she's BREECH GRRRRRR!!!!

[Emma's_Mommy]

i went to the OB last week and saw the actual OB and not the nurse practicioner and we were talking about Emma's birth being a c-section, my plans for VBAC with this one, when we should schdule the amnio for induction (for a medical reason on my part so no flaming please), what i expected from the hospital staff as far as labor and stuff....and she asked me if i had any idea where the baby's head was.....

so she got out the doppler, and we poked at the baby and sure enough she is BREECH : just like my first baby was....and she's LOW...very very low, like feels like she's gonna fall out low!

SO now im in a panic a little bit, we schduled an ultrasound for 35 weeks, will do another one at 37 weeks to verify position again, but im just in a panic. My Ob was very good at calming me down and getting me relaxed, told me there was a bunch of different things we could try to move the baby, and that it was still early....but im still kind of sad and mad...i was really starting to get prepaired and psyched up for my VBAC and now my baby won't turn around!

someone please tell me there is nothing wrong with my uterus and that this baby will flip before 37 weeks :

and FYI i had my c-section with DD#1 at 39 weeks and she never did flip!

[dara00]

what week are you now? mine turned at 35 weeks!

[Robinna]

First off hon I just want you to KNOW that BREECH IS NORMAL. What is NOT normal is the way that north american OBs have permitted their skills to slip in catching breech babies. c/s is NOT safer than vag breech for either mama or baby, and vbac and vag breech do not exacerbate each others' risks. So... maybe there is something in your shape, as I believe there is something in my shape, and my CBB partner's shape, that causes our babies to choose to be breech. That does NOT mean there's anything wrong with us. My mother was a breech baby and so was my grandmother, and so was my daughter. I believe it's in the way we are shaped in my family. IT'S NORMAL. 3-4 babies out of every hundred are breech. That means that in my city alone, there's a breech baby born every single day, and on most days 2 of them are born. And at least half of those surgeries are unnecessary because there is no more risk in an experienced practitioner catching the baby than there is in an experienced practitioner slicing the mama open. I'll say it again. YOU ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. YOUR BABY IS NOT THE PROBLEM. The irresponsible OB policies that permitted them to deliberately drop their breech-catching skills - now THAT is a problem!!!

Tell your OB that. Read the real research papers (on the CBB website, link in my sig - there is a wealth of information there), and if it makes sense to you, demand a vaginal birth. A standard of care that does not allow us to choose between two equal-in-risk options is a SUB-standard of care, and it's not going to change until we stand up and tell them it's not acceptable. And it wouldn't hurt to point out to your practitioner that YOU KNOW that ACOG changed their guidelines in July of 2006 to state that in the absence of a definitive answer as to whether breeches are more safely delivered by c/s or by a normal catch, the choice of delivery mode should be offered to the mother. This is not on the CBB website yet but I have the text on my desktop and would be happy to email it to you, just PM me here or email me at CBB (the address is on the website).

It may be that the baby won't turn, you won't be able to find a practitioner to catch, and you will be cornered, as I was, into a c/s. But you don't have to allow it. You don't have to take it. I liken it to getting hit by a train. I could see the train coming, and I knew I might be stuck there, but damned if I was going to lie down for it. Please don't let them do this to you without at least telling them that you know they are wrong to not offer you the option of a vaginal birth.

But please, please, please don't imagine there's anything going on here that is less than normal in your body or your baby's position. It's the care standard that is not normal.

xo Robin

[Robinna]

Ugh me again.

IF you get cornered into a rcs for breech, you DO have the option of waiting until you go into labour. The OB will probably tell you your risks are higher and your recovery more difficult if you go into labour first. If these were really true, you'd think they'd be less cavalier about doing a c/s on so many mamas when all they really needed to do was to wait for her to clear her labour plateau. So decide FOR YOURSELF if this is important to you. There are a lot of really good reasons to go into labour. Babies can and do turn to vertex IN LABOUR. Just becuase they didn't schedule you until 39 weeks doesn't mean your baby would not have turned. It's less likely, yes. But it DOES happen. Myself, I wasn't going to deprive my baby or myself of a single moment in which she could possibly have flipped and avoided the surgery. Even if you know you're going to c/s if there's no flip, labour is good for babies. The ONLY way you know for sure that your baby is ready to come is if you go into labour. Labour preps them to breathe and be born. Babies who experienced labour before c/s have fewer breathing problems (and therefore required to be in the nursery for observation following birth) than those who don't. There are more, mamas here can tell you, I"m blanking.

