Teaching Abstinance Until Marriage - Page 14

[angelpie545]

Originally Posted by Jwebbal

I appreciate some of what you wrote, but am confused? You talk about no sex outside of marriage being best, about marriage, that gay couples can teach their children about committed relationships, abstinence till marriage, and so forth, but these your opinions don't agree with your own opinions? I don't mean to challenge you, just which is it?

You are right, those opinions aren't my personal opinions. Sorry, I could have worded it a lot better, I'm just tired and a bit sniffly. : Let's see I'll try this again. My personal beliefs are: Sex outside of marriage *is* a sin. However, that is simply *my* personal opinion. That doesn't mean that my children have to live by it, or anyone else for that matter. What I was trying to say is that anyone can teach their children to have healthy relationships, no matter if they are of the opinion that sex outside of marriage is wrong.
Does that make sense?

What I was trying to get at, kinda, was that healthy relationships promote safe and secure sexual relationships. So no matter if marriage in involved, it is possible for a person to have a safe and healthy sexual relationship with someone. Also, even though I believe sex outside of marriage is a sin, I still did it myself. To condemn others for the same thing would be hypocritical. I don't want to be that way, I know that others are the same as me, and I would never want to condemn someone for doing something I myself did, even though I believe it is wrong in God's eyes.

[FoxintheSnow]

What an interesting thread. I havent read the whole lot, but a great deal of it. DH and I are planning to teach ds to use condoms and treat women (or men if thats the case) with respect and to respect himself. I cant imagine having waited for marriage. I feel like sleeping with someone is part of getting to know them. Its not everything but it's part of it. IME, How someone is in bed says a lot to me about who they are as a person.

[Brigianna]

I got through reading this whole thread; do I get a sticker for that?


To answer the original questions, we are teaching our kids a view of sexuality that is consistent with our religious beliefs, which is that sexual behavior should be reserved for marriage as we understand it. I'm not really concerned that they would choose to marry young because of this, first of all because I don't think it's as common as a lot of people think it is, and secondly because I don't think there's anything wrong with young marriage. Marrying young does not prevent you from going to college or being financially successful, which I don't think are the end-all be-all of what I want for my kids anyway, and biologically humans are meant to start mating and breeding in their teens and early twenties, so it isn't some unnatural thing. Of course there's nothing wrong with marrying older, either. I *do* think that it's undesirable to marry just for sex, whether you're 18 or 48, but we are also teaching that marriage is a lifelong commitment, not something to be entered into lightly, so I don't think we're encouraging sex-based marriages.

For us, chastity is an attitude and a way of life, not just "technical virginity." I suppose the "standard" I would use would be any act that involves one or both parties taking off his or her clothes is a sexual act that should be reserved for marriage, but obviously that's just sort of a general guideline. But I think if it's something you sincerely believe in, you're not looking for technicalities or loopholes.

And of course it's true that we can't make these choices for them, and we're not trying to. We're just teaching them what our values are, not only about this but about everything. Obviously they can choose to accept or reject those values. I don't think teaching them what we believe in is controlling their adult lives or anything like that.

I will say that I firmly disagree with the way that "abstinence" is taught in public schools and many churches, and it doesn't surprise me at all that statistically these programs don't "work."

About the issue of legal marriage, this is a sensitive issue and I don't want to criticize anyone's beliefs or choices, but for us marriage is not a legal issue, it's a spiritual issue. I really don't agree with government-sponsored "marriage" at all. And in our beliefs, marriage is a lifelong commitment between a man and a woman. So we do believe that it is not appropriate to practice any kind of sexual behavior with any person other than the person of the opposite sex with whom you've made a lifelong spiritual commitment. *However* these are our beliefs and I absolutely respect the fact that other people believe differently, and I completely support everyone's right to his or her own beliefs and choices. I'm not going to say that someone who believes differently or lives differently is wrong or anything like that. And if my kids grow up to believe differently or live differently, I will respect that.




And now I will quietly slink away.

[charmander]

I'm sorry, I don't get this whole "saving my virginity as a gift for my husband/wife on our wedding night."

It makes it sound like the human body is a commodity. That kinds of creeps me out.

