Watch your language: "normal" birth - Page 2

[lyttlewon]

Originally Posted by YumaDoula

I don't consider anything that happens in a hospital as "natural." However, I've attended a lot of med-free (pain meds, that is) births at the hospital.

Yes I say unmedicated, as in pain medication, because my hospital birth was not "natural". I had cervadil to help start my labor, fetal monitoring, pitocin after birth etc. Vaginal birth is a good way I guess to seperate it from C-section but definitly wouldn't call a medical birth natural.

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by intorainbowz

I know some people who had c/s do not call them "births". That is fine for them, as that is their experience they are describing and they are entitled to use whatever language they choose.

For me, and MANY mothers who gave BIRTH by c/s, we do consider it a birth. I find the implication that a c/s is not a birth offensive and dismissive of my life experience. Not to mention what that means for my baby if people don't consider her having been "birthed".

I gave birth. Life came from my body. Period.

So if we are watching our language, please remember that for most women and society as a whole, a c/s is a BIRTH first and formost.

I understand what you're saying, and of course I don't think any differently of DS#2 because he was delivered by CS, and of course we celebrate his birthday, not his "surgery day." I don't mean to dismiss anyone's experience. Still, it seems to me that categorizing Cesarean surgery as "birth" is buying into the medical attitude that there's no difference between the process of birth and a surgical procedure.
I went through labour and birth for my first two children. My third couldn't be born without very likely dying in the process. The surgery was done in order to bypass birth. It probably saved his life, and I'm grateful for it, but the operation wasn't a birth, according to any reasonable definition I can think of. To equate them seems extremely disrepectful of the nature of birth itself.

[felix23]

The dictionary that I have defines birth as :The emergence and separation of offspring from the body of the mother. To me that includes a c-section birth. I have no problem saying that my dd's birth was not natural in the least bit, but I still say that I gave birth. My c-section was the point in time where Lilly was seperated from my body, so I don't see why I wouldn't refer to this time as her birth. It was a medical procedure that resulted in Lilly's birth.

[chinaKat]

Sigh. I'm really starting to hate MDC.

Those of you who sit around smugly thinking that an unmedicated birth that took place outside of a hospital was somehow more normal or natural than my unmedicated birth that took place in a hospital, I hope you feel good about yourselves for belittling my birth. Really, I do.

And those of you who actually announce that a c-section isn't a birth at all, well, you really ought to be proud of yourselves. That thought, as unwelcome as it is, will surely be in my mind in the next few weeks as I undergo my non-elective c-section. Can't wait for that warm and fuzzy feeling.

You are creating a closed community here that does not feel welcoming at all. I hope you and your Vastly Superior Births enjoy it.

[Lady Lilya]

As far as I am concerned, the location is irrelevent.

Also, since linguists consider languages as an evolving thing, and since c/s are commonly referred to as births, I don't think we can really say that they are not births. A different kind of birth, but still a birth.

[witchbaby]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

Sigh. I'm really starting to hate MDC.

Those of you who sit around smugly thinking that an unmedicated birth that took place outside of a hospital was somehow more normal or natural than my unmedicated birth that took place in a hospital, I hope you feel good about yourselves for belittling my birth. Really, I do.

And those of you who actually announce that a c-section isn't a birth at all, well, you really ought to be proud of yourselves. That thought, as unwelcome as it is, will surely be in my mind in the next few weeks as I undergo my non-elective c-section. Can't wait for that warm and fuzzy feeling.

You are creating a closed community here that does not feel welcoming at all. I hope you and your Vastly Superior Births enjoy it.

[lyttlewon]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

Sigh. I'm really starting to hate MDC.

Those of you who sit around smugly thinking that an unmedicated birth that took place outside of a hospital was somehow more normal or natural than my unmedicated birth that took place in a hospital, I hope you feel good about yourselves for belittling my birth. Really, I do.

And those of you who actually announce that a c-section isn't a birth at all, well, you really ought to be proud of yourselves. That thought, as unwelcome as it is, will surely be in my mind in the next few weeks as I undergo my non-elective c-section. Can't wait for that warm and fuzzy feeling.

You are creating a closed community here that does not feel welcoming at all. I hope you and your Vastly Superior Births enjoy it.

The discussion was around the term natural and whether or not a common intervention filled birth could be termed natural. I personally don't think my induction was natural so I wouldn't qualify an induced birth as natural. Most women have some kind of intervention so doesn't that make it different than what nature intended? 95% of my birth was "natural" but I wouldn't qualify it that way. FWIW I don't really think giving birth in a rubber pool in a living room is natural either.

