Could you be friends with someone who spanks her children??? - Page 5

[eightyferrettoes]

I agree. I don't think that GDers closing ranks and ostracising spankers really does anything except further a weird divide between philosophical "camps." If you live in a place where physical punishment is common, then a spanking friend will have PLENTY of people to commiserate with about what a judgmental extremist idiot you are.

I say, if GD is really all it's cracked up to be, then the truth will come out in our kids.

I always used to think I could never hang with a mama who circed or would circ... but you know what? I do, and my friends seeing my uncut son with no issues really seems to make them think before they blithely sign the consent form. I don't even have to say anything unless or until they ask.

Wouldn't surprise me to know that people say, "well, 80 and them didn't do it, and their kid seems ok...."

[daniedb]

Since we're going OT...I was spanked a handful of times, I was a very amiable child, very easy to discipline. My sister was the exact opposite, and she received many more spankings than I. My mom now regrets that she ever spanked us, me especially, since she says that there was no need to do so. It's sad to hear her pain about those choices, and she's asked forgiveness so many times. The interesting thing is that apart from one time, the spankings I received were not painful, particularly, and while they weren't fun, they weren't really that bad. In fact, mom stopped spanking us when we both spontaneously cracked up once because she was trying so hard and it just didn't hurt because she's small.

Anyway, what I'm trying to add is the perspective that I totally disagree about people who spank being disturbed. My mother had limited resources, few supportive people in her life, and really did the most GD raising of my sister and I that I can think of when compared to any and all of my peers.

My husband was whacked a few times by his tiny mom with a wooden spoon when they got out of hand (when he and his brother were much older and would start fighting in the house), but he will laugh and roll his eyes about it today. What really caused deep, deep wounds in him wasn't any kind of physical punishment, it was the coldness of his parents and the lack of support and affirmation they withheld from him. I can guarantee you that he would have chosen to be spanked and had a warm relationship instead of not be spanked and have zero positive input from his parents.

There are worse things than spanking, and if I have a friend who is truly emotionally connected to her children and wants to be the best parent she can be, that she spanks her children on occasion when she doesn't know what else to do doesn't make her disturbed, abusive or evil in my eyes.

leelee - your friend sounds like there are many more problems with her parenting and her life than just the spanking. I don't think I'd be much interested in pursuing a friendship with her either.

[TrippyLongstocking]

I wouldnt say i would be friends with them ... I would try as hard as possible not to judge them but...i would probaly judge tehm and then i would probably not be able to hang out with them anymore....

[WuWei]

Here is a poignant thread/poll "Were you spanked as a child". Only 8% of respondents were not. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...hlight=spanked

ETA: I am reminded of this quote.
When we have children we either are woken to our past to help us heal, or we are oblivious to the pain and we inflict it on our children.~Jacqueline Wood


Pat

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by captain optimism

No, I don't think I could be friends with someone like that. I could be friends with someone who spanked in a moment of lost control, but not someone who thought it was the best way to raise children. That would be a deal-breaker for me.

I think it's reasonable to want to be friends with people who are on the same wavelength about important things. There are other things about which I could disagree with a friend and they wouldn't bug me. This is one of the important ones.

:

Also, I'm sure this has been done umpteen million times - and maybe even in this thread - but I think that calculated, purposeful spanking is a fundamental separation from AP. IMO, the two are mutually exclusive.

[Euromom]

I agree with captivatedlife.

I'm sorry this has been said (I don't have time to read this thread in it's entirity) but I have to reply.

Please befriend parents that spank! If I wasn't befriended by people who lived out GD in front of me I don't how I would have ever learned about it. I was raised in a loving home where spanking was believed to be the responsiblity of caring parents. I didn't know anything different. I think we have to consider culture in this discussion. And in order to bring cultural change people have to be made aware that there is a better way to parent. This paradigm change can't just come through rallies, workshops, or even books on a shelf. Gentle Discipline has to be acted out in front of people in their homes and playgrounds. That is how I learned and changed.
This being said, protecting your children from angry abussive people is of course the priorty. But there are genuinely loving parents who are doing what they think and there culture tells them is best. Please don't isolate them, instead tell them what you've learned and show them how it is practiced.

[Dal]

I love Euromom's post.

