes away from the central mission to calm down and feel better.

4. Use humor: It sounds to me like she's figured out "stupid", etc. gets a rise out of you. What is a way you can take the steam out of that? In the book Playful parenting the author suggests a fun approach to handle this. I don't have the book here, but my recollection was something like this "oh no you found out my secret name, I hope you didn't find out the other one." and then he whispers into the kid's ear "what ever you do don't call me doodleydoodleydoo" or something silly like that.

5. Avoid power struggles. Some of these you may not agree with, but I bet you can find some things that work on this list: http://www.positivediscipline.com/articles/power.html

[warriorprincess]

I know how hard discipline is after a tragedy like that. ( we lost our little boy in Feb '05). With one of my kids counseling became neccesary- but I don't think it sounds like your DD is at that point. It might help to play with her a lot- lots of board/card games in our house. Most importantly make sure you are taking care of YOU.

[hippymomma69]

First I want to say that I am so, so sorry for your loss (losses from your sig line! I'm sorry for all your losses!)

Second, it does sound like your DD needs a safe space to really get her feelings out. If you can afford it maybe you can see if you can do some play therapy for her...if not, maybe you could read Playful Parenting and use some of the techniques of letting her lead the playtime with you to get out some of the feelings. This helped immensely with my DD with the birth of her little brother - she had LOTS of strong feelings about giving up her one on one time with mommy....it's not the same thing I know but I do think the easiest way for kids to get out some of their feelings is through play.

Anyway, that would be my suggestion....good luck and I hope you have a very safe and happy pregnancy this time!
peace,
robyn

[moma justice]

i want to add a general GD question...i obviously want to support her in a way to move out of the negative behaviors...however, i feel so confused about giving her "mixed messages" in that if she is hitting us (out of ht eblue often times) then it *seems* like putting her in a room by her self should make her see that there is a consequence for that choice.

being from a violent home, I have little tolerance for people (even her) getting violent with me...I want space after she hits me...isn' that a natural consequence?

or if she hits another child in our home, shouldn't she have to be seperated off from them?

and she is SO STRONG WILLED (unbelievable) i do not think she would just sit in the special place....she is such a rebel with out a cause, and has been since birth


but please bring on the advice, and thanks for what you all have said so far.

[HarperRose]

I just wanted to give you a because after a loss, dealing with the aftermath for everyone is tragic and very emotional.

We lost one at 12 wks in Aug 05 and my dd was there. "Is that the baby?" *knife to heart* She was 2 mos shy of 4. We chose to process this the way one would process any other death; we had a burial and I made a little casket and everything. DD was with us through the whole thing.

Even now, at 5.5 yrs old, she cries about her sister (we think it was a girl), she misses Adia, she wishes she was alive, etc. It's very difficult to deal with.

DD now sees the school counselor whenever she feels like she needs to, I see a counselor, dh goes with me. It's been a very good thing for us.

I would recommend counseling. She may be young, but it's clear that she's having trouble processing everything in her life, as are you.

[Roar]

Originally Posted by moma justice

i want to add a general GD question...i obviously want to support her in a way to move out of the negative behaviors...however, i feel so confused about giving her "mixed messages" in that if she is hitting us (out of ht eblue often times) then it *seems* like putting her in a room by her self should make her see that there is a consequence for that choice.

The question is do people need to suffer to learn. Do they learn better when they feel bad? I think what she's showing you with her actions is no. People don't do better when they feel worse. They do worse. You've tried isolation and it hasn't worked. Sometimes what kids need most is to see when they are at their worst that we care about how they feel and that we still offer love and hugs.

Also, I would really take a minute to think about it being a "choice". While from an adult perspective we can see a tantrum as a choice often for the kid involved in the moment it is about as controllable as a sneeze or a cough.

One thing that may help is focusing less on what to do with after the tantrum and more on prevention. Can you tell us more about the kinds of issues involved when she has tantrums? Is it a particular time of day? Over particular issues?

Originally Posted by moma justice

being from a violent home, I have little tolerance for people (even her) getting violent with me...I want space after she hits me...isn' that a natural consequence?

