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post #21 of 278
I had forgotten about SB 's gift to HP. I was frustrated he didn't go to Snape. I didn't even get that upset when SB died. But when Harry read the note on the mirror I started weeping and by the time he finished talking to Sir Nick I was totally sobbing. I guess I never really cared that much about Sirius, but I care a lot about Harry.

I think it's impossible to say who the prophecy referred to originally... but V chose Harry. We will never know what would have happened if he had called at the Longbottom house.

I feel like we are swallowing some bitter pills in this one. In teh past books, even with CD dying, it has always felt more like a fairy tale world, where you just know it will all be okay by the last page and the heroes will do the right thing. In this one Harry had to face his own flaws as a Hero and while Dumbledore came back and things are right at Hogwarts again, it was hardly a fairy story. There was a point in the scene in Dumbledores office when Fudge tried to arrest him that I thought Hogwarts was going to turn into the school from "Taps".
post #22 of 278
kama, did you read the interview with rowling where she says that sirius' death is the first of the siginificant deaths that will occur? i was like, oh god who else is going to get murdered? i was really scared for mr. weasley.

and can i say that i sincerely hope percy gets a kick in the teeth? what a pompous fool.

wouldn't it be fun to have harry be the DATDA teacher at the end of book 7?
post #23 of 278
faeriemom, no problem. It is all just our opinions. No one is "right or wrong".

I think Rowling is used to the British way of childrearing which is historically detached. I do think it comes across in the book, and it's always bothered me a bit. Boarding school is bad enough--I would never skimp on holidays too, especially back when the kids were even younger, like 11 and 12. In the first book Ron stays with Harry because his parents visit his older brother during Christmas. Sorry, I would not skip Christmas with my 11 year old, I'd take him with me on the trip! As far as this latest summer for Hermione...if my daughter was in danger from a dark lord, I would go with her to the hideout, Muggle or not. Let them modify my memory later if they must.

And I just don't get Mrs. Weasley, other than she is always nice to Harry. I can't relate to not seeing my kids for 10 months, and then yelling and fussing and carrying on like that when I did see them. Just can't relate. I would be ecstatic to see them and loving every minute of the litle time we had.

I'm not sure Sirius is gone. Probably, but not sure. The way no one talked about where he went, or what the arch was....

I thought what Dumbledore had to say was interesting, about Sirius not treating his house elf right at the end. Dumbledore's school is staffed with house elves. Was he really saying it's not whether you own slaves, but how you treat them that counts? What did you all think about that? How did you take that?

Okay, enough negatives. I really enjoyed the book. Snape's character was very interesting, and I think Umbridge was written brilliantly. I could feel my blood pressure rise the moment she started "Hem Hemming"....I loved to hate her!
post #24 of 278
ok..I'm a dolt here.. What HAPPEND at the end?? Harry was "possessed" by Voldemort by the fountain and the next thing he's waking up with Dumbledore stand/laying (?) by him talking. What happend to Voldie?

Plus..did any one else choke up when "they" were trying to take Hagrid?? Man, I thought he was a goner and harry and everyone had to stand there and watch. Was Fang killed?
post #25 of 278
Quote:
Originally posted by kama'aina mama
I think it's impossible to say who the prophecy referred to originally... but V chose Harry. We will never know what would have happened if he had called at the Longbottom house.

But if the kid in the prophecy was not *supposed* to be Harry, then the Avada Kedavra would have killed him instead of just giving him the scar, cause it did hit him?? *I* don't think Dumbledore is saying V chose Harry to be the one in the prophecy, but that he chose to come after Harry first, and with what happened during that meeting shows that Harry was the child mentioned in the prophecy...which is why Dumbledore says when Harry questions him "there is no doubt it was you"
I think the whole point was that there was another child born at the same time that the prophecy could have applied to, but V came after Harry first, and Harry showed to be the child by what happened when V tried to kill him, thus fulfilling the words of the prophecy. V did not know that Harry had powers that he would not himself know of.(relating to the love protection gained from his mother who died to protect him)

I am really excited to see how Neville will continue to develop, and I see a battle for him in the future where he himself will use the Avada Kedavra curse on Bellatrix Lestrange, and he will have the power to do it as he will really "mean it" and really "want to cause the death" in retribution for his parents.

Quote:
ok..I'm a dolt here.. What HAPPEND at the end?? Harry was "possessed" by Voldemort by the fountain and the next thing he's waking up with Dumbledore stand/laying (?) by him talking. What happend to Voldie?
Yes, V possessed Harry at the end, and tried to get Dumbledore to kill Harry in hopes of killing him, Voldemort. But when Harry had the thoughts of pure love inside of him, it kicked Voldemort out as he cannot deal with that type of magic(the ancient magic that has helped to protect Harry all along by family members pressence--that which lies in the Dept of Mysteries) It was his heart and love inside it that saved him from Voldemort's possession.
post #26 of 278
Rowling borrowed a bit from Shakespeare!

