I don't know what to do (can't soak grains/legumes)

[caedmyn]

I'll try to explain this as briefly as possible...DD and I are sensitive to a naturally occurring food chemical called amines, which are found in things like aged meats, fermented foods, bananas, tomatoes, avocados...among other things. All cooked foods tend to build up amines as they age (ie leftovers), and foods with protein in them are particularly prone to accumulate amines.

In practical terms, what this means is that we (DD seems to be more sensitive than I but since I'm nursing, I'm stuck, too) have to buy meat right after it's slaughtered and can't keep very much on hand, can't eat fermented foods or beverages, have to freeze leftovers...you get the idea. I just recently tried a trial of beans where I soaked the beans for 8 hours, boiling the water and changing it a couple of times during the soaking period. But it looks like DD is reacting to the extra amines, so I don't think I'm going to be able to soak any of my legumes or grains. I am really getting stressed about this--I want/need to include grains and legumes in our diet, but I don't want to use unsoaked ones, and I don't want to use nothing but white rice, either. I suppose I could just eat low carb forever but it's expensive, boring, and impractical if I ever want to travel or eat at anyone else's home. We can't do nuts, coconut, eggs, or dairy due to DD's food intolerances so our options are pretty limited.

Should I just eat unsoaked grains and legumes and hope they don't make me sick (I also have digestive problems)? Should I resign myself to eating white rice? I don't know what to do.

[covertlycrunchy]

Wow. That's rough. Have you tried commercially available pre cooked frozen beans/legumes? I have NO IDEA if they soak or not or what they do to them in general, but since frozen food is often frozen as soon as possible perhaps it won't contain the high amount of amines? Maybe another mama is more savy than myself on this.

And as I understand it, the soaking is to remove/break down the phytates & help to cook the beans in a shorter amount of time. So, would adding some ground wheat (has lots of phytase, and you could wash the beans well to get rid of the wheat if needed) to the beans help to break down the phytates more quickly to allow you to reduce the soak time?

HTH! Good Luck!

[saratc]

Have you tried sprouted grains? Sprouting does reduce phytates so you shouldn't have to soak. For grains that you don't want to eat sprouted and can't soak, I would stick with heirloom grains and make sure they are very fresh and just cook and eat unsoaked.

Soaking is more important in the modern diet since the level of nutrients in the soil aren't very high and people tend to eat flour that has been preground weeks/months in advance. Since nutrients deteriorate quickly after grinding, consuming grains immediately after grinding should keep nutrient levels high. I know some people who do NT in every other facet, but do not soak their grains, but only consume very fresh, heirloom strains of grains, and flours that are ground fresh. Since the levels of nutrients in them are very high, even if the phytate levels aren't reduced, enough nutrients are still biologically available for absorption.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by saratc

Have you tried sprouted grains? Sprouting does reduce phytates so you shouldn't have to soak. For grains that you don't want to eat sprouted and can't soak, I would stick with heirloom grains and make sure they are very fresh and just cook and eat unsoaked.

Soaking is more important in the modern diet since the level of nutrients in the soil aren't very high and people tend to eat flour that has been preground weeks/months in advance. Since nutrients deteriorate quickly after grinding, consuming grains immediately after grinding should keep nutrient levels high. I know some people who do NT in every other facet, but do not soak their grains, but only consume very fresh, heirloom strains of grains, and flours that are ground fresh. Since the levels of nutrients in them are very high, even if the phytate levels aren't reduced, enough nutrients are still biologically available for absorption.

What are considered heirloom grains? I wouldn't mind doing freshly ground flour (sure would be easier ) but I'm afraid it's going to totally ruin my digestion if I start eating a bunch of unsoaked whole grains.

I don't have any idea how amine levels compare in sprouted vs. soaked, but since you have to soak things first to sprout them...I can't imagine it's a big improvement. Plus sprouted things also have another food chemical that we're (or at least DD is) sensitive to, salicylates, so even if they are lower in amines it's a case of 6 of one, half a dozen of another.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by covertlycrunchy

Wow. That's rough. Have you tried commercially available pre cooked frozen beans/legumes? I have NO IDEA if they soak or not or what they do to them in general, but since frozen food is often frozen as soon as possible perhaps it won't contain the high amount of amines? Maybe another mama is more savy than myself on this.