[trmpetplaya]

We plan on encouraging our child(ren) to wait till they are ready emotionally for a possible child of their own to have sex (or for the sexual experience if it's not hetero since that wouldn't have the child possibility). I personally would prefer them to wait till marriage and will definitely tell them that at some point, but they will be educated about safe-sexual practises and it will be an open topic because I'd rather know and be trusted by my children than have a child of mine sneaking around behind my back with misinformation possibly contracting serious STDs that could have been prevented.

I do not expect my children to share my beliefs, but I want them to respect my beliefs (NOT follow them if they don't share them) the same way that I will respect whatever theirs are. I didn't wait till marriage, but did wait till I was dating dh. My parents would have disowned me had we gotten pregnant so I definitely researched bc at that time on my own. They never taught me anything but to wait till marriage. I would never disown a child of mine for any reason. Unconditional love is very important to me to show my children. Educating them to protect them and being open about the topic to allow them to feel comfortable coming to me with anything is also very important to me.

love and peace.

[captain crunchy]

Originally Posted by cmd

I'm sorry, I don't get this whole "saving my virginity as a gift for my husband/wife on our wedding night."

It makes it sound like the human body is a commodity. That kinds of creeps me out.

Yes! That is exactly what I was thinking. This whole business about asking the father "for his daughter" and that someone's virginity is a "gift they give their spouse" etc, makes it sound like the human body is a piece of property to be given away or asked for permission.

I think it is a ridiculous notion to put your expectations and beliefs on sex on the shoulders of your child (collective you). Of course, we all model and teach and hopefully empart our wisdom or kindness or respect for others... but dictating when and who your *adult* (or close) children share their bodies with consensually?

I don't want to teach my child that sex is shameful, or wrong, or ugly outside the confines of marriage. I hope to teach her throughout her young life (and not just in terms of sex) that her body is beautiful, and strong, and able and a work of God's perfect design. I plan to provide honest information in terms of how her body works, what it does, what to expect physiologically, hormonally (in general), and emotionally (according my my experiences). This information won't be exclusive to speaking of sex, but will be all inclusive (meaning we will have open discussions about anything she expresses a desire to have an open discussion about).

I plan to teach her that feeling sexual desire is nothing to be ashamed of and that it is completely normal and okay, and healthy. I plan to share my own experiences -- I have always felt better emotionally when I reserved my sexual intimacy for people I was in long-term, committed relationships with -- as I felt both emotionally and physically safer and closer -- but I won't make her sign a contract or anything that she will follow that path.

I will be very honest and frank about birth control, STDs, AIDS, and pregnancy. I don't believe whatsoever that providing that information leads to sex, but that a LACK of information and honest, non-judgemental discussion is a surefire way to have your children become sexually active.

Furthermore, I will be open with her about sexuality. She will know from an early age anyway that while many couples are opposite sexed, that love comes in many forms -- and that if love, respect and commitment are cornerstones of a relationship... it doesn't matter if it is a man/man/woman/woman/man/woman whatever... I will let her know that no matter what her preference in who she desires genderwise, her father and I love her, cherish her, and will never make her feel a lesser part of our family.

I will let her know that the God we worship doesn't send loving, respectful people to hell -- regardless of who they may be sleeping with (adult and consenting of course).

It is my aim to teach our daughter about respect for herself and others long before she even knows what sex is (we started at birth lol). Hopefully in teaching her respect for her self, her emotions, her body, and her mind --- simply by we, her parents, respecting her in all those ways and modeling that respect in our interactions with other people... she will expect a certain level of treatment and that expectation will carry into her mature, sexual relationships.

I want a loving, fulfilling sexual experience to be a gift that my daughter gives herself. Not a piece of herself she gives to a man (or woman).

[NaomiLorelie]

I have a question. Since waiting for marriage to have sex is more of a spiritual/religious thing, does gov't sanctioned marriage really have anything to do with it? Wouldn't a marriage in a gay/lesbian friendly church, or a commitment ceremony be the same thing even without being legally married? A marriage in a baptist church wouldn't be recognized if the couple decided to convert to say catholicism. I might look totally stupid asking this. I have no clue about these things.

[Galatea]

A woman having to "save herself" for marriage makes think that a woman has less worth without her hymen, and that thought makes me :Puke

In my cosmology, the ultimate force (god) isn't checking bedrooms.