The discussion about c-sections being births is kind of silly. Birth means producing offspring and isn't qualified by how it exits your body. I think that was the whole point of the thread is the term birth by itself doesn't explain the entire process so should it be defined as vaginal vs abdominal birth?

[glendora]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

Sigh. I'm really starting to hate MDC.

Those of you who sit around smugly thinking that an unmedicated birth that took place outside of a hospital was somehow more normal or natural than my unmedicated birth that took place in a hospital, I hope you feel good about yourselves for belittling my birth. Really, I do.

And those of you who actually announce that a c-section isn't a birth at all, well, you really ought to be proud of yourselves. That thought, as unwelcome as it is, will surely be in my mind in the next few weeks as I undergo my non-elective c-section. Can't wait for that warm and fuzzy feeling.

You are creating a closed community here that does not feel welcoming at all. I hope you and your Vastly Superior Births enjoy it.

Yeah... that.

Seriously? Anything that happens in a hospital is "unnatural?"

There have been healers in human communities for as long as there humanity has been around...

Good grief...

And, to say that someone delivered via c/s was never BORN? Does anyone else feel like that's erases the basic humanity of person?

[chinaKat]

I will add that my previous pissy post is not entirely due to this thread, but a general response to spending time in this forum. And, probably, because I'm 39 weeks pregnant and generally irritable.

But I do get really tired of people acting like their births are somehow "better". Better choices or better options for their personal circumstances, maybe. But not better births than mine or anybody else's. That's all.

[Artisan]

Actually, this discussion wasn't about "natural" or whether C-sections are births. It was about using the term "normal" instead of "vaginal".

[lyttlewon]

Originally Posted by Artisan

Actually, this discussion wasn't about "natural" or whether C-sections are births. It was about using the term "normal" instead of "vaginal".

The OP was:

I read something interesting tonight: it was a UK midwifery site, and on its statistics page, it compared their rates of what they called "normal" birth with the "normal" birth rates of a local hospital.

In North America, we tend to use the term "vaginal" birth more often, and sometimes people are now referring to vaginal as "natural" birth.

I like the term "normal" better than "vaginal". Thoughts?

[lyttlewon]

There are a lot of passionate people here and I get what you are saying.

Originally Posted by chinaKat

I will add that my previous pissy post is not entirely due to this thread, but a general response to spending time in this forum. And, probably, because I'm 39 weeks pregnant and generally irritable.

But I do get really tired of people acting like their births are somehow "better". Better choices or better options for their personal circumstances, maybe. But not better births than mine or anybody else's. That's all.

[candiland]

, chinakat.

I believe that a woman has a right to be proud of growing and bringing life into this world, regardless of how it's done. And if she wants to call her cesarean a birth, more power to her, sisters.

As to the terms normal versus natural, I don't really use the term "normal". I am usually more specific: natural, to me, means without Pit, pain meds., etc. I usually specify that it was a painmed.-free birth if it was a Pit birth without pain relief or whatever. I call cesarean sections "cesarean births". Many women already feel powerless over the outcome of a surgical birth. To further disempower their life-giving abilities does not make me feel fuzzy.

I, too, have repeatedly heard references of "natural" birth, only to find out later that the person merely meant vaginal, not medication and intervention-free. Yes, this is weird to me. Very strange indeed.

[2bluefish]

For me it's vaginal birth vs surgical birth. For me, natural childbirth is a "method" of handling labor without medication - if you go 95% of your labor without medication and then take a bit of gas or something in transition, *I'm* not going to say you didn't practice natural childbirth. "Normal" doesn't work for me, because what's normal around here is a surgical birth. Unhindered vs. Managed (but there's lot's of grey).

[angelcat]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

That's the way I use the terminology, too. However, although I use "vaginal birth" I'm not entirely happy with it. It implies that there's another kind of birth that's not vaginal. To me, "birth" means the baby comes out the vagina. Otherwise, it's not birth, it's a surgical procedure.

A c-section IS a birth!!!!!

Originally Posted by chinaKat

Sigh. I'm really starting to hate MDC.

Those of you who sit around smugly thinking that an unmedicated birth that took place outside of a hospital was somehow more normal or natural than my unmedicated birth that took place in a hospital, I hope you feel good about yourselves for belittling my birth. Really, I do.

And those of you who actually announce that a c-section isn't a birth at all, well, you really ought to be proud of yourselves. That thought, as unwelcome as it is, will surely be in my mind in the next few weeks as I undergo my non-elective c-section. Can't wait for that warm and fuzzy feeling.

