Teaching Abstinance Until Marriage - Page 3

[DebraBaker]

I guess I'm an odd combination of teaching the children *everything* I can about sex, how their bodies work, and how to prevent conception and how an unborn child develops.

I *also* believe it is better to wait until marriage to have sex.

Sex is the union of two people "the two become one flesh" this is a physical and spiritual union that should only be done within a committed relationship. I worry how people are hurt by having sex more causally.

To be honest I think my first and second have had premarital sex. But they *knew* what they were doing and I have maintained an openness with them.

My firstborn married when she was 23 (last year) and my secondborn is marrying this month (she's 22)

Debra Baker

[ameliabedelia]

deleted cause I no longer post about controversial issues on MDC

[its_our_family]

Originally posted by Stonehenge
I do NOT belong to my father! He does NOT have any say over who touches me or how! The very thought nauseates me.

This cracks me up! Because my dad said the thought of someone asking him this type of thing gave him the willies! He said what I do behind closed doors is my business

When dh asked me to marry him he said...should I ask your dad. I looked at him and said..If you ask he'll just say "Why would you ask...I'm not marrying you!"

Obviously no one agrees with my view on dating Dh said I was an odd duck on that one...so I'm not surprised

I will teach my son what I think is right. If he chooses to not go along with we have taught...there will be dscussion, questions, probably some tears...but he will still be my son. I won't change my love for him because we do not agree. I'll do what I can to keep him safe.....because I love him and will do what is best for him.

[AdinaL]

An analogy is a piece of tape. Imagine that having sex is like sticking the tape to something. Each time the tape sticks to a different thing, it loses it stickiness. By the time the tape, finds the right thing to stick to much of it's stickiness is gone, and it falls apart easily when life happens (someone loses a job, or a child gets sick, or the cute coworker starts to flirt or whatever)

I highly disagree with this and find it a little insulting honestly.

Just because I had sex with someone other than my husband prior to being married....does not mean I have no ability to deal with problems that arise or that our marraige will fall apart any eaiser than any one else's. That has to do with your level of commitment, your relationship, your communication...not how many times you had sex prior to being with your spouse.

It also makes it sound as though your ability to connect with a partner through sex has a limited life span..."You may only have a deep spiritual connection with X amount of people and then sex will cease ot be anything other than mutual masturbation. " Hardly.:

[asherah]

Amelia:

This is from the National Center on Health Statistics:

Duration of marriage is linked to a woman’s age at first marriage; the older a woman is at first marriage, the longer that marriage is likely to last. For example, 59 percent of marriages to brides under 18 end in separation or divorce within 15 years, compared with 36 percent of those married at age 20 or over.


This is from Barna.org research on line:

Born again Christians are just as likely to get divorced as are non-born again adults. Overall, 33% of all born again individuals who have been married have gone through a divorce, which is statistically identical to the 34% incidence among non-born again adults.

While college graduates are typically more liberal in their political views and lifestyle than adults who lack such a degree, adults who have a college degree and have been married are comparatively less likely to get divorced. Thirty-one percent of college grads that have been married have been divorced versus 36% of adults who did not earn a college degree and have been married.

Residents of the Northeast and West are commonly noted for their more liberal leanings in politics and lifestyle. However, the region of the nation in which divorce was least likely was the Northeast. In that area, 28% of adults who had been married had also been divorced, compared to 32% in the Midwest, 35% in the South, and 38% in the West.

This is from a study out of Ohio State University:
The probability of divorce for a 20-year-old is not the same as a 40-year-old. The 40-year-old has less of a chance of divorce.


I could go on, because I found this stuff all over the web.
So I'd love to see all these studies that say otherwise.

[Greaseball]

If someone wanted to hug or kiss dd, I fully expect them to ask HER! Not me or dh!

My dh still asks permission to show affection to me. He doesn't call up my dad and ask him!

I read that the material used in abstinence-only education is not medically accurate. The diagrams of the female anatomy show no clitoris, and the clitoris is not mentioned in the glossary. Don't our kids deserve to know ALL about the body?

Do people really think that married couples never have unplanned pregnancies that devastate them? Married women also have abortions, sometimes more than one. If you really don't want a child, it won't be easier for you just because you're married.

Also, if one expects a girl to abstain, I say that goes for boys too. I have known married couples where the man was not a virgin when he got married to a woman who was, and surprise! The woman now has herpes! So much for doing all the right things.