I was spanked only once that I remember. I remember it being a textbook spanking... my dad did everything he was "supposed" to do. I have NO idea what it was for... I remember rolling my eyes (in my head) at his little "this hurts me more than it hurts you" speech... seeing right through it, knowing that what he was doing was NOT necessary and NOT going to help me learn whatever it was he was trying to teach me. I remember losing respect for him. I remember feeling humiliated and that there was something disgusting and sexual feeling about the spanking (and I don't mean to imply that it was anything other than a textbook spanking... my dad has is absolutely not a pedophile so far as I'm aware!!!). I remember my friends and I would later play "mad mother" and fight over which child got to be spanked (the coveted role). I don't remember the spanking being painful... my main memories of it are of intense humiliation. I still feel humiliated thinking about it and can't imagine ever talking with my father about it. Our relationship is congenial but distant.

[AnnesMoM]

Originally Posted by the_lissa

If someone lost their temper and spanked on a rare occasion, I could deal with it even if I don't agree, but I coul;dn't deal withs omeone who thinks spanking is a.ok and does it regularly.

This is faulty logic. One should NEVER spank when they lose their temper. I would have a much bigger problem with someone who spanked their kids out of anger every now and then, because that emotion can boil over into a real beating. Someone who spanks more regularly, under control, in a carefully measured manner, accompanied by instruction is FAR less bothersome than the one who does it out of a lack of self-control.

[kkeris]

Yes, I have friends who are hitters (spanking, tapping, swatting, or watever they call it).

Because:
- These friends of mine are not perfect and I dont expect them to be.
- These are moms who otherwise loves their kids dearly and will do so much for them, they truly care from their hearts.
- They just didnt have enough tools in their toolbox
- They had never even heard of the term 'gentle discipline' until I shared my beliefs.
- If I had judged them harshly and solely based on on this weakness of theirs, I'd never had the chance to be heard about my beliefs
- People dont care how much you know until they know that you care.

I get alot of respect from my friends about my beliefs on discipline, and I believe that it has something to do with me respecting them as a person in return (I still do not think that hitting is acceptable EVER, but I can respect that its their choice). Coincidentally (or not?), all my friends who are hitters dont really hit on a regular/consistent basis. So its not like they swear by hitting and do it religiously. I'm not sure I can stomach this enough to be friends with a person who does that. And all my friends know that I am a GDer and how strongly I feel about respecting children. Can you believe that even the most mainstream friends I have (trust me, they are VERY mainstream ) hesitate to use words like 'naughty' around me. And because they know how sensitive I am to children being hit, I have yet to witness any of them doing in in front of me (thank goodness, my heart is too weak for that).

When it comes to discussions regarding dicipline, I share my views as gently as possible when asked and I do not comment harshly nor disrrespectfully about their beliefs when they share. We get along fine since we also have plenty of other stuff to talk about so not all our conversations are about discipline.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by AnnesMoM

This is faulty logic. One should NEVER spank when they lose their temper. I would have a much bigger problem with someone who spanked their kids out of anger every now and then, because that emotion can boil over into a real beating. Someone who spanks more regularly, under control, in a carefully measured manner, accompanied by instruction is FAR less bothersome than the one who does it out of a lack of self-control.

'

I completely disagree. Boiling over and losing control is human and the knee-jerk reaction to hit is engrained in many people because of their own childhood experiences. That's not to say it's any excuse and I, as a person who expressed a similar sentiment to the one to which you responded, could never remain close with a person who used it as such. It is, however, completely understandable given the pressures that parents face and the crazy emotions that we can have because of our relationships with our children. I have a huge amount of compassion for people who lose control once and smack their children and then beat themselves up about it and swear they'll never do it again (as I did once... the most hideous thing ever and a huge lesson learned).

People who spank in a calculated way, IMO, have a much more serious character flaw. For starters, it's the sign of a person who believes that physical force is a legitimate means to control and correct, who views his/her child as his/her property, to be done with as he/she pleases. It's an indication of a basic lack of respect for children as individual human beings and a lack of respect for their bodies and boundaries. Furthermore, the ritualization of explaining the reason for the spanking, hitting the child, then expressing love sends so many horrible messages: "You deserve to be hit. You've done something wrong, so it is perfectly okay for me to hit you. I'm choosing to hit you because I love you." It's warped on so many levels and, quite honestly, people who operate that way really scare me.