In Hamlet, Polonius realizes he underestimated Prince Hamlet because of Hamlet's young age.

In OOP, Dumbledore realizes the same thing about Harry.

From Hamlet (Polonius talking about Prince Hamlet):

"I am sorry that with better heed and judgement I had not quoted him. . . .It seems it is as proper to our [old] age to cast beyond ourselves in our opinions, as it is common for the younger sort to lack discretion."

From OOP (Dumbledore to Harry): pg. 826 in the American edition.

"Harry, I owe you an explanation. An explanation of an old man's mistakes. For I see now that what I have done, and not done, with regard to you, bears the hallmarks of the failings of age. Youth cannot know how age thinks and feels. But old men are guilty if they forget what it was to be young."


Personally, I found this connection interesting!!
post #27 of 278
Perhaps if Voldemort had tried to kill baby harry before killing Lily, he WOULD have been successful. Dumbledore has always said that what saved Harry that night was the love of his dying mother -- the fact that she died trying to save him. It was the magic of her sacrifice that protected Harry, so that Voldemort wasn't able to kill him.

What would have happened if V had gone after Neville first? Would he have been killed, or would V not have been able to kill him for some reason? Maybe we'll never know, but I like to imagine the possibilities.

I really believe all of this is key to the story and is foreshadowing something to come in books 6 & 7. I can't imagine any reason why JKR would have even put that bit in if it wasn't important at some point. Plus, in her TV interview the other night, she said that the end of book 5 would give many clues to what's coming in the next two books.

I can't wait!!!!!

And I'm not so upset about Sirius anymore because the more I think about it, and go back and re-read it, the more I believe we haven't seen the last of him....in one form or another.

Oh yeah, Mrs. Weasley isn't a typical Mothering-type mom. But I still think she's great and there's no doubt that she loves her kids. In real life I'm sure I'd question why they don't all spend more time together, but in the book it works. Plus, in the wizarding world don't all kids go away to wizard school? I mean, it's not like some go and some stay home (though reading about homeschooling wizards would be kindof cool!). Maybe because it's not like the parents' choice for them to go away, they don't really think about it. Hmmm....I've never given this much thought before. When I go back to re-read the series, I'm going to pay more attention to the whole away-at-school issue.
post #28 of 278
Exactly faeriemom! I also wonder if the 'mark him as an equal' part refers not just to the scar but to another meaning of mark, as in "notice". He tried to kill Harry the same way he killed full fledged. powerfull wizards and witches. There are much simpler ways to kill a small, helpless baby. But he attacked him like he was an equal. Had he not he A) may have succeeded in killing him and B) may not have been so badly hurt by his failure. And I agree that the way fate/prophecy, etc works.. it may have been Neville, or both or neither until Voldie took action. Self fulfilling prophecy is the best kind. Ask Oedipus!

Mamajulie, it seems like I noticed a lot of cribbing from the classics but I can't recall them all now. JK has definetly done her reading!
post #29 of 278

Oh Hilary briss that is just mean LOL

**I** Want to know by who Hermione would succumb to death
so much for a love triangle then eh??

I read a bunch of the spoliers this morning. dd said I ruined it for myself ( we got my book yesterday) and said to the contrary it made me want to start even more!!
She says she has a question for the spoiler mama's though ..

"how did Dudley's gang get bigger? Did he bully more people ? or ???"
post #30 of 278
CL: Well, the books leave most of Dudleys life to the imagination but I have a theory. We know Dudums is spoiled rotten. So, by simple virtue of always having the latest video game, toy, etc he is bound to attrack hangers-on of a certain lower character. As he has gotten older I also expect he is the kid who always has an inappropriate amount of pocket money which continues to attract similar parasites. If he is boxing at school he may be making friends with the more thuggish among that set as well. Dudley has lots of chums because he almost always comes out on top, by hook or by crook but none of them are true friends. None of them would go much out of their way to help him if things got tough. He has no friends the likes of Hermione and Ron, that's for sure!
post #31 of 278
I forgot if I read this in the other thread, but I agree that I'm glad we got a bigger, more realistic picture of the Potters besides this perfect in every way image. Although the worst of James was while he was in school and he matured I'm sure. Still, I thought "Snape's worst Memory" was one of the most engrossing chapters! I've never hated him or "loved to hate" him, even when he was downright rottonly unfair to Harry in the past. Dh going on about the deal with Snape and the animagi gang is one of the reasons I finally picked up and started HP earlier this year, I found the whole thing intriguing. All around one of my favorite, most complex characters. Helps to have a mental image of Gary Oldman in my head too.