They're also going to tell you taht you're at increased risk of cord prolapse with a breech baby. This is actually negligible unless you're carrying a footling, and then the risk is only slightly higher than any other baby who, like MOST BABIES WHO ARE NOT FIRST, isn't engaged when labour starts. So don't let 'em scare you with THAT one, either. (incidentally, I'm saying the risk is negligible because outcomes are equal between c/s and vaginal breech. Your cord prolapse risk is statistically slightly increased from vertex presentation, but risk of injury to the baby from prolapse compared to risk of injury to the baby during c/s is equal)

Nobody is saying that vaginal breech birth is not riskier than vaginal vertex birth. Sure, you have more risks with breech than vertex. However, you do NOT have more risks with breech than you do with major surgery.

It's your choice again if you are going to allow them to schedule your baby's birth-day to fit their routine, or if you're going to let your baby be born when s/he is ready, regardless of the mode of delivery.

Hugs hon. I know I come on really strong... I'm just passionate about this. Please know that if YOU CHOOSE c/s for your breech, I've totally got your back. I firmly believe it should be your choice to make. I just want you to know that you HAVE choices.

[hapersmion]

What Robinna said. And one more thing - if I were you, I'd at least consider getting out of the hospital. It sounds like, since you're having an amnio, that you might have separate medical issues, but it wouldn't hurt to do some research (NOT just ask the OB) and see if your situation is compatible with homebirth.

Not all midwives will attend breech births, and I'm sure that not all will attend VBACs, but there are some out there, so you do have choices, if you decide that's what you want. My first baby was breech (not a VBAC, sorry), and I LOVED my experience at the Farm, far away from a hospital. Everything was fine.

Either way, there are lots of things you can do. Everyone recommends spinningbabies.com, and there are positional exercises, chiropractic procedures, and all sorts of things you can try. (And you probably want to try ALL of them before considering an external version, which might be what your OB has in mind. I'd still try a version before a c-s, but mine was not much fun.)

Oh, and I'm sorry this is interfering with your enjoyment of the birth! I know, it's so stressful, just when you were getting to the homestretch! But hey, it looks like you are still not to 35 weeks yet, the baby will most likely just turn anyway.

hapersmion

[meatloafkend]

Okay, first of all, I TOTALLY understand your feelings. My first daughter was born via c-section due to a breech presentation. At my 32 week appointment the new baby was also found to be breech. i kept thinking there was something wrong with me. I cried for a day and had to get over it. I realized that my emotions and thoughts have a lot to do with where the baby will end up. I called a chiro who specialized in the webster technique, I started moxibustion (accupuncturists can show you how to do this on your own), and I started laying for about 20 minutes a day with my knees on the ground and my chest on the floor. This way my butt was in the air for 20 minutes to get the baby out of my pelvis if he/she was there. Sure enough, my baby is now in the head-down position. I talked about it on my blog a lot because I obsessed with it. Just know that you are not alone and that you have TONS of hope for a head-down baby

[missscarlett]

My third baby was caesarean because the hospital did not know how to deliver a breech baby. I did not have access to computer or internet so was not able to do any research. There were no books around and the magazines were not helpful. Why would the skills not be kept up, surely they are necessary for helping women to birth their babies? Ridiculous idea that breech babies can only be born from abdominal surgery!

When pregnant with my 4th baby, I finally had access to both computer and internet and found information on how to birth breech babies. I had spent the last few weeks of my pregnancy with my previous child hearing about what could go wrong and the negatives that in the finish, I gave in to the fears and had the caesarean birth.