STD's can be spread through other means. You can get genital herpes without having sex or oral sex. (If you kiss someone with oral herpes, you can get oral herpes, which you can then spread to your genitals.) Also, there are virgins who share needles to inject drugs. This can spread HIV and hepatitis. Crabs and lice can be spread by making out.

When I was a teenager I was not allowed to spend the nights with boys, not even with my best friend (a boy) who was gay! My brother, OTOH, was allowed to sleep over at his girlfriend's house starting when he was 15. He got a girl pregnant (a different girl) senior year. I never got pg until I was 22, though I had been having sex since, well, before age 15, I will put it that way. I don't think the double standard was a wise parenting style to use here...

[sozobe]

OK, let me toss something out there. A lot of the discussion so far has dealt with sex within a committed relationship. I am, thankfully, a ways away from having to deal with this with my dd (scares the snot out of me, too), but one thing I think I would teach my dd is that she is allowed to like sex in and of itself. It's fun. It's long bothered me that there is this whole thing that men just want to get laid while women want this pure, spiritual sex with a lifetime partner.

While I will most definitely teach my daughter about the emotional pitfalls and health risks of having casual sex, I don't think I want to get into saying that the only sex that is ever OK is in a long-term, committed relationship. If appropriate precautions are taken at all levels -- physical and emotional -- I think it is sometimes OK to have what is usually defined as "casual" sex if that is what she wants.

I just think it is kind of a dangerous trope, this whole idea that men want sex all the time and women will occasionally give in for some spiritual connection (not saying that's what has been said here, btw, speaking more generally), and want my daughter to be secure in her sexuality and have control of it. Women are horny, too, and that's OK.

[mamawanabe]

I don't feel like looking this up - is it true that college grads are more left-leaning than non college grads?

I'd like to think aso (cause then I'd feel all valdated - see educated people are democrats), but I'm a little suspicious of the stat.

Also, college grad and east-coast/west-coast lower divorce rate probably has more to do with marrying later than political/religious leanings. I imagine these three groups marry later than non-college grads and people in the South and West. Though there may be a connection between less religious, more sexually active, less likely to marry young thus more likely to stay married . . .

I like the idea of young virgin marriages (growing up together and all) - but what a disaster if I had partnered with the man I loved at 18, or at 22 (and at the time I really thought they were the "one"). Took me til I was almost 26 to learn how to pick 'em -and I picked a good one then who I'm still with at 32

[BathrobeGoddess]

I have been thinking about the "birds and the bees" for a couple weeks now. My dd is 8 and my DH and I are currently talking about TTC and me charting my cycle. This has brouhgt up some questions from her about when and how she was conceived.

That leads me to my own personal story:

I was brought up in a very strict family. I wasn't allowed to date untill I was 17 (senior year in high school) and I wasn't taught much about sex. Sex was dirty and behind closed doors. Masterbation was shamful, sex before marriage was a mortal sin.

This was awful for me because I was and am a very sexual person. I have had major problems with self-lothing, self-shaming, and low self-esteem due to the fact that I am very sexual.

I have felt that I was a dirty person untill my middle twenties when I got some help for my problems with my sexuality.


I was married at 19 and divorced at 25. My ex-husband and I lost our virginies to each other when we were 16 but we didn't date because I wasn't allowed, we had sex in the car or at his house. I became pregant at 18 (I didn't know anything about birth control except condoms and those fail!) and we married before dd was born. My ex had 12 sexual affairs during our marriage. I only stayed with him as long as I did because of this warped idea that I had only had sex with him so I must stay with him.

So I will not teach my dd they way I was. She will have every fact about sex I can find. ANd we will talk about sex in a nonshamful way.

I was lucky that I had the good sense to get out of a bad marraige, found a great therapist and got my self-worth back.

[Arduinna]

Great replies you guys!!!

ok, I just had to say this. Is anyone else bothered by the term "pure" in association with virginity?? You just cannot use the term pure without implying impure. And frankly I refuse to by into this idea that someone is more pure or better because they are a virgin. woo, just had to say that.

Speaking again about sleep overs, as I was thinking about my teen years I remembered that I had a very good male friend that I used to spend the night with. We never had sex, as we weren't interested in each other that way. This was in the 70's and we were teens and slept in the same room although not in the same bed. I remember having discussions with our parents about it, and reinforcing that neither of us was interested in each other that way. I learned alot about having a close relationship with a man that didn't involve sex. And I was already sexually active then too. Although my parents didn't know that.