I don't think we've seen the total end to Sirius as well, Luna's comment at the end might have well been an airplane banner going across the sky...

Neville....I've been rooting for him since the beginning, when he was so bumbling his grandmother must have wondered if he was a Squib. I thought it was one of the biggest revealing moments when Dumbledore told Harry about Neville's parents. One of my "almost crying" moments was when Neville took the candy wrapper his mother gave him and instead of throwing it out he put it in his pocket. I felt so proud that the DA was helping him with his jinxes and spells. As far as the possibility that he could have been the "one" but V jumped the gun and changed things is really interesting. I believe HP is the one still but wonder what major role Neville is being set up for.

Minerva... I actually had a teacher like her :LOL With the stern looks and rules with iron fist attitude. Every time she opened her mouth I was like "Go Minerva, tell that bitch Umbridge off, Go Minerva!" Being that I'm sure McGonnegal is an extremely powerful witch I was glad to see her show it off, until she was stunned 5 x's at once anyways

Umbridge....must be pretty bad when the character is SO bad I had to put down the book after every "ehm ehm" and should "I HATE HER!" that's excellent writing. I was taken aback at her news that she was the one that sent the dementors after Harry. Probably since it was the beginning of the book I stopped considering that little mystery after a while. She was getting so bad I kept saying to Dh "I wouldn't be surprised if she was not only Fudge's right hand but also loyal to V somehow" I think she was just power hungry, but now may have such a beef with Potter and Co that I think it's possible she would help out V or a Death Eater somehow in the future.

Hermione....I also agreed she relaxed quite a bit, especially considering she was a prefect! In the beginning of the book I was like groan moan what will they be able to do as prefects, but as the year wore on I nearly forgot about it save for the occasional mention. I think since book 2, really, she's been mellowing out.

Harry....so angry. Seemed like he yelled at everyone through out the whole book the whole time. Got angst? I was so relieved to see Dumbledore letting Harry have his fit, he deserved to, course it was more raw grief at that point too. I was pretty much crying with Harry by then.

On borrowing from Shakespeare, I think it's a commonality with good writers. Shakespeare touched upon so many universal truths and isms so eloquently, who can resist? I think Rowling does her research as well. One time Dh was reading a historical fiction, I believe, and came across Nicholas Flamel. He appearantly was a real person, an alchemist from the middle ages. Neato!
post #32 of 278
Good point about Hermione, Jesse. What I see happening with her is that as she is seeing more and more that authority figures can be wrong and even immoral she is discovering a true morality. Rather than simply slavishly following rules she is making judgements for herself, which is a big step in maturity. (She was always precocious but in some ways immature, IMO)

hhmmm.. On the subject of predictions, I noticed several references to the Weasley twins being much better at magic than was generally noticed before. With them members of D.A. and out in London making money, having a storefront, does anyone else see them stepping out as very important members of the Voldemort Resistance? (A term I just made up to cover both the Order of the Phoenix and Dumbledore's Army.)

PS, yes Jesse, in the Anti-Spoiler thread that was exactly what I meant! But I don't want to track my spoiler covered boots all over their nice clean thread.
post #33 of 278
man, I didn't even read this post--not a word! but just the idea that I could *know* before I read it has my stomach butterflying all over the place! Just wanted to share that!

leah
post #34 of 278
I thought Snapes Worst Enemy would be something related to his days as a death eater. I was very surprised it had to do with James.

JesseMom...Gary Oldman? Alan Rickman is Snape



...sure hope mamapie didn't see that
post #35 of 278
I did a quick read (and igored the house) this weekend and finished the book Sunday night.

OK... Harry forgetting the things Sirius gave him for communicated drove me nuts. I would have been yelling if DS wasn't sleeping.

I remember Dumbledoore mentioning to Fudge that the bad guys were in the "death room," so I felt the veil was a portal to the realm of the dead. Anyone else ever hear of/use the phrase "passing through the veil" as a euphanism (sp) for death? I originally took Luna's comment about meeting again as a general hope for life after death (i.e. someday Harry will die and then they'll meet). When Cederic died, that was it. Not very pleasant, not a fairy tale, he was gone. I expected JKR to do the same with Sirius. But I'd love to think that Luna knew something more about this life and its meetings. =)

As for the house elves and their language, yes, I agree that their vocabulary is very submissive. But it's what they're comfortable with. They don't want the hats, the girl elf (don't remember her name) has become an alcoholic with her freedom. I think they should be treated with respect as intelligent beings, but Hermione's attempts at forcing freedom are cruel too.

And I noticed the lacking Halloween party too. Ah well.