And as I understand it, the soaking is to remove/break down the phytates & help to cook the beans in a shorter amount of time. So, would adding some ground wheat (has lots of phytase, and you could wash the beans well to get rid of the wheat if needed) to the beans help to break down the phytates more quickly to allow you to reduce the soak time?

HTH! Good Luck!

I could just cook beans w/o soaking in a pressure cooker to pretty much eliminate amines but I'm concerned with both the nutrient value and digestibility of doing that.

I think there would only be value in adding ground wheat to something if it's (the something) low in phytase, and I'm not sure beans are low in phytase. I wouldn't feel comfortable using wheat, anyway, even with a good rinse as DD is intolerant to wheat.

[ChristieB]

nak

I don't really have any ideas for you myself, but there are two yahoo groups you might want to check out (if you don't already know about them). The first in particular may be able to help with this question.

FailsafeNT
GFCFNN

Good luck. What you're doing is tricky!

Christie

[kallyn]

Honestly, I would just try to eliminate them. Eat what makes you healthy at home. If you need to travel or eat at someone's house, one meal probably won't hurt you too bad. I eat LC at home and mostly just eat what I want on the rare occasions that I'm not home...this works well because then I don't stress out about "is it LC?" and I also don't feel deprived and like I can never have another bite of bread again in my life.

Have you seen this blog? It might be helpful to you. The author has amine, salicylate, and food additive intolerances. http://wisewitch.blogspot.com/ She also has a purely informational page which is here: http://www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.info/

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by kallyn

Honestly, I would just try to eliminate them. Eat what makes you healthy at home. If you need to travel or eat at someone's house, one meal probably won't hurt you too bad. I eat LC at home and mostly just eat what I want on the rare occasions that I'm not home...this works well because then I don't stress out about "is it LC?" and I also don't feel deprived and like I can never have another bite of bread again in my life.

Have you seen this blog? It might be helpful to you. The author has amine, salicylate, and food additive intolerances. http://wisewitch.blogspot.com/ She also has a purely informational page which is here: http://www.plantpoisonsandrottenstuff.info/

I have seen the blog and website, thanks.

The problem is that eating LC DOESN'T work. I'm hungry quite a bit and it's very, very boring--it's a bit difficult to eat LC when all the veggies you can use are celery, leeks, garlic, chayote squash, cabbage, and brussel sprouts. There's only so many combinations you can make with those + meat and ghee. Plus it's getting more and more difficult to feed DD as she doesn't like most of the veggies, often won't eat meat, and won't eat ghee any more unless it's mixed into something. I have been feeding her potatoes, but I need to be able to give her grains, something I can make ahead of time and just give her when she's hungry...which goes back to the dilemma between just using unsoaked grains, or...can I just say I hate amines?

[kallyn]

Are you avoiding nuts, eggs, or cheese for any reasons? If not, those could be some good options. Sorry if this advice is less than helpful, I'm not terribly well-versed in Failsafe kind of stuff.

[mumkimum]

Just wanted to do some brainstorming for you of grain/legumes that would not need soaking. Maybe there'll be some new ideas that might work out for you?

grains: millet, buckwheat, barley, quinoa

legumes: lentils, split peas & dal, fresh/frozen black eye peas, fresh/frozen soybeans, fresh fava beans

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by kallyn

Are you avoiding nuts, eggs, or cheese for any reasons? If not, those could be some good options. Sorry if this advice is less than helpful, I'm not terribly well-versed in Failsafe kind of stuff.

DD's intolerant to all of those...that's one of the reasons this is so difficult! Nuts actually aren't Failsafe but it doesn't matter since she's intolerant to them anyway.

[ChristieB]

Oh my goodness, I sooo feel for you! Ds1 has a very limited diet, too, but what you're doing makes it look like he doesn't have to avoid much at all.

I think the buckwheat is a good idea. It's not actually a grain, but a fruit. And I've read that it's low in phytates. It seems a pretty safe one to skip the soaking. And I believe quinoa falls into the same category. Quinoa flour makes nice waffles, btw (crispy). It's been a loooong time since I made them, but I do remember that much.