[Jwebbal]

I have a question. Since waiting for marriage to have sex is more of a spiritual/religious thing, does gov't sanctioned marriage really have anything to do with it? Wouldn't a marriage in a gay/lesbian friendly church, or a commitment ceremony be the same thing even without being legally married? A marriage in a baptist church wouldn't be recognized if the couple decided to convert to say catholicism. I might look totally stupid asking this. I have no clue about these things.

I guess so, but I don't think the majority of the people saying in this thread that their children should wait till marriage till they have sex would recognize a same sex marriage in a church that did those. Do you? My church does indeed marry same sex couples, legally in places like Mass. and Canada, and not legally in all the other states. We could choose to have a ceremony in our church, but have not, even though we definitely consider ourselves married for all intents and purposes. We are just waiting for legal marriage in our state to do the whole shebang.

[Brigianna]

Originally Posted by NaomiLorelie

I have a question. Since waiting for marriage to have sex is more of a spiritual/religious thing, does gov't sanctioned marriage really have anything to do with it? Wouldn't a marriage in a gay/lesbian friendly church, or a commitment ceremony be the same thing even without being legally married? A marriage in a baptist church wouldn't be recognized if the couple decided to convert to say catholicism. I might look totally stupid asking this. I have no clue about these things.

Actually, I think the Catholic church would recognize a Baptist marriage and vice-versa, as long as the marriage was valid by that church's standards (they weren't already married to other people, etc.)

But, yes, I think most people who believe in chastity for religious reasons don't care about the legal aspect. For us, the commitment to each other before God is the "real" marriage, and the state marriage license is just a form so we can get insurance. Of course, most of us who believe in abstinance outside marriage and fidelity within marriage also believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, but it really has nothing to do with civil law.

Originally Posted by Galatea

A woman having to "save herself" for marriage makes think that a woman has less worth without her hymen, and that thought makes me :Puke

For most people who believe in chastity, it has absolutely nothing to do with the physical aspect of "technical virginity." It is more about the spiritual aspect of being intimate with only one person.

[mshollyk]

i just wanted to say to Jwebbal, thank you for all that you do!!!!!!!!!

i've already posted my thoughts and *very painful* experiences with abstinence only in this thread.

[Galatea]

Originally Posted by Brigianna

For most people who believe in chastity, it has absolutely nothing to do with the physical aspect of "technical virginity." It is more about the spiritual aspect of being intimate with only one person.

So what is the spiritual aspect of being intimate with only one person? If you aren't a virgin, does that make you less spiritual? Or does it make your marriage less spiritual, or less something?

[Brigianna]

Originally Posted by Galatea

So what is the spiritual aspect of being intimate with only one person? If you aren't a virgin, does that make you less spiritual? Or does it make your marriage less spiritual, or less something?

No, being a non-virgin certainly doesn't make you less spiritual (and of course you're not *supposed* to be a virgin if you're married). I'm only talking about *if* you believe that there's something positive, from a spiritual standpoint, about being intimate with only one person, with whom you've made a lifelong commitment. That it promotes a deeper bond if your partner is your "one and only" for life. If you don't believe that, then of course that doesn't mean anything to you, and that's okay. People can have different beliefs; I'm not saying you're wrong or anything. But the belief in chastity, at least as I understand it, really has nothing to do with having an intact hymen.




-

[Galatea]

Thanks for discussing so gently.

I still don't get it. I mean, if being a virgin for your husband makes for a deeper marital bond, then to me, that means that men love virgins more, or can't love non-virgins as much. Or that a man needs to totally own a woman for true love. What am I missing?

[Brigianna]

Originally Posted by Galatea

Thanks for discussing so gently.

I still don't get it. I mean, if being a virgin for your husband makes for a deeper marital bond, then to me, that means that men love virgins more, or can't love non-virgins as much. Or that a man needs to totally own a woman for true love. What am I missing?

Well, I don't think virginity has anything to do with "ownership," nor necessarily with gender (we believe chastity is important for both sexes, although I know traditionally there has been a double standard). And it isn't a matter of loving virgins more, but that there is something special about a relationship between two people who are committed exclusively to each other for life. And it makes the sexual act more special to know that you have only ever done it with him and he has only ever done it with you. I don't know that it's something that can be "explained," because it's not really a matter of logic or rationality.

For what it's worth, I consider myself to have been a virgin when I married my dh, but he was not. He was appreciative of the fact that I had waited for him and he wished that he had waited for me.

Basically it is taking the concept of monogamy to the next level--not only being exclusive to your partner while you're with him, but before, too.