Snape as a father figure is interesting. I'd love for Snape to grow up a bit himself and get over it. But I don't think it'll happen becuase he's the double agent. If he gets all close and cozy with Harry then... well, I guess Snape could tell Voldemort that it's in an attempt to hurt him... dunno.

When I was reading the beginning when Harry and Dudley were walking home and Harry was picking on Dudders, I was a bit disappointed in him. I wanted Harry to be better than I would be in the same situation I guess. I wouldn't begin to argue that Dud didn't have it coming, just that Harry seemed the bully there and I didn't like it on him. And his yelling at everyone drove me nuts too. I suppose once he's over puberty it'll be better. =)

I just realized they didn't eat any chocolate after the dementors attack...

Seeing James as a bully bothered me too. I felt for Snape a lot (I guess it's becuase I was not one of the popular girls in school).

The horse thing had me thinking too. Harry saw Cederic die so he can now see the horses. But Harry also saw the DATDA teacher die in book 1, and Tom Riddle die in book 2. The Tom Riddle one's a reach since he was a ghost of sorts, but the teacher was a real human who crumbled before him... didn't he? Or was Harry knocked out by then? Or perhaps it has to be someone you regret to loose...

I meant to reread 1-4 (at least 3-4) before getting into 5. I forgot who Buckbeak was and barely remembered Snuffles. Shame on me. Now the movies are out, the books are falling out of my head. Now that I've flown through 5, I think I'll take it easy and start at the beginning again. =)

~Melissa
post #36 of 278
Melissa... the winged horse thing bothered me too. Heck, didn't he see his parents, or at least his Mother die when he was a babe? Anyway....

I don't think Snape is double. I do think he loved Lily Evans, which would add all kinds of layers and dimensions to the schoolboy antics Harry witnessed. Delores now... think on this. Kreacher tells Mrs Lucious Malfoy, wife of a deatheater and possibly a deatheater herself that Harry and Sirius are close and the next thing you know Delores (who sent Dementors, on the verge of outright rebellion and defection to Voldie, to attack Harry) is asking Harry where Sirious is. It ain't a coincidence. Bitch is a Deatheater.

heartmama... Gary Oldman will be playing Sirius Black.

I continue to mull the houseelf question and suspect it may need it's own thread.
post #37 of 278
kama'aina'mama....this is terrible...who *is* Gary Oldman? She has mentioned Snape, so I was thinking about Rickman.

Hmmm, I forgot the third movie would have all these new characters that stay in 4 and 5 too. Who will be Lupin? Does anyone know?

I don't think Harry *saw* Quirrel die, I seem to remember Voldemort knocking him out or something. And it's possible Harry's mom and dad were killed outside his nursery, where he didn't see what was going on.

House elves....should I start the thread? I am perplexed with Dumbledore's attitude about it at the end of book 5. I have always been rooting for Hermione's S.P.E.W. campaign to make some impact at school. Although she could use a better name for it....
post #38 of 278
heartmma... Well, again... we are having conflict with the book and the movies. The movie shows Harry see his mother die. But that doesn't mean JK has to go along... Also in the movies we have repeatedly seen that the kids are fully dressed under their robes, so how could Snapes worst memory have gone that way? Ugh! Head. Hurts.

Now, as to Gary Oldman, I will help you out.
http://us.imdb.com/Name?Oldman,+Gary

And this http://us.imdb.com/Title?0304141 is the current cast list for Azkhaban. Many Brits that you may not have heard of.

I re-read the long discussion between Dumbledore and Harry last night and cried all over again. Partly because I realised that in my head I was hearing Richard Harris say the words and that is the only place I will ever hear him do that.
post #39 of 278
Wow, they nailed that bit of casting. He looks so much like my mental image of Sirius. Thank you so much for the links.

And Thewlis sounds familiar but I didn't see a headshot.

Now I'll have to get the movie out. For some reason I thought Lily died blocking the door to Harry's nursery, and the blast from Voldemort blew the door open and killed Lily. Or maybe that is how I pictured it from the book. It's possible he was sleeping and all the commotion woke him up too.

I was trying out the DVD player on this computer last night with the Chamber of Secrets. Richard Lewis already looked so much frailer in that than the first movie. I had forgotten he died and looking at him was so sad. I will miss him too.
post #40 of 278
Richard Harris I can't imagine how they are going to replace him.

Quote:
JesseMom...Gary Oldman? Alan Rickman is Snape
I must have been thinking of who is supposed to play Sirius, supposedly? :

So I'll restate it. It helps to have a mental image of Alan Rickman in my head

I claim lack of sleep this weekend from reading this book!

There was a pic of Oldman on that website under "gallery" where one of his characters realllly looks like a Sirius

Is it me or do movies just "shoot" your imaginings of how you thought things looked and how you thought people looked?


I think I have a lot to say about the house elves....new thread?
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