That sounds really hard. If you need to separate I'd suggest that you separate yourself from her rather than forcing her to separate from the family.

Originally Posted by moma justice

and she is SO STRONG WILLED (unbelievable) i do not think she would just sit in the special place....she is such a rebel with out a cause, and has been since birth

If you can I'd strongly suggest getting these two books: Kids, Parents and Power Struggles by Mary Kurchinka and The Explosive Child by Ross Green. There are approaches that work well with intense kids. Both of these books will explain why time outs often don't work and breed more resentment and more misbehavior.

[moma justice]

she WAKES Up violent, so i can not imagine what the problem is...even on mornings where i get her to pee first thing and she has a little snack (things that almost always prevent negative behavior during the day) she will STILL get back in bed with us, be snuggling and then all of a sudden do something violent or say something mean....

she was like this before the baby came....she used to wake us up by slapping me in the face since she was a little younger than two....i don't know
i am not trying to say she is a bad seed (she is actually most times very sweet loving thoughtful and helpful...)

i just recently started the warning and then time out practice...b/c i felt like she was getting too old for these behaviors and "loving her through them" seemed to inspire her to try harder to push buttons.

maybe if i would have never reacted upset, explained that these behaviors are not excpetable, etc....she would have dropped them long ago...

but since i have not done that, i can 't go back and redo any of my reaction to her behaviors...and at my worst, i have felt and acted very upset when she hits someone or what ever....

from now on is all i have....i just want her to be a little more socially functional than this....this does not seem ok for an almost 4 year old....


i try and keep her doing positve activity that gets out tension (we got a big trampoline for the whole family for that reason)....she sings songs for/to her sister about death....i really encourage her to take space when she is feeling fustrated...

i don't know...can you hear the "over it" tone here???

i don't know what to do.

[Roar]

Over it and all you've been through to me says...therapy. Have you considered it as an option?

I'm also going to again suggest the book The Explosive Child.

[gaialice]

Moma justice I've been thinking about this thread a lot... I was thinking did you model a nice way for her to wake you up... like you can say... Ouch that hurts, I do not like you waking me up that way.. .this is the way I like to be woken up... and make a big thing out of it. You know, it will be easier for her to go out of her way and make a big production about waking you up gently rather than simply saying mom... I know she's young, but maybe (or maybe not, it depends on the child) she would be able to fix a little breakfast and take it to bed to you? Even just a glass of cold milk and a cookie... Depends on the little one, I know, because my dd1 at age 4 would have been able to do these things without major spills while dd2 still is not... but then maybe you can make it easy for her by putting the ingredients on the counter... I know you do not watch TV, but maybe you can watch a little movie about a husband fixing a nice breakfast for his wife and taking it to bed for her, then gently stroking her cheek, singing a song... or else make a movie...
we've had trauma in my family and - although it is minor when compared to yours - it was soo much for me... Dd1, who is 6, was hit by a paraglider as I was skiing with her, and she was unconscious for a few seconds, then came to, then needed to be transported by helicopter to the hospital, and I could not go with her because the helicopter has no space for passengers... then I finally joined her at the hospital (it took almost 2 hours) and learnt that she suffered liver wounds and had a broken arm... now she's fine, she's fine... but it is hard... I am depressed and there is no reason to it... I have never been the paragon of GD and have yelled in the past, occasionally, but since the accident it has been dayly... I am ashamed... I hope you are able to be really gentle with yourself ... who cares for your dd while you and dh work? Does she go to pre-K? Big hugs and sorry for your losses...

[moma justice]

hey mommas,
thanks for all your advice,
i have done alot of soul searching and prayer since my original post and i think even the act of quieting down to listen for an answer has opened up a bitter sweet place of healing for my whole family.

i have been talking and listening to my daugter on a much deeper and more compassionate level...wich has already helped so much.

we have already gotten out a lot of saddness and fustration and i alreay see results in our communication and abilty to both speak and be heard (both of us, maybe even ALL of us!) which is just so awesome.

so thank you.

sometimes things not working are not reason to feel lost but reason to be open to growing more....

my dd and i are proud of each other!