"An analogy is a piece of tape. Imagine that having sex is like sticking the tape to something. Each time the tape sticks to a different thing, it loses it stickiness. By the time the tape, finds the right thing to stick to much of it's stickiness is gone, and it falls apart easily when life happens (someone loses a job, or a child gets sick, or the cute coworker starts to flirt or whatever) "

you've got to be kidding right?? In all honesty, I suspect immaturity has much more to do with relationships falling apart.

I'm not jealous in the least of my dh extensive past experience with other women, and he isn't jealous of mine. In fact when we talk about it, as we sometimes do, I'm happy for the adventures that he has had. I didn't always feel that way though. I used to be jealous, but as my faith in myself and us grew I no longer needed jealousy. This too comes from maturity, I don't need to be the "best sex he ever had in his life", or the only sex he ever had in his life. It isn't a contest. There isn't a limited amount of love in the world, or even love that I or he can give or receive. So I don't need the tape because it just isn't true. At least not for us anyway. I don't limit myself in love like that, and I'm a happy person because of it.

[its_our_family]

Originally posted by Greaseball

I read that the material used in abstinence-only education is not medically accurate. The diagrams of the female anatomy show no clitoris, and the clitoris is not mentioned in the glossary. Don't our kids deserve to know ALL about the body?

Do people really think that married couples never have unplanned pregnancies that devastate them? Married women also have abortions, sometimes more than one. If you really don't want a child, it won't be easier for you just because you're married.

Also, if one expects a girl to abstain, I say that goes for boys too. I have known married couples where the man was not a virgin when he got married to a woman who was, and surprise! The woman now has herpes! So much for doing all the right things.

...... NO clitoris!!! what would sex be without the happy button!

Even I DISagere with the whole tape analogy. Even if a person has sex before marriage I can't see how this is true. I think married couples who marry as virgins have issues with sex...even inside of their relationship.

I think there is a misunderstanding of what sex is actually for. I have friends that have grown up and their marriages have problems because the wives have issues with sex. They don't see it as a fun activity to do with their spouse. They see it as an obligation...and maybe that was because growing up we were constantly told...sex in marriage sex in marriage...you do it for them.....

I for one will have the attitude that my parents had with us. Sex is a wonderful thing. Its fun and exciting.....don't be ashamed of your body. I just think it is important to not have a "whatever" attitude about sex. (Not saying that anyone here has said that or even given that impression ) I think it is something that is important enough to wait for.....and I'm as horney as they come My dh and I fooled around before we were married...did we go to far..probably...do I regret it...some...only because I had had enough self control for 20 yrs and then...WOOOOOSH!!

[3boys4us]

I guess the idea of a virgin at marriage has never been a thought for me. I've never thought my kids would be. I wasn't neither was their father. The fact is that we both had other partners and it has never been an issue in our marriage.

OT: What I find ironic (and it may be my perception) is that when I read posts about marital problems - much of it seem to have to do with partners who place such a high value on their sexual/marital relations that it overwhlems them if its not perfect for whatever reason. IMO the experience of other partners does not make the marital relations less special but more special because we all have learned from our mistakes.

The co-ed sleepover thing makes me leary though - I agree with whoever posted about allowng kids to go to the party but not to the sleepover.

[Greaseball]

I also do not like the word "pure" as it's like saying there is something impure or dirty about sexuality.

I think what really matters is being a nice person. I don't think that how old you are when you have sex or how many partners you have or when you have sex or the nature of your relationship really has anything to do with someone's character. It's easy and tempting to paint non-virgin teens as drug users, dropouts, or people with no futures, but I'm sure we all know nice people who have sex while not married and mean people who are virgins.

I bet at least half of us here have had sex before marriage. And I bet those people don't classify themselves as losers with no futures, even if they do wish they had waited.

[Arduinna]

I did a poll about this last year some time. I did a search and couldn't find it, so I guess it got culled. Anyway, it was above 90 % were not virgins when they got married. Not that it matters, but I figured I'd mention it.

[Serena]

Originally posted by ameliabedeliaky

And, our relationship is so much better for it. We know how to show love and affection to each other without being sexual. We play around and are affectionate without it necessary leading to sex. I have NEVER once felt used by husband or felt that he wanted to have sex only for pleasure. EVERY time we have sex, it is a spiritual, deep connection, we are uniting ourselves deeper to each other. We certainly enjoy the pleasurable aspects of sex, but it is NOT about pleasure for us. It is about love, and connection, and uniting ourselves to each other. It is always deeply emotional and initimate, never shallow or empty.