You need to decide if you're going to birth your baby vaginally regardless of whether the baby is breech or head down and if you are then arm yourself with the knowledge on how to birth the baby out. Take print outs for the midwives and anyone else who needs to know.

I in 3 babies are being born by unnecessary surgery because the skills simply are not being kept up. The most natural thing a woman can do and that choice is being taken away.

Be strong and don't let anyone *bully* you into unnecessary surgery (unless you're happy with it of course).

[Emma's_Mommy]

I risk out of midwife care because of my medical condition.....and even if i didn't risk out the one birth center here (its in another hospital) in syracuse dosn't allow VBACs....and i NEED drugs!

my ob is very AP friendly, and said she would only do a version as a last resort......she really wants me to get the birth i want after the awful experience i had with my first birth (with a different OB)

man i wish the spinning babies website wasnt down right now!

[mtnsunshinemama]

moxa for breech babies is available at your local acupucturist starting at 34 weeks- about 75% effective!

[aswbarry]

Hugs Mama! You still have time. My VBAC baby was breech at 37 weeks and I panicked! I just couldn't have another c-sec.
I saw a chiropractor that specializes in the Webster technique (4 sessions), also spent some time feeling silly laying with my big butt in the air and my chest on the floor, gently talked to my baby a lot about turning when she was ready and I spent a lot of time visualizing the baby settling head first into my pelvis and sliding out the birth canal. This imagery prepared me emotionally and mentally for the VBAC as well.
She did turn week 38 in the night (I felt that turn!) and I was induced a few days later for my medical issue. My OB was willing to work with me on a version if necessary which I probably would have done had it come down to that. When she was born her cord was wrapped a few times around her ankle which may have been why she preferred the head up position.
I hope your babe turns for you soon!
Angela

[missscarlett]

Originally Posted by aswbarry

When she was born her cord was wrapped a few times around her ankle which may have been why she preferred the head up position.Angela

My daughter (breech, caesarean) was pulled out with the cord wrapped around her wrist and ankle. In hindsight, I accepted the caesarean for this reason, but there is always that question of "what would have happened if I did birth her naturally, if given the chance and support?".

[majormajor]

my daughter was transverse until 36 weeks and then flipped on her own. it happens! i used visualization, talked to her, DH talked to her, played music down by my crotch... all kinds of things.
a bit OT, but i also felt her flip. it was so cool. and weird. but then i knew she was head down, and i was so excited! unfortunately for my back during labor, she settled face out. ah well.

[julie128]

IMHO, if an OB isn't capable of attending a vaginal breech birth, s/he shouldn't be able to call him/herself an OB. What else is s/he not qualified to do? Really.

[missscarlett]

Originally Posted by julie128

IMHO, if an OB isn't capable of attending a vaginal breech birth, s/he shouldn't be able to call him/herself an OB. What else is s/he not qualified to do? Really.

Exactly!!!

[Emma's_Mommy]

Originally Posted by julie128

IMHO, if an OB isn't capable of attending a vaginal breech birth, s/he shouldn't be able to call him/herself an OB. What else is s/he not qualified to do? Really.

i do agree with this.....but she is the most non OB like OB i have been able to find that would take me on with my medical condition and not send me straight to c-section land!

and i also think alot of it is a liability issue, and the hospital staff would FREAK OUT if people started delivering breech babies out the vagina.....which is sad, but you have to work with what you're given right!

trust me i do plan on trying to induce labor naturally regardless of the baby's position, and if it s breech i will wait until the last possible second to go to the hospital.....serously what are they gonna do push the baby back in and do a secton b/c its bum first???

[mbudd310]

Originally Posted by Emma's_Mommy

trust me i do plan on trying to induce labor naturally regardless of the baby's position, and if it s breech i will wait until the last possible second to go to the hospital.....serously what are they gonna do push the baby back in and do a secton b/c its bum first???

This sounds really sensible to me. You go, girl!

[Robinna]

Originally Posted by julie128

IMHO, if an OB isn't capable of attending a vaginal breech birth, s/he shouldn't be able to call him/herself an OB. What else is s/he not qualified to do? Really.

