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Not tightening straps for infant carseat - Page 6

post #101 of 123
Say you are a passenger, your partner/friend is driving. You are on a highway with no sholder. No place to pull over. Your infant has been screaming hysterically, strapped in her car seat, has vomited from crying, and begins to choke on her own vomit. Do you remove her from the car seat?
Just curious.

Also, I find the dismissive attitude of some really too bad. Some of us don't have "pissed off kids who don't like the car seat" We have kids who ARE TRAUMATIZED by the car seat! Believe it or not it's true.

btw, I walked two miles today because my daughter refused to get back in the car. I don't blame her. Thankfully my husband was there to drive brother home while I carried 3yo daughter for 2 miles. Normally that isn't an option for us.

nak
post #102 of 123
Okay - here's a potential solution to the chest clip issue - could you buy one or two more clips and put them both on, then your DC couldn't slide the clip down as far.
http://www.toysrus.com/product/index...entPage=family


I don't know if that would help.

That sounds like no fun. Hopefully the switch to a booster seat will solve your carseat issues.
post #103 of 123
Quote:
We have kids who ARE TRAUMATIZED by the car seat!
I doubt it. And either way, better traumatized than dead.
post #104 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzharmony View Post
Say you are a passenger, your partner/friend is driving. You are on a highway with no sholder. No place to pull over. Your infant has been screaming hysterically, strapped in her car seat, has vomited from crying, and begins to choke on her own vomit. Do you remove her from the car seat?
Just curious.

Also, I find the dismissive attitude of some really too bad. Some of us don't have "pissed off kids who don't like the car seat" We have kids who ARE TRAUMATIZED by the car seat! Believe it or not it's true.

btw, I walked two miles today because my daughter refused to get back in the car. I don't blame her. Thankfully my husband was there to drive brother home while I carried 3yo daughter for 2 miles. Normally that isn't an option for us.

nak

You can think me dismissive if you want to. But, there is no way I would allow my child to be out of the car seat, generally. The choking incident would be an exception only if there was NOWHERE else to pull over.

If you want to carry a 3 yr old for two miles, please be my guest. In our house, the carseat/car/seatbelt is non-negotiable. Mama ain't walking two miles in this Florida heat.

I only hope that it wasn't too unpleasant outside.

I feel some are being dismissive of what some of us have been through. I don't tell people that the carseat should be a non-negotiable thing for the hell of it. I do not want you or anyone else on this board or anywhere else to EVER go through what my family did and continues to go through to this day. It makes me relive our experience every time I see a parent with a small baby or child in their lap.
post #105 of 123
Who here is saying it's negotiable? Unfortunately, it isn't.

What is being said is that sweeping generalizations and nasty judgmental behaviors aren't useful in the quest to promote car seat safety.
post #106 of 123
I don't understand the implication that an unlikely, but terrible outcome, is being actively chosen when you see someone make a choice that for a minority of individuals leads to the worst happening. If I used that approach, I could justify intolerance towards almost any conversation.

And again, I am not saying we shouldn't use carseats. I used them. They are the law. I would not be willing to drive around with a child loose in the car. When ds was a baby we had a serious car accident. I don't know if the carseat saved him, but I am certainly glad he was strapped into one. But the issue is, simply, more complicated than pointing to extremes and ignoring everything in between.

There are a small percentage of babies who die in carseats for non crash reasons. Babies die of SIDS while riding in carseats. Preemies, and babies with special needs, can suffer respiratory distress from the "hunched" position. They make flat "car beds" but those don't address the underlying issue that there may be risks with letting a new baby spend extended periods of time isolated while sleeping.

I will never forget hearing of another "heart baby", who died from literally crying to death while riding in his carseat. The stress of the ride and being strapped in led to a bout of prolonged crying, which sent him into cardiac distress...and he died. Right there in the carseat.

Life is strange and sometimes senseless and it doesn't help to go around assigning such profoundly negative intent to the choices others are making. Nobody is choosing to harm their child with the carseat issue--it's unfair to imply that anyone would rather lose their child than hear them cry.

It's very awkward typing this reply, because some of the very personal stories of loss shared in this thread are deeply painful, and I think everyone wants to be respectful, while clarifying that some of the implications here are simply not true.
I completely understand why some feel strongly about this issue--but it just doesn't help to take posts to the level of assigning negative intent and refusing to hear the other person.
post #107 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzharmony View Post
Who here is saying it's negotiable? Unfortunately, it isn't.

What is being said is that sweeping generalizations and nasty judgmental behaviors aren't useful in the quest to promote car seat safety.

Who is being nasty?