[Dragonfly]

Originally Posted by kkeris

I get alot of respect from my friends about my beliefs on discipline, and I believe that it has something to do with me respecting them as a person in return (I still do not think that hitting is acceptable EVER, but I can respect that its their choice).

I appreciate you sharing your opinion. I have to say, though, that I just don't get this. Would you also respect them as a person and feel it was their choice if the people they were hitting were their wives or husbands? Or elderly parents?

[green betty]

I have an extremely attached 2.5 year old dc. We come as a set. So I tend to think more in terms of our family being in the relationship than as *me* having a friend. If the dynamic doesn't work for Charlie then... well, it doesn't work!

Dc finds harsh or loud voices very scary, so we don't hang around people who use them to speak to their kids. I think he would find spanking terrifying, so it's a non-starter. I would have concerns about him spending much time with kids who get spanked, as well. We already get plenty of playground encounters with kids who have learned intimidation and violence as problem-solving skills.

It also depends on what you mean by "friend". To me, friend friends rely on each other for connection and nourish each other emotionally. I doubt I would have a relationship like that with a systematic or frequent spanker, although I might with someone who gave occasional and regretted swats. It would really depend on the people and our dynamic.

I live in a small, conservative community and am very conscious of modelling gd for others ALL the time--we have tons of chatty acquaintances who I wouldn't consider friend friends, and lots of them CIO and spank. I'm very aware of people intently watching the things dc and I do and I'm glad for the opportunity. I just wish WE had some models on the other side of us! (As much as I love MDC and all y'all, I'm so tired of getting support and community through the internet. A bunch of you please move here so dc can play with your kids.)

I think spanking only hurts and is never a good idea. I also think it does harm to judge people for engaging in practices that are taught, practiced, validated, and embedded in their culture. Context matters buckets.

What's more, I believe that judgment blocks the flow of learning all the way around--for the judger, the judgee, and all the kids who are watching. Parenting is a constant journey of self. Here's another damn hill.

[the_lissa]

Originally Posted by AnnesMoM

This is faulty logic. One should NEVER spank when they lose their temper. I would have a much bigger problem with someone who spanked their kids out of anger every now and then, because that emotion can boil over into a real beating. Someone who spanks more regularly, under control, in a carefully measured manner, accompanied by instruction is FAR less bothersome than the one who does it out of a lack of self-control.

It isn't faulty logic. It is an opinion. What is less bothersome for you is more bothersome for me. For me, I believe people make mistakes. They can feel bad and try to do better. People who spank because they believe is the right thing have a completely different philosophy that does not mesh with mine. I also feel that people who lose their temper and spank on rare occasions can benefit from friendships and support.

[sagira]

I agree that by showing our friends that there is another way and modeling, we can make a difference more than avoiding people. Many people just don't know any better or cling to the old religious ways so strongly and really believe that is the best for their child.

Personally I'm also creeped out by people who deliberately, almost mechanically, spank their children. I think there's something really odious lurking in that somewhere.. it makes my skin crawl. That's what my dh's relative was talking about when I had to stop her.

My mom, who spanked out of anger, is human and even as a child, I knew she just didn't have control over her emotions. And that's the way humans are. We lose control and have a tendency to hit. Being compassionate also means being compassionate with adults, not just children. We can't change other people, but we can model and hope they see something they like about our parenting.

I don't plan to hit, it's definitely absent in my toolbox, but I'm always afraid I will someday and sometimes have fantasies that I never act out. I learned that in Raising Children, Raising Ourselves (a very GD book BTW). That you can allow yourself the fantasy and get over it and do the right thing (treat your child respectfully and remember how much you love him).

[rzberrymom]

Originally Posted by sagira

I agree that by showing our friends that there is another way and modeling, we can make a difference more than avoiding people. Many people just don't know any better or cling to the old religious ways so strongly and really believe that is the best for their child.

I tried to do this with a friend who spanked her baby. I was really hoping my gentle discipline would rub off on her. Instead, my DD started hitting everyone and everything after spending time with them. It was just too much for me--I fully value helping people find more gentle ways, but I also felt like it was unfair to expose my DD to violence.

[sagira]

Ouch. I'm sorry to hear that Definitely I wouldn't tolerate the parent spanking in front of me. If they do it, even in their own house, it would have to be out of our range because ds and I are NOT watching that.