You are creating a closed community here that does not feel welcoming at all. I hope you and your Vastly Superior Births enjoy it.

yep, same here. I'm mean 'I'm not pregnant, but I agree with the part about starting to hate MDC.

Originally Posted by candiland

, chinakat.

I believe that a woman has a right to be proud of growing and bringing life into this world, regardless of how it's done. And if she wants to call her cesarean a birth, more power to her, sisters.

As to the terms normal versus natural, I don't really use the term "normal". I am usually more specific: natural, to me, means without Pit, pain meds., etc. I usually specify that it was a painmed.-free birth if it was a Pit birth without pain relief or whatever. I call cesarean sections "cesarean births". Many women already feel powerless over the outcome of a surgical birth. To further disempower their life-giving abilities does not make me feel fuzzy.

I, too, have repeatedly heard references of "natural" birth, only to find out later that the person merely meant vaginal, not medication and intervention-free. Yes, this is weird to me. Very strange indeed.

I usually think of natural as drug free, wherever you birth. However, there will always be people (i"m sure I do it, depending who I am talking to) who say natural instead of vaginal, as they don't like to say the word vaginal. If I am talking about it around my father, I"ll say natural instead of vaginal, now that I think about it. He'd jump on me for using the word vaginal in mixed company.

Normal will very for wherever you are talking about.

[Artisan]

Originally Posted by MsElle07

I read something interesting tonight: it was a UK midwifery site, and on its statistics page, it compared their rates of what they called "normal" birth with the "normal" birth rates of a local hospital.


I like the term "normal" better than "vaginal". Thoughts?

But this was the majority of the OP. Plus the thread title was about the word NORMAL, not about whether C-births are births or vaginal births are the only way to go, etc.

[MsElle07]

Goodness... I haven't been around for a few days, and I come back to this! The intent of my post was to talk about the word "normal birth," as I saw it on a UK midwifery site, as opposed to "vaginal birth" as it is usually referred to in North America. When I said people are now often referring to vaginal as "natural" it was a way to illustrate the differences in language for the same thing: when a baby comes out of the vagina.

It was not meant to disparage people who have babies in hospitals or who have C-sections, and I apologize if people took it as such.

The topic I wanted to discuss was whether we should adopt the term "normal" instead of "vaginal" here in the US/Canada.

[Lady Lilya]

FWIW I don't really think giving birth in a rubber pool in a living room is natural either.

I feel the same way.

-----------

"Normal" is a concept that revolves around what is commonly done. Since drug-augmented labor is most common, I would say that is what is now "normal."

[Storm Bride]

Okay - this may go over like a lead balloon, but c'est la vie.

For me, c-section doesn't equal "birth"...and I feel that way from both sides. My mom never once suggested that I was anything but born. The anniversary of my arrival was always referred to as my birthday. But, I have never, ever in my life felt that I was born. I don't feel that I arrived here the way a human being is supposed to. I've always felt a huge disconnect from people in general, for many reasons, and the way I arrived is and was part of that. I feel unnatural. I feel that my life started off wrongly. It's not rational, it doesn't make sense - but it's real, and it's had a profound effect on my self-image.

Is that a comfortable feeling, as a woman who is also the mother of three c-section babies? Hell, no - it makes me cringe. The idea that my children may grow up feeling this way, because I couldn't stand up to my doctors (okay - not taking that one with ds1, as they ignored my refusal) makes me literally feel sick to my stomach. I know that many, many people arrive here by c-section and don't feel this way, and I hope that my children are part of that group. But, people can call my arrival a birth until they're blue in the face. I wasn't born - I was extracted. My mom (and the rest of the world), can call it a birth all she wants...doesn't change how I feel about it.

(OTOH, both my brother and sister were also c-sections, and I don't think either of them has ever felt this way.)

[nurturedbirth]

I don't think I ever use the terms natural or normal in reference to birth. From a statistical perspective, "normal" is whatever falls within a range around the middle of the bell curve. Colloquially, "normal" is that which is usual and most acceptable, and in birth, in our society, those two definitions seem mutually exclusive to me.

"Natural" I don't like because it's vague, as people define it so differently so others probably wouldn't even know for sure what I'm talking about, and because even in it's most commonly-used form, i.e. without pain medication, I've seen a lot of births without pain meds that I do not feel were anything close to the way Nature (evolution, God for those who are inclined to faith, physiology, what have you) has built our bodies to birth.

Basically I think that both words do a poor job of explaining what the speaker (or writer) actually means, so I avoid using them altogether.