Obviously, if a person is willing to walk two miles, carrying a 3 yr old, because he/she refuses to get into the car, then yes, it is negotiable. The child gets to decide whether she and Mama get to ride home or walk two miles.

I cannot imagine having a child who is that traumatized by a car seat. I hope you can find help for her or she outgrows it. I am not being snarky. I am quite serious.

If this works for you, well...more power to you. I am not going to do it. Considering where I live there are not a lot of safe places to walk and the heat is horrible. I am not doing it.

You are not the only who feels judged, believe me.

I am finished with this thread. I cannot continue to be told I am nasty or making sweeping judgements, only because I don't wish ANOTHER child to be brain damaged.

Good luck to you and everyone else on this thread. I hope that you all come to a decision about child safety that you can live with and I wish only good things for your children.
post #108 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinkerBelle View Post
Who is being nasty?

Obviously, if a person is willing to walk two miles, carrying a 3 yr old, because he/she refuses to get into the car, then yes, it is negotiable. The child gets to decide whether she and Mama get to ride home or walk two miles.

I cannot imagine having a child who is that traumatized by a car seat. I hope you can find help for her or she outgrows it. I am not being snarky. I am quite serious.

If this works for you, well...more power to you. I am not going to do it. Considering where I live there are not a lot of safe places to walk and the heat is horrible. I am not doing it.

You are not the only who feels judged, believe me.

I am finished with this thread. I cannot continue to be told I am nasty or making sweeping judgements, only because I don't wish ANOTHER child to be brain damaged.

Good luck to you and everyone else on this thread. I hope that you all come to a decision about child safety that you can live with and I wish only good things for your children.
I wasn't pointing to you but feel free to bow out/ I feel the same. I do find on MDC a lot of generalizing and harshness when it comes to car seat issues. Whether it be bringing a car seat on a plane, using certain brands of car seats, riding rear facing v ffacing past 1 or 2 or 3. It seems to be a polarizing issue here, of all places. Can't quite figure it out. I do see a lot of dismissive posting on this thread

As we have all agreed, car seats are required by law, and safer than riding unrestrained. Nobody is debating that (I don't think) but I for one have questioned the damage my children have suffered from distress due to car seat confinement. It is real. Does it compare to brain damage or death? As I have said so many times before, of course not. Is it painful for my children and myself? Yes. Is there real suffering? Yes. That is what some can't or won't understand.

As has been pointed out upthread, before coming here for a 300 post thread about calling the cops on the lady in the next car with a baby out of the seat, stop and think. There actually could be a legitimate reason. It is NOT black and white.

On walking the 2 miles. It wasn't about whether it is negotiable to ride in a car seat. Riding in the car without a car seat is non negotiable in our family. IF I can avoid the suffering my child endures while riding in the car, I will. Clearly today I was willing and able to hike long distance. She has been the same since birth - she is not a manipulator. She is traumatized by the confinement. I recently tried a nausea remedy which hasn't worked but I have wondered if that was part of the problem for her as well. I may never know but I will continue, as her mother, to have compassion for her and do my best to protect her. Physically and emotionally.
post #109 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzharmony View Post
Say you are a passenger, your partner/friend is driving. You are on a highway with no sholder. No place to pull over. Your infant has been screaming hysterically, strapped in her car seat, has vomited from crying, and begins to choke on her own vomit. Do you remove her from the car seat?
Just curious.

Also, I find the dismissive attitude of some really too bad. Some of us don't have "pissed off kids who don't like the car seat" We have kids who ARE TRAUMATIZED by the car seat! Believe it or not it's true.

btw, I walked two miles today because my daughter refused to get back in the car. I don't blame her. Thankfully my husband was there to drive brother home while I carried 3yo daughter for 2 miles. Normally that isn't an option for us.

nak
There is a difference between a baby choking on their own vomit (which would be immediately life threatening and must be dealt with right there, on the spot, in order to save the child's LIFE) and a child who is 'traumatized' by the car seat. If you do not or cannot see the difference in the two, I'm not sure what to tell you.

Would I take my child out if they were choking on their own vomit? You betcha. The two instances where a child of mine has ridden without a car seat were what I believed at the time to be potentially life threatening situations. Getting them to the hospital (on post, 3/4 of a mile down the hill) was more important in those moments than strapping them in.

If you personally believe your child is in imminent danger of death due to being traumatized in their car seat and there is nowhere to pull over, by all means, take them out of their car seat and do what you must. I am sure there are exceptions, like the baby with a cardiac condition where prolonged crying while strapped in a car seat truly IS life threatening.

I would never dream of suggesting that a parent put their child at IMMEDIATE RISK of death by leaving them in their car seat if taking them out and/or not strapping them in would literally save their life.
post #110 of 123
Car seats seem to be the current en vogue issue where it's OK to be as intolerant, judgmental, nasty or black and white as you want to be.

There are gray areas to almost any issue... but I think it makes people feel better to not recognize them and to think that the world can fit into a smaller, more defined definition.

I spent $280 on a 5-point harness for my 3yo. That's what safety was worth to me. However, if I had had a baby who was screaming bloody murder EVERY SINGLE TIME we went anywhere (and we did go through a thankfully brief period with this) I would be willing to make some concessions to keep him from that anguish. Certainly including walking 2 miles and probably other things as well. It's hard to tell without actually being in the situation.

Does that make me a bad mama? No. I'm a good mom. It doesn't make other people bad mamas either. It's just all part of life, and weight risks, factors, benefits, etc.
post #111 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Sweeties1Angel View Post
I doubt it. And either way, better traumatized than dead.

but its not either/or. It's traumitized or take a calculated risk.

I mean, there is a guarantee that a child would be traumatized and there is only a chance that she may die. Dop you see the difference.

And I applaud StormBride's posts. Its how I;ve felt but never been able to eloquently post before.
post #112 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tani View Post
I really have the strongest urge to take you by the shoulders and shake you, HARD.

I cannot even begin to imagine how you would think that losing your child -- even though it's a "small" risk -- is somehow less traumatic than periodically pissing them off by putting them in a car seat.

I certainly hope you never find out whether that's true or not.

It isn't, by the way. Risking a child's life is NOT worth it.

At least you do use a seat, which is better than way too many other parents out there.
Do you drive? Ever? Anywhere? If so, don't tell me about "risking a child's life not being worth it". Every single one of us who puts our child in an automobile ever is risking that child's life, whether or not they're strapped tightly into a carseat or not. I'm comfortable with a higher level of risk with respect to the carseat aspect of it than many moms are. I'm also comfortable with a much lower level of risk with respect to how much I drive with dd.

And, I can't imagine what planet you're living on that you think I'd find losing my child to be less traumatic than putting her in a carseat. It's not a matter of whether losing her would be worse...that falls strongly into the "well, duh" category. I'm well aware that if I have her out of her seat or she has the clip down and I'm in an accident, it will haunt me for the rest of my life. I'm also aware that listening to her scream and cry and beg not to be put in the seat for two years will haunt me for life. Since I never was in accident, the bottom line is...I did that to her for nothing. If I'd been in an accident, the seat would have probably made a positive difference...but since I wasn't, it made only a negative difference.

Basically, by putting her in a car seat, I'm saying that I think all her trauma over it is worth it, even if we're never in an accident at all. I don't think so. By abiding by the law, I'm pretty much saying the best outcome for dd is an accident...because then her suffering actually serves a purpose.

Go ahead and "shake me hard". Every time I take dd out, I do something to her that I think is bad for her, that feels abusive to me, that damages our relationship...and I do it because the "experts" have decided it's best. I don't agree - and it's not about stats re: kids who are in accidents. It's about personal risk assessment.

Funny...if I were tormenting my child by making her cry herself to sleep every night, because someone told me it as for the best, you'd all jump all over me...but hen I torment her with the car seat, somehow all bets are off.
post #113 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Sweeties1Angel View Post
I doubt it. And either way, better traumatized than dead.
Doubt it all you want. DD has gone hell.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wifeandmom View Post
There is a difference between a baby choking on their own vomit (which would be immediately life threatening and must be dealt with right there, on the spot, in order to save the child's LIFE) and a child who is 'traumatized' by the car seat. If you do not or cannot see the difference in the two, I'm not sure what to tell you.
Why is the word "traumatized" in quotes? If your kids don't go through hell in them, that's great for you and your kids. DS1 and ds2 don't mind them, either. DD has gone through absolute hell, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vbactivist View Post
but its not either/or. It's traumitized or take a calculated risk.

I mean, there is a guarantee that a child would be traumatized and there is only a chance that she may die. Dop you see the difference.
Thank you. I haven't been able to phrase it quite this succinctly.
post #114 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinkerBelle View Post
I feel some are being dismissive of what some of us have been through. I don't tell people that the carseat should be a non-negotiable thing for the hell of it. I do not want you or anyone else on this board or anywhere else to EVER go through what my family did and continues to go through to this day.
Yes. That.

But for those of you who feel that your child's LIFE is worth less than their dislike of the car seat, I have nothing but contempt. And some pity, for your blindness and ignorance.