I do sort of understand the arguments against it, and really there is no "reason" to practice either abstinence or monogamy, except for a religious or spiritual belief (which is why I'm against paying for abstinence ed with tax dollars but that's a whole other day's topic). So I think that people who don't share that belief probably mostly think it's pointless, just like people who don't believe in prayer think that's pointless, or people who don't believe in communing with nature tend to think that's pointless, but for people who believe, it makes sense... I don't know; it's not an "empirical" issue is what I mean.

[^guest^]

Have you ever seen Hogan Knows Best? Have you seen how Terry tries to be the Champion of his daughter's eternal virginity? It's creepy to me. It's downright disturbing. I don't think you can force a person to be a virgin unless you do as he does and monitor your child 24/7 until they are an old man/maid.

I think it's far more important to teach priorities and self-respect. If a child's priorities are in place, and they have enough self respect, they will not regret their decisions, whatever they are.

[Brigianna]

Originally Posted by Neoma

Have you ever seen Hogan Knows Best? Have you seen how Terry tries to be the Champion of his daughter's eternal virginity? It's creepy to me. It's downright disturbing. I don't think you can force a person to be a virgin unless you do as he does and monitor your child 24/7 until they are an old man/maid.

I think it's far more important to teach priorities and self-respect. If a child's priorities are in place, and they have enough self respect, they will not regret their decisions, whatever they are.

Okay, I promise I am not trying to be argumentative. But I have seen this point mentioned several times and I wanted to briefly address it. I read this entire long, 3-yr-old thread, and, although it's possible that I missed something, I don't recall *any* of the pro-abstinance people suggest that they would "enforce" abstinance, follow their adult children around, etc. I certainly would not. My children's choices, when they are old enough to make them, are entirely their own. I sincerely hope that they will have the right to make those choices, not only about this but about everything in their lives, without any kind of force or coersion. I don't think anyone is talking about "forcing" their kids to be chaste, which would of course be impossible without some seriously inappropriate control over an adult child. What we are talking about is teaching our values to our children. Teaching our values about sexuality in the same way we teach our values about everything else. Whether those values include waiting until you're married, or in a commited relationship, or having "safer" sex, or having self-respect, or whatever. I don't think the people who said they teach their children about birth control and "safer" sex are going to be spying on their adult children in the bedroom and saying "hey, are you using protection?" It is about communicating our values to our children.

[Peppermint]

Originally Posted by Brigianna

Okay, I promise I am not trying to be argumentative. But I have seen this point mentioned several times and I wanted to briefly address it. I read this entire long, 3-yr-old thread, and, although it's possible that I missed something, I don't recall *any* of the pro-abstinance people suggest that they would "enforce" abstinance, follow their adult children around, etc. I certainly would not. My children's choices, when they are old enough to make them, are entirely their own. I sincerely hope that they will have the right to make those choices, not only about this but about everything in their lives, without any kind of force or coersion. I don't think anyone is talking about "forcing" their kids to be chaste, which would of course be impossible without some seriously inappropriate control over an adult child. What we are talking about is teaching our values to our children. Teaching our values about sexuality in the same way we teach our values about everything else. Whether those values include waiting until you're married, or in a commited relationship, or having "safer" sex, or having self-respect, or whatever. I don't think the people who said they teach their children about birth control and "safer" sex are going to be spying on their adult children in the bedroom and saying "hey, are you using protection?" It is about communicating our values to our children.

Thank you! Very well said.

[annakiss]

Originally Posted by Brigianna

Of course, most of us who believe in abstinance outside marriage and fidelity within marriage

I would just like to point out that your religious believes don't give you a monopoly on morality and that lots of people believe in fidelity within a monogamous relationship without dictating who can and cannot be recognized as having made such a commitment.

[Brigianna]

Originally Posted by annakiss

I would just like to point out that your religious believes don't give you a monopoly on morality and that lots of people believe in fidelity within a monogamous relationship without dictating who can and cannot be recognized as having made such a commitment.

No, of course we don't have a "monopoly on morality." I never said that we did; I said that people are entitled to have different beliefs and I'm not going to say that they're wrong.

And we're not dictating who can be recognized, or at least I'm not. I totally support individual freedom of choice as long as you're not hurting someone else. That doesn't mean I personally agree with everyone's choices, but I'm not dictating them.