I'm sure for you the success of your relationship with your husband and the fact of your abstinence are closely linked, but I can assure you many people experience exactly what you're describing regardless of prior sexual experience. Although in my case, I actually LIKE having sex with my dh for pleasure. Even, sometimes, just for pleasure!!!

[Piglet68]

One thing I don't understand is the suggestion that if you've had multiple partners, then you "compare" them. So your DH would be "compared" to previous partners, so it goes...

This just never happens for me. Sex with a partner is as unique as the whole relationship with a partner, and comparing any aspect of it just seems....pointless. I don't know anybody who "compares", and I know I don't.

************************

mod note: Loving all the POV here; again I'm going to remind everyone this topic has the potential to become heated. The "abstainers" are a minority here - let's not pick on them by name; keep comments directed to the general audience. Thanks!

[Lil'M]

This whole thread is so interesting. There are elements I agree to on both sides. I personally do think that I want my girls to learn to relate to their partners on an emotional level way before they become really sexually active with them.

I actually met my husband when we were freshmen in college and we got married after graduation, when I was 21. It was definitely young compared to my friends, but when you have been together 4 years, how much longer should we have waited to get married? Not that we waited to have sex until we were married...

My personal opinion, based on my own experience and not necessarily true for others here, is that it isn't necessary to practice sex with lots of partners to get it right with the one you finally marry. The best sex I've had has been with men I had a deep emotional connection with, and who respected me as much as I respected them. And they were both virgins! The men I slept with who were more experienced didn't really care about me and were insensitive lovers. (Ok, you're thinking how many were there before she met her husband? Don't ask.)

I think really good sex with another person can happen when your partner really cares about you. I'm sure casual sex has its moments too, but not for me.

I don't really expect that my daughters will be virgins when they get married or that they will be as young as I was when they get married. But I plan on telling them everything, and I'm trying to develop the kind of relationship with them where they can feel comfortable coming to me to talk about anything. And I will definitely share my feelings with them about the emotional ramifications of sex and choosing partners carefully when they are really ready.

I hope I can help them develop the kind of self esteem that will enable them to make responsible choices for themselves, and not do a bunch of things they regret the way I did.

The way my kids are right now (aged 2 1/2 and 6), anything I tell them not to do they just want to do more, so I'm guessing that won't be a great strategy as they get older either.

[ameliabedelia]

statistics

deleted cause I no longer post about controversial issues on MDC

[its_our_family]

Re: statistics

Originally posted by ameliabedeliaky
Actually I was NEVER told "you do it for them" I have never believed that and I don't know anyone who shares my values who belives that. I know several friends who waited until marriage. I have never heard anyone who waited say they feel used, they have sex for their husband or that they "do it for them" Of the people I know, we all have mutally satisfying sexual relationships with our spouses. I nor anyone I know had EVER seen sex as an obligation.

With my husband and I, during sex we do things to mutually please each other. It is about coming together, and uniting ourselves. No one does anything "just for the other person, just to please them" It is NEVER an obligation or something one person HAS to do for the other.

I didn't say I believed that....quite the opposite. Sex in our house is a fun thing. If one or the other isn't in the mood we tell the other and we go on. My friends all took the whole "sex in mariage" thing as an obligation. that was there own interpretation. Its like they see sex as a duty. They will, to your face, tell you that sex isn't something they find important or enjoy or even remotely find satisfying. I think if sex is looked down on that as a child grows up they see sex as a bad thing...even in marriage.

this is why I think it is important to be honest with your child that sex is a good wodnerful thing...but INSIDE of marriage. just my honest opinion.

[cumulus]

"Nearly four out of 10 young women get pregnant at least once before they turn 20." http://www.teenpregnancy.org/resourc...acts/fact1.asp

"The big deal is 12 million Americans--3 million of whom are teens--who get a new STD every year. We now have more than 25 signiificant STDs, before 1960 we had two.
"Restoring the Teenage Soul" MJ Meeker MD

Dr Meeker feels that not teaching abstinance is to fail to teach control, self-control within a culture that generally fails to teach self-control. To not expect them to abstain is to say you do not feel they have the ability to control themselves

My sister-in-law told her two sons as soon as they had a girlfriend, "The absolute worse thing you can do to a girl is to get her pregnant." I steer my daughters towards abstinance. The risks make it a practical matter. The possibilty that they might develop their ability to control themselves and resist peer pressures and keep a longer view of life and gain a greater sense that they control the direction of their lives seems to me something that might make the experience of their lives more interesting, more considered and makes it a spiritual matter.