Unfortunately this is largely the case across the states and in Canada because after the Term Breech Trial came out in 2002, all the OBs started doing surgery for c/s pretty much exclusively. So any ob who has come into practice since then has, though no fault of their own (except for their silence on the matter), not had an opportunity to gain any experience catching breeches unless they've trained internationally in a country were vaginal breech is still considered normal (Europe, some of Central/South America, etc.). So if you have a young OB, odds are very very good that their experience is limited to emergency training, which is done with a model pelvis and a doll (although a MW I know says the training IS very good and if they passed, they should be able to handle a breech delivery safely, although they'd be scared), and other than that, 2nd twins (since they tend to do c/s if the first twin is breech). It's stupid but it is, unfortunately, the case.

There are a few rebel OBs out there who have been catching breeches all along, but because of professional censure they have been obliged to do it in CYA form which means the mama has to show up pushing ("the presenting part is at the introitus") and formally refuse a c/s, so that they can say it was too late and they were "forced to".

Unfortunately again, most of these guys are senior OBs, which means most of them are pushing retirement. If we don't start agitating with ALL the OBs, and let them know that we expect them to have these skills and that it's not acceptable that they don't, all these guys are going to retire and all us mamas and our daughters are scr#wed.

ACOG changed their guidelines in July 2006 to say that experienced OBs can and should be offering vag breech to their clients. However it's very much at the OBs discretion and most would prefer to do a c/s so unless the mama agitates she's unlikely to find out that these guys are out there and ethically obligated to not cut her open. And there aren't very many of them... in my large city, I've still only found 5 OBs and 2 qualified MWs (and the MWs aren't allowed to catch in the hospital). In Canada it's still CYA because SOGC guidelines haven't changed yet to match the ACOG.

Anyway... I know many of you had this information already - but I think this is very important for everybody to know. If you want more please go see my website (in my sig) because after I got hit by this particular train I decided enough is enough and I cofounded the Coalition for Breech Birth, which is working right now to change the SOGC guidelines and to educate mamas so they know they're being snowed when an OB or MW says gee that's too bad you'll have to have a c/s. Please go see, and sign the petition...

xo Robin

[keriberry]

Originally Posted by Emma's_Mommy

I risk out of midwife care because of my medical condition.....and even if i didn't risk out the one birth center here (its in another hospital) in syracuse dosn't allow VBACs....and i NEED drugs!

my ob is very AP friendly, and said she would only do a version as a last resort......she really wants me to get the birth i want after the awful experience i had with my first birth (with a different OB)

man i wish the spinning babies website wasnt down right now!

Hello! No breech advice here but, I wanted to say hello from Rochester. I was so excited to see that there is a birth center in Syracuse til you said the no VBAC thing. I've had 2 VBAC's, maybe they'd make an exception. Yea right. Oh well, I'd probably end up birthing in the car anyways, it's just a little too far. Well, wishing you good baby turning vibes ~ keri

[Birth&Bunnies]

Originally Posted by Emma's_Mommy

trust me i do plan on trying to induce labor naturally regardless of the baby's position, and if it s breech i will wait until the last possible second to go to the hospital.....serously what are they gonna do push the baby back in and do a secton b/c its bum first???

Pusing the back back up and doing a c/s happened to a mom her on MDC, read this http://www.mothering.com/discussions...d.php?t=539679

[savvybabygrace]

Originally Posted by aswbarry

Hugs Mama! You still have time. My VBAC baby was breech at 37 weeks and I panicked! I just couldn't have another c-sec.
I saw a chiropractor that specializes in the Webster technique (4 sessions), also spent some time feeling silly laying with my big butt in the air and my chest on the floor, gently talked to my baby a lot about turning when she was ready and I spent a lot of time visualizing the baby settling head first into my pelvis and sliding out the birth canal. This imagery prepared me emotionally and mentally for the VBAC as well.

Angela

I did everything Angela did; Webster and other things, and my dd#2 just turned for me a few weeks ago. Don't accept what the OB said as the definite in what will happen. You have the power to take things into your own hands! I wish you all the best, mama!