I don't know if this helps at all, but what has really helped with ds is to rotate his foods. Right now we're only rotating his fruits (that's what he has the most trouble with, besides, with veggies, he's only eating nightshades and brassicas, hard to rotate). He kept losing foods, and we were worried that all he would be eating for carb was pears. With the rotation, we've been able to add some foods back in, slowly, cautiously. He's now eating buckwheat every 4 days. He's so excited about that! And the foods he was eating even before rotating are better tolerated now. Oh, and something else we've noticed is that some foods he can't eat together. But with other foods, they're fine. For example, he can pineapple on his apple day, but not on his tangerine day. Just to add to the craziness of it all. :

I really hope you get this all figured out!

Christie

[bluets]

i second the buckwheat and quinoa. i find quinoa to be more digestible - my system has to work with buckwheat, especially soba noodles.

just be sure to rinse the quinoa. i also lightly toast both of them (to dry them out from rinsing) before i start cooking them in the pot of broth/water.

millet is also fairly easy to digest without soaking.

the problem with phytates is that they reduce the amount of minerals one can absorb. so, to offset that, you'll want to really boost the minerals that are available. i'd make a bone broth and toss in some sea veggies (yes, those again - my new best friends, just be careful with kelp) then use that broth to cook the un-grain.

[kallyn]

I've seen people mention buckwheat and quinoa and millet. An interesting fact about these "grains" is that they are actually biologically not grains at all - they are considered fruits or seeds. I think amaranth is a member of this group as well. I don't know if they need to be soaked or not, but the idea that they are not actually grains seems encouraging.

Oh I also wanted to add that if you're definitely looking for a carb source, maybe roots and tubers might work?

[terrordactyl]

have you tried a crock pot to cook things in

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by Shaina

have you tried a crock pot to cook things in

No...crockpots aren't really a good idea for us because the longer things cook (particularly meats and beans) the more amines they tend to build up.

[caedmyn]

Originally Posted by kallyn

I've seen people mention buckwheat and quinoa and millet. An interesting fact about these "grains" is that they are actually biologically not grains at all - they are considered fruits or seeds. I think amaranth is a member of this group as well. I don't know if they need to be soaked or not, but the idea that they are not actually grains seems encouraging.

Oh I also wanted to add that if you're definitely looking for a carb source, maybe roots and tubers might work?

According to NT they still need to be soaked I have been eating a fair amount of potatoes and rutabagas, but I have to be careful with potatoes as they cause blood sugar issues at times. I definitely can't eat them with breakfast or I get shaky a couple of hours later. DD LOVES them but they don't really work too well as a quick snack, especially when we're on the go.

I've decided to experiment with quinoa, and soaking it for 4 hours...we'll see how it goes. I think if I eat less meat I might be able to get away with the extra amines from soaking small amounts of beans and grains if I don't soak them too long. I hope!

[ChristieB]

OK, this thread had me wondering, so I looked this up here. Millet is a grain, but buckwheat, quinoa, and amaranth are non-grains (not in the grass family). I'm not sure what that means for phytate content, since that wasn't mentioned in the article. But it does mention that quinoa and amaranth are high in oxalates. Don't know if that is of concern to you or not (hope not, for your sake!).

I'm wondering if the "soak" that is done in the pressure cooker would help at all with phytates or with digestion. My pressure cooker cookbook gives instructions for doing that with beans. It's just a minute under high pressure, then you rinse and cook. I think that would improve the digestibility, but I don't know if it would be enough for you. It might be worth trying, though. And I really don't know if it would reduce phytates at all. If it did, you could try it with grains, too. I don't know where to find that kind of information, either. Maybe ask on the FailsafeNT group? I see that there are some pretty experienced folks on that group. Anyway, just a thought.

Also, in terms of your digestion, would taking enzymes with these foods help?

To make potatoes more portable, try making oven fries out of them. My son loves them, even cold. Just cut them in fry shape/size (I make them fatter than deep-fried fries), coat with a fat (ghee would be fine, just melt it and pour over the potatoes), salt, and bake (it's been a long time, but it seems to me that I baked them at 400 or 450, but I'm not sure ). You can add other spices, too, if you want. Can you/she eat sweet potatoes? If so, they can be prepared the same way.

Christie

[Gale Force]

Try them unsoaked. They are not a big part of your diet it doesn't appear, so see if not soaking them makes it any better.