I can't discuss this rationally.
post #115 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tani View Post

But for those of you who feel that your child's LIFE is worth less than their dislike of the car seat, I have nothing but contempt.
But there is no guarantee that if you don't put your child in a car seat, she will die. It is not a perfect cause and effect. There is a risk, if you are in an accident, and your child is not in a car seat, she may die. But there is a guarantee that if you are NOT in an accident, and your child hates the carseat, they are forced to CIO. I feel the choice has been for me, in the past, ABSOLUTE emotional harm vs. POSSIBLE physical harm.
post #116 of 123
The use of the word 'traumatized' in reference to being in a carseat makes me want to do things I can't print here.

I can only hope you'll never have reason to know the true definition of traumatized.


I'll give you a hint. A kid mad about being in a carseat is NOT it. Get over it.
post #117 of 123
I want to thank this thread. I really, really do. It has opened my eyes.

You know, I don't vax my kids. I am an intelligent, loving mother who carefully researched both sides before making that decision for my own kids. And you know what? I get really sick and tired of govenments legislating that I HAVE to vax my kids. It's not fair or right, IMO. Thankfully I can get exemptions.

I also carefully researched child restraints before putting my children in them. After doing the research, I decided that using child restraints was the best option for my family. And I am blessed that, most days, my kids agree with me.

But, yeah, I can see how some people would disagree and get pissed off about laws forcing them to abuse and traumatize their kids. Do you think there's any hope of legal exemptions to car seat laws in the future? You know, all you have to do is sign the paperwork showing that you know all about the risks and this is the decision you've chosen to make for your child? That would solve the issue of people using car seats incorrectly because they don't know proper usage. Every doctor, nurse, midwife, pediatrician, etc. will give new parents a car seat primer, and at the end of the lesson, the parents will have the option of signing a child seat waiver. They'd just have to carrry a copy in their car and they'd be good to go!

Seriously, it could work. I'm not going to start lobbying, since I've chosen to use child restraints, but this is an idea that could take off in North America... at the very least make the news channel...
post #118 of 123
Well, this thread has, predictably, gone further and further downhill and perfectly illustrates why people at mdc are afraid to post anything the slightest bit negative, about car seats.
At this point it will hopefully be deleted.

:
post #119 of 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThreeBeans View Post
The use of the word 'traumatized' in reference to being in a carseat makes me want to do things I can't print here.

I can only hope you'll never have reason to know the true definition of traumatized.


I'll give you a hint. A kid mad about being in a carseat is NOT it. Get over it.
You don't think a child could be traumatized by being in a car seat, the same way that a child who's afraid of water could be traumatized by being forced to be in the water? I'm sure it does not compare to the loss of a child. But the fact is that the risk someone is taking by having their child out of the car seat in certain circumstances, for a few minutes, if they are very safe otherwise about the car is really not taking on a whole lot of risk. The big risk is in driving at all.
post #120 of 123
Goodness!

All I wanted to say when I noticed this thread was that I didn't understand exactly how tight infants needed to be in their seats when I had my first.... and I think I'm glad no one ever made me feel small by telling me exactly what I needed to do. That said, over the last two years I've learned a lot more, upgraded my car seats and now I DO know why and how it should be done.

So when I see a new mom with her baby I might, in circumstances where I feel it's okay, let her know how pretty her baby is and say 'oh look, you really want to just tighten baby in a little more, and make sure that this clip is up here so baby will stay restrained in a crash.' That's it.

I have very crunchy friends who do their carseats very incorrectly, but get a little preachy about the non-vaxing, natural foods/living stuff- and I've determined that I don't really like being preached at. So I don't do it to them!! Sorta does drive me nuts, though. If a person is passionately protecting their children from other 'dangers,' wouldn't you figure out how to use a car seat correctly?!!

But I believe in the golden rule and I also think we should get to make our own choices when it comes to parenting. One persons danger is another persons comfort- like co-sleeping.... some see it as a danger, others find it comfortable. Or perhaps like when my daughter slept in her car seat (she LOVED sleeping in the car as a baby) and other family members found what I was doing dangerous. Btw, she was in the driveway on a mild day.

I also appreciate the responses in this thread that were kind, and I appreciate the MDC mamas who were willing to stick their neck out and say that they don't like carseats. There are always two sides to a story.

AND- I didn't know that about the chest clips and the pre-crash positioning!! What a great piece of information- thank you! My dd has discovered that she can pull her chest clip down with the little supports on her Marathon. It's annoying because she is one of those stubborn kids; and I'm not willing to do a lot of scare tactic tricks with her. Although I did threaten to leave her by the side of the road...: And I have left her at home for not wearing her carseat properly.

In